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Old 06-07-2008, 02:11 PM   #26
IndyJr.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostArk
Yeah, since Indy's dad was always there for him in ToD

buuuurrrnnnn....
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Old 06-07-2008, 02:35 PM   #27
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MonarchoftheSea:Both had a song during the opening titles.

I thought the same thing! Both had popular songs of the era in the credits. I think there are similarities to each of the previous movies in this film, not just TOD. I think TOD has improved over the past few years and I think it'll be the same with KOTCS. I think KOTCS will actually have a faster chance of being reappraised. There are still things about Temple that KOTCS doesn't that will make it disliked by some people like the horror stufff, and the racist, sexist overtones. I think people will get over the sci-fi in KOTCS more than the dark aspects in TOD and KOTCS also has less annoying characters(though personally I like Willie and Short Round).

For me I like the action more in TOD but I like Indy as a character much more in KOTCS.
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Old 06-07-2008, 02:45 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Spalko
Nah, more like Scarface to Free Willy.

TOD is not that bad. I can't see how you can compare TOD to Free Willy (unless you mean when Indy is trying to rescue her from the lava drop)...
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Old 06-07-2008, 02:52 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
TOD is not that bad. I can't see how you can compare TOD to Free Willy (unless you mean when Indy is trying to rescue her from the lava drop)...

He meant Scarface was ToD (a dark movie) and KOTCS was Free Willy (a light movie).
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Old 06-07-2008, 04:06 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by MolaRam2
ToD is my favorite movie of all time. It represents what I love about movies. It is the perfect blend of action, adventure, and horror. ToD is an extremely unique film, there is non-other like it. The closet film to it is probably Raiders.
ToD set a standard for entertainment that no other movie has met IMO.

Amen. It's the defining action adventure film for me.
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Old 06-07-2008, 06:05 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MolaRam2
He meant Scarface was ToD (a dark movie) and KOTCS was Free Willy (a light movie).

I was being sarcastic as I don't agree... and you clearly didn't get the Free Willie gag
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Old 06-07-2008, 06:30 PM   #32
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I think that too. In ten years people are going to be loving KOTCS.
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Old 06-07-2008, 06:36 PM   #33
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The biggest similarity is that they are both great movies
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Old 06-07-2008, 08:39 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
I was being sarcastic as I don't agree... and you clearly didn't get the Free Willie gag

I get the gag.
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Old 06-09-2008, 01:36 AM   #35
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maybe KOTCS should've opened with a dance number too

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchOfTheSea
Both had a song during the opening titles.
the song and dance at the beginning of ToD, 'Anything Goes', properly set the tone for the cartoony movie that it was. When they escape the plane using the raft, I wasn't thrown off because the tone had been set by the opening dance number and action sequence that followed.

Here in KOTCS, we have cartoony escapes from peril (the fridge, Tarzan, duck in the tree, etc.), but Spielberg didn't direct the rest of the film in a tone to match. If KOTCS had opened with something like a dance number and an opening action sequence choreograped to a band playing in the background like in ToD, then the refrigerator wouldn't have been such a 'wtf was that?' moment.
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Old 06-09-2008, 01:41 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders of Clay
I think that too. In ten years people are going to be loving KOTCS.

That's what people said almost 10 years ago about Phantom Menace.
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Old 06-09-2008, 01:46 PM   #37
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People always say TOD is dark, but I don't feel that way about it at all, I can see where the "dark" aspect arises (the cult) but generally I think TOD and KOTCS are very cartoony/comic book movies (and that isn't actually an insult or bad thing, it gives them "colour").

Raiders is the grittiest, and Last Crusade follows, with more humour. I see Kotcs/Tod as "sisters" and Raiders and Last Crusade as "brothers".

By the way, concerning the fridge, most people just found it amusing when it occured and didn't make any "wtf?" noises or reactions, on the 4 times I viewed it. One woman near me was deff a fan of the older movies (I could hear here talking about them etc) and she loved the new one.

Concerning Phantom Menace (forgetting Jar Jar) I felt that PM was the one that felt the most like the originals (saying a lot isn't it?) -(ONLY because they spent time on Tatooine...). Really wsn't a fan of the prequels.
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Old 05-20-2010, 01:31 PM   #38
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ToD and KOTCS

I've noticed a couple of similarities between TOD and KOTCS:

1) Both start with music that immediately announces the period in which the film is taking place--TOD, set in 1935, starts with Anything Goes, a song produced in 1934 and huge throughout 1934 and 1935 and a very 1930s dance performance with it; KOTCS, set in 1957, starts off with Hound Dog and Hot Car Racing, the song that many feel launched the Rock N' Roll era and was huge even into 1957 and the latter an activity popular amongst 1950s youth.

2) Both feature non-Nazi enemies--The Thuggies in TOD and the Soviets in KOTCS.

3) Both feature 'kid' sidekicks--Short Round in TOD, Mutt in KOTCS. Both sidekicks wear very American clothes fitting to the period--Shot Round in his yankees cap, Mutt in his leather early rock n' roller outfit.

4) Both films' artifacts are non-Christian and not very well known.

5) Both were commercial hits yet received mixed reviews.

6) Both don't start off with a separate Pre-Adventure Adventure sequence--the pre-Adventure sequences in TOD and KOTCS directly tie into and lead to the events of both films and don't exist as the final act of a previous separate adventure.

7) Both feature improbable or impossible actions and/or stunts--In TOD the parachute landing, the heart being ripped out of a man's chest and him staying alive, the mine cart jump, the straw bridge; In KOTCS, the nuclear scene as well as Mutt's vine swinging.

8) Both feature very limited to no gun play--There is only minor gun play in TOD as compared to Raiders, and no gunplay in KOTCS as compared to the limited gunplay in LC. Both feature limited whip-work, and in both cases the whip work is limited to swinging, not used offensively.

9) Both feature explorations in a dark, cobwebbed and eerie chamber of bodies--the first parts of the temple in TOD with the dead bodies and the graveyard in KOTCS.

10) Both films feature insects as the creatures the ''ick'' scene--A variety of bugs in TOD and the Ants in KOTCS, whereas in Raiders it was snakes and LC it was rats.

11) Both feature aspects of the supernatural not really tied with Judeo-Christian religious miracles--TOD features as it's main supernatural element Voodoo and Hindu ''spell-casting'', and KOTCS' main supernatural element is the Interdimensional Beings power and Psychic powers; Both are negative powers (Voodoo and Psychic power used to control and enslave one's enemy, whereas the Ark could be used to grant it's user's allies power beyond imagination and the Grail could heal and immortalize anyone who drank or was touched by it's water--More positive power).

Last edited by Raiders112390 : 05-20-2010 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 05-20-2010, 01:39 PM   #39
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Yes, both films do stand out as different from Raiders and Last Crusade.

If it's a pattern that every even numbered film will deviate from the format of Raiders, then Indy V should please the fans who grew up with the orginal.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:12 PM   #40
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.. and Spielberg will make the next one as an apology for the previous one!
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:14 PM   #41
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Thread merged.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:29 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakis
.. and Spielberg will make the next one as an apology for the previous one!

...and from his recent comments it looks like Shia has ruled himself out... which will leave Indy centre stage and free to be Indy-pendant.
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:35 PM   #43
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He did? When? Thank God. I always thought any new Indy movie should not deal with family issues again. Crusade was wonderful but it can't be recaptured.
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:02 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Sakis
He did? When? Thank God. I always thought any new Indy movie should not deal with family issues again. Crusade was wonderful but it can't be recaptured.

Montana Smith was referring to this.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:42 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
Montana Smith was referring to this.

It's wishful thinking that he really has ruled himself out. It's also wishful thinking that only the odd numbered movies will be the 'challenging' ones.
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Old 05-21-2010, 01:23 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I've noticed a couple of similarities between TOD and KOTCS:

Most of these are just minor coincidences that have no larger thematic, structural or narrative significance at all.

You could easily come up with dozens of false "patterns" between any number of the films -

"Raiders and "Doom" both feature scenes where Indy is not wearing his leather jacket.

"Crusade" and "Skull" both feature scenes at a train station.

"Doom" is the only film not to include a scene on a boat.

"Crusade and Skull" both feature a motorcycle chase.

And so on....

Just about the only thing significant on your list is your #4 (which you repeat with #11.)




Quote:
2) Both feature non-Nazi enemies--The Thuggies in TOD and the Soviets in KOTCS.

Yes, the Russians are not Nazis, but they are basically treated in the same manner - a large sinister foreign army goes against Indy and is far more well-equipped and full of resources than he is. They hope they artifact will given them a strategic advantage over their political enemies.

Pretty similar, actually.

Quote:
3) Both feature 'kid' sidekicks--Short Round in TOD, Mutt in KOTCS. Both sidekicks wear very American clothes fitting to the period--Shot Round in his yankees cap, Mutt in his leather early rock n' roller outfit.

Actually, Short Round's clothes are Chinese, except for his baseball cap. (Which is actually not a Yankee cap.) And, of course everyone in the film wears clothes "fitting to the period." 'Cept maybe the Grail Knight.

Quote:
4) Both films' artifacts are non-Christian and not very well known.

Granted. But the Ark ain't Christian either.

Quote:
6) Both don't start off with a separate Pre-Adventure Adventure sequence--the pre-Adventure sequences in TOD and KOTCS directly tie into and lead to the events of both films and don't exist as the final act of a previous separate adventure.

Here you're just plain wrong. ToD's prologue is absolutely a "separate adventure." Different story, different quest/macguffin, different location and even an entirely different antagonist (whereas Raiders used the prologue to introduce Belloq.)

The only thing different from "Raiders" and "Crusade" is that the opening happens to lead chronologically and geographically into the rest of the film. But it's a completely separate sequence.

KOTCS is actually the one that breaks the pattern set by the first films, as it introduces the story and villains which carry over into the rest of the movie.

Quote:
7) Both feature improbable or impossible actions and/or stunts--In TOD the parachute landing, the heart being ripped out of a man's chest and him staying alive, the mine cart jump, the straw bridge; In KOTCS, the nuclear scene as well as Mutt's vine swinging.

The raft landing is not impossible. The mine jump is extremely unlikely, but it's the only moment like that in the film.

The heart rip is a supernatural element - all of the films have them.

KOTCS' action sequences, IMHO, go way too far in an unrealistic and cartoonish direction that the earlier films (esp. Raiders and Doom) didn't.

Quote:
8) Both feature very limited to no gun play--There is only minor gun play in TOD as compared to Raiders, and no gunplay in KOTCS as compared to the limited gunplay in LC. Both feature limited whip-work, and in both cases the whip work is limited to swinging, not used offensively.

There's actually very little gunplay in any of the films. I can think of only two instances in Raiders (I'm sure there are a few more) where Indy shoots anyone.

In "Doom", he loses his gun, but that's after shooting it quite a bit (with confirmed kills) in the opening chase.

In "Crusade" he only kills the one Nazi with his own machine gun.

And nothing, IRRC, in "Skull."

The movie with the LEAST whipwork is "Crusade" where it is used only twice and never offensively.

Indy DOES use the whip in "Doom" during a fight.

Quote:
9) Both feature explorations in a dark, cobwebbed and eerie chamber of bodies--the first parts of the temple in TOD with the dead bodies and the graveyard in KOTCS.

Plenty of bodies and cobwebs in both the Peruvian Temple and Well of Souls in "Raiders."

Quote:
11) Both are negative powers (Voodoo and Psychic power used to control and enslave one's enemy, whereas the Ark could be used to grant it's user's allies power beyond imagination and the Grail could heal and immortalize anyone who drank or was touched by it's water--More positive power).

The Ark's power, as described and demonstrated in the film, lies in its ability to destroy the enemies of its possessor. That's pretty damned negative.

The powers of the stones and skull were pretty ill-defined. However, the stones were created to "combat evil", which sounds pretty positive to me.

The Grail is the only outwardly "positive" artifact in the bunch (which explains why the Nazis interest in it was pretty much glossed over and not explained in the film.)
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:14 PM   #47
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You make some good points, as always, Lance. There's no denying that you can find connections/similarities between different movies if you look for them.

Yet, the over-riding factor, for me at least, is that both TOD and KOTCS have a different feel to them, compared with ROTLA and LC. It's not a bad thing, as the difference creates a broader canvass.

TOD was a product of Lucas and Spielberg's personal situations at the time, which both admitted made for a darker, different style of movie. KOTCS is the product of many more years of planning, factoring in the increased ages of the characters.
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Old 06-10-2010, 11:10 AM   #48
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Both Kingdom and Temple feature 2 posters that were used for theaters or for home release. Both have one of Indy standing solo with whip in hand, and the other shows all character's faces with Indy's being the biggest.









Also, both films have "bugs." Temple(insects/centipedes) Kingdom(scorpions/ants)
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Old 06-10-2010, 11:51 AM   #49
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Both relied more heavily on soundstages and special f/x.
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:52 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -ND-
Both Kingdom and Temple feature 2 posters that were used for theaters or for home release. Both have one of Indy standing solo with whip in hand, and the other shows all character's faces with Indy's being the biggest.









Also, both films have "bugs." Temple(insects/centipedes) Kingdom(scorpions/ants)

Those are perfect similarities -ND-
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