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Old 06-29-2010, 02:21 AM   #1
Dr.Jonesy
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"Lucas raped a perfect franchise!"-but not Indy?

I've been reading alot about the 'Prequels' lately, and comparing their reception to that of KOTCS. And the thing that strikes me the most about an article or blog about George Lucas is that when they mention him 'ruining' or 'raping' a franchise, they only mention Star Wars. And these articles are post-2008, mind you.

So why isn't KOTCS mentioned if most everyone thought it was a poor movie that raped a franchise? Do people not care about Indy at all? You'd think they'd mention it in an article about him destroying beloved franchises. This post isn't a "in defense of KOTCS" thread, by the way. Cause I'm still mixed about the film myself. I just want to know why the heck they'd leave Indy out of the argument that Lucas is a hack.

So any ideas on why people leave Indy out of the discussion? And how does the fan/general audience's reaction to KOTCS compare to the 'Prequels'?


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Old 06-29-2010, 06:48 AM   #2
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I have no idea but maybe.........

......the original SW movies are more of cultural phenomenon than the Indy movies and are held in higher regard?

......the SW movies are viewed as better movies than the Indy films?

......because its a joint collaboration with Speilberg?

......KOTCS isnt the disaster that some of this think it is?

......KOTCS is a viewed as a better film than any of the prequels?

But on a personal level I was more disappointed with KOTCS than any of the SW prequels.
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:57 AM   #3
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Well, Lucas cranked out a whole trilogy of bad prequels for SW, but only one bad sequel to Indy (so far -- that said, I'd pay my 10 bucks to see 13 more bad Indy sequels as long as Ford was in them).

And among Indy fans, the sentiment that Lucas raped that franchise, too, is there pretty strongly. Yes there are some KOTCS fans, just like there are SW prequel fans. But those people are idiots....I mean....everyone is entitled to their own opinion.....

And as Andy said, Star Wars is more of a cultural phenomenon than Indy.

Finally, don't forget that South Park did a big sendup with Indy getting raped by both Lucas and Spielberg. So the sentiment is out there in the public eye, too.
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:15 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Jonesy
I've been reading alot about the 'Prequels' lately, and comparing their reception to that of KOTCS. And the thing that strikes me the most about an article or blog about George Lucas is that when they mention him 'ruining' or 'raping' a franchise, they only mention Star Wars. And these articles are post-2008, mind you.

So why isn't KOTCS mentioned if most everyone thought it was a poor movie that raped a franchise? Do people not care about Indy at all? You'd think they'd mention it in an article about him destroying beloved franchises. This post isn't a "in defense of KOTCS" thread, by the way. Cause I'm still mixed about the film myself. I just want to know why the heck they'd leave Indy out of the argument that Lucas is a hack.

So any ideas on why people leave Indy out of the discussion? And how does the fan/general audience's reaction to KOTCS compare to the 'Prequels'?


As I've mentioned elsewhere, I would question the judgement/intellect of anyone who uses that type of language when talking about movies. It just smacks of a limited vocabulary. Besides, the majority of Hollywood blockbusters, year in year, out are leagues below the SW prequels and KOTCS (IMHO). Bottom line is that there isn't not much mileage in expending so much effort on slagging off Prince Of Persia, Transformers, X-Men etc. etc. as they don't have a big enough fan base to justify the air time/server space.
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:35 PM   #5
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if your whole life is based on movies, then really you need to take a whole new look at your life.
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Old 06-29-2010, 02:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teampunk
if your whole life is based on movies, then really you need to take a whole new look at your life.

Someone on IMDB has one of my favorite signatures:

"If a movie raped your childhood, your childhood had it coming..."
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Old 06-29-2010, 02:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Jonesy
So why isn't KOTCS mentioned if most everyone thought it was a poor movie that raped a franchise?
Now hold on. I've tried to tell people forever that your statement just isn't true. Sure the internet, would suggest that that it is, but really the vast majority of people on the internet just are going with the fanboys who say that "raped my childhood" CRAP.

Then the media picks this up and "officially" announces it a failure.Sorry if I'm ranting, but if there's one thing that gets on my nerve, it's when people like you, who are "mixed" about KotCS, just go along with everyone and accept it as a failure.
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Old 06-29-2010, 04:01 PM   #8
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I am simply offended by the use of that term in this context and those that continually perpetuate add nothing but bile to the discussion.

This is a none discussion.
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Old 06-29-2010, 04:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorJones
I am simply offended by the use of that term in this context and those that continually perpetuate add nothing but bile to the discussion.

Well I agree with your first statement...although I'm going to go beyond that and go on record* as believing that between the rancor of those who hated the film and the persecution complex of those who loved it there is another way to talk about this.

Movies count for something; they are serious business. But that's all the more reason to approach all of this with a sense of humor and an even temper and at least some consideration for the other point of view. There are those that do, but there are also many who seem to have a problem with perspective.

*Not as a moderator, although let's be clear that we do keep track of discussions that get out of hand.
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Old 06-29-2010, 04:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorJones
I am simply offended by the use of that term in this context and those that continually perpetuate add nothing but bile to the discussion.

This is a none discussion.

I didn't want to step on anyone's toes. I really just wanted people to help me figure out why Indy is left out of the 'ruined franchise' discussion most of the time. Cause it really does confuse me.

I really don't want anyone to get angry at this thread.

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Old 06-29-2010, 04:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Jones
Then the media picks this up and "officially" announces it a failure.Sorry if I'm ranting, but if there's one thing that gets on my nerve, it's when people like you, who are "mixed" about KotCS, just go along with everyone and accept it as a failure.

Truthfully? I'm not mixed, actually. I love the film, and personally rank it 3rd in the series.

I stated I was in my OP because I wanted to appear more neutral on the subject. Sorry about that.

And I agree on the media part. Why is it whenever I read an article discussing how "scary" it is to think of an Indy V, I always see comments below the article saying "I actually liked Indy IV", or "But Indy 4 didn't suck..."

What else pisses me off is before KOTCS came out, people said "Raiders and Crusade were the only good ones...TOD sucked..." and once KOTCS came out, the disappointed fans seemed to have started thinking TOD was holy, sacred and flawless as ROTLA and LC. That gets on my nerves cause TOD is the worst of the 4, in my opinion. Doesn't mean I don't love it so don't panic!

So, I don't know what they're getting at.

Anyway, back to topic! Prequels+fanboys+whining-Indy=why leave him out?

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Old 06-29-2010, 05:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Jonesy
I didn't want to step on anyone's toes. I really just wanted people to help me figure out why Indy is left out of the 'ruined franchise' discussion most of the time. Cause it really does confuse me.

I really don't want anyone to get angry at this thread.

i'm not against the debate. I am offended by the terms of reference.

The debate should be about disenfranchisement.
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:51 PM   #13
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Raping a childhood . . .

"Raping a childhood" . . . I've heard it so many times. Why does it not get applied to KOTCS? Here's my take:

Star Wars had much more hype. The original trilogy always promised a prequel trilogy. Expectations for it began the moment Lucas put "Episode IV" on the re-release of the original film. So there was a good 20-year wait. But Indy, well, each film stood alone. There was never any assurance of another film, hence, people didn't build up expectations so much.

As for how I feel about KOTCS itself, I loved it. It's no Raiders, but it's still as good as Temple and Crusade. Raiders was serious, and the artifact was feared. It was a more mature movie. What happened is that, when making Temple, Spielberg was uncomfortable with the darkness so he added more comedy. Problem was, when he got to Crusade, he kept the humor even if he didn't need it. Crusade was a bit too cartoony, and since Ford and Connery had such great chemistry, elevating the movie, their performances somewhat masked the flawed approach of "too much silliness". So, Kingdom was doomed (pun intended) to follow this template, evevn though it was scripted more like Raiders. It was a troubled project because it didn't have the focused direction that it needed.

Kingdom was still a good movie, easily as good as Temple and Crusade. My problems were only a few:

1) Indy didn't use his whip enough
2) Indy didn't have much to do at the end (although this is arguable, considering that he did about as much as he did in Raiders, which was basically just keep in the race for the artifact until the supernatural erases the bad guys for him)
3) Some bad editing/scripting (Indy tells everyone he's going into Akator alone, then they cut to everyone following him in any way)

That's about it. The real problems are few. Everyone seems to use the alien plot element as a whipping boy, when in truth, it's probably the coolest plot device behind the Ark itself. The Holy Grail was a redux of Raiders and not very interesting, and the Shankra Stones weren't very threatening. But the Crystal Skulls, and their connection to the origin of civilization and more, that's some cool stuff! I'm GLAD this movie broke away from the traditional mystical artifact. It broadens Indy's rage.

So, thankfully, "raping my childhood" isn't often applied to KOTCS, at least not in my experience. Whether Star Wars was raping childhoods is another matter entirely.
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt deMille
Everyone seems to use the alien plot element as a whipping boy, when in truth, it's probably the coolest plot device behind the Ark itself.

I agree with that 100%. Totally. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels the same.

I also love that the Ark's and Skull's powers are not fully explained. And that's why they're interesting to me. They're very alluring.
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:52 PM   #15
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Thanks, Dr. Jonsey!

Not explaining powers is important. Look at The Force. When the "M"-word was introduced in Episode I, the Force lost a lot of its mojo.

Now, really none of the Indy relics were explained, but the Shankra Stones and especially the Holy Grail -- we knew enough of what they were about, so that, even without explaining their properties, a lot of their intrigue was gone. They basically just become McGuffins and no more, whereas the Ark and the Crystal Skull were McGuffins with character, fear, and mystique about them.

KOTSC gets a bad rap. It was a bold effort and brought into films something I believe audiences have been dying to see ever since X-Files went south in its third season: The untold mysteries of the world and their supernatural or paranormal connections. I truly hope Indy V continues in this vein, integrating more of the ancient alien lore.
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I would question the judgement/intellect of anyone who uses that type of language when talking about movies. It just smacks of a limited vocabulary. ....

Bottom line is that there isn't not much mileage in expending so much effort on slagging off Prince Of Persia, Transformers, X-Men etc. etc. as they don't have a big enough fan base to justify the air time/server space.

That's really it in a nutshell. Film bashing is a past time for people who feel some sort of power from it. There are several reasons why it's so prevalent.

1. It's safe. It's all done with aliases from the safety of a keyboard.
2. Bullying gives some people a feeling of superiority. There are a few of those people left here, one of which has already weighed in on this thread. They dig being able to get to someone. It's power & notoriety, even if it's just within the confines of a program running on a server.
3. It's easy. Gone are the days of fan newsletters being typed, printed, folded, put in an envelope, stamped, and mailed out. Now everyone can start a web site or vomit out hate in about the time it takes to heat up a TV dinner.
4. It's the angry, mean-spirited culture we live in now. Selfishness and arrogance rule these days and trolling & baiting fan forums is a fast & easy way to bully. A bully doesn't have to risk his health, take time to confront someone, or risk being bettered. Just log on, peck out some hate, sit back and feel big.

As Roger Waters so eloquently put it - "The safety of being out of range". And - as DV mentioned - the bigger the franchise, success, & fanbase - the bigger the bully's audience - a bigger return on investment, so to speak.
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:03 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt deMille
Thanks, Dr. Jonsey!

KOTCS gets a bad rap. It was a bold effort and brought into films something I believe audiences have been dying to see ever since X-Files went south in its third season: The untold mysteries of the world and their supernatural or paranormal connections. I truly hope Indy V continues in this vein, integrating more of the ancient alien lore.

Welcome

I agree that it does get a bad rap, but I don't think we should revisit something like the ancient Alien lore, as much as I loved it.

If there's going to be a final Indy, it has to go back to something that everyone can love. Cause KOTCS did have a group of fans that don't care for the alien thing at all. So, in order to have the next one to not get a bad rap (a la TOD and KOTCS style), they need to go back to what works for everyone.

I do want my Indy films to chart uncharted territory, but we've seen that from Indy II and IV that it doesn't please everyone.
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneTriple
That's really it in a nutshell. Film bashing is a past time for people who feel some sort of power from it. There are several reasons why it's so prevalent.

1. It's safe. It's all done with aliases from the safety of a keyboard.
2. Bullying gives some people a feeling of superiority. There are a few of those people left here, one of which has already weighed in on this thread. They dig being able to get to someone. It's power & notoriety, even if it's just within the confines of a program running on a server.
3. It's easy. Gone are the days of fan newsletters being typed, printed, folded, put in an envelope, stamped, and mailed out. Now everyone can start a web site or vomit out hate in about the time it takes to heat up a TV dinner.
4. It's the angry, mean-spirited culture we live in now. Selfishness and arrogance rule these days and trolling & baiting fan forums is a fast & easy way to bully. A bully doesn't have to risk his health, take time to confront someone, or risk being bettered. Just log on, peck out some hate, sit back and feel big.

As Roger Waters so eloquently put it - "The safety of being out of range". And - as DV mentioned - the bigger the franchise, success, & fanbase - the bigger the bully's audience - a bigger return on investment, so to speak.

Wow, couldn't have said it better...

I mean, in our culture today on the internet, either people love the living hell out of a film and worship it to the point of being sexually stimulated by the content (The Dark Knight, for example) or they trash the hell out of it to the point of describing that they'd rather resort to self mutilation than watch something.

People feel a sense of entitlement with movies today, and everyone is a film critic. Back in the '70s and '80s, would people have been whining about the DOP did a horrible job, and that the script was bad in parts? Hell no. They either liked something or they didn't. If they didn't, they didn't watch it. Simple as that. Today, they must obsess about it and trash the filmmakers who put it together, whom worked very hard on it. I don't care if it's Kingdom of the Crystal Skull or Iron Man 2 (both films get a bad rap on the internet mind you), every film takes alot of work, dedication and time. And people don't respect that.

Today, we wait for the film to decide whether it just sucks or not. Most of the time we decide it does before it comes out. We forget to enjoy it.

I mean, filmmakers used to make films when they wanted to and if the audience liked it and it made money, great. Today, the audience seems to think a movie that caters to their desires is a birthright.

Movies today are cookie cutter films, especially Oscar contenders. Because if a film exits the parameters of the genre or formula, it gets trashed for it and it doesn't sell. Why do you think Hollywood is remaking films and doing so many sequels? Because there's less risk in it; a new film with a new storyline and style isn't as acceptable as years before. Would ROTLA be an Oscar contender today? Heck no! Shows how much has changed...

And fanboys of Star Wars are the perfect examples of entitled, superior minded, trash talking audience member hiding behind the computer. And I'm ashamed that the group that hated KOTCS (or even TOD) have become that too.

Sorry, my rant is over!

Last edited by Dr.Jonesy : 06-29-2010 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneTriple
That's really it in a nutshell. Film bashing is a past time for people who feel some sort of power from it. There are several reasons why it's so prevalent.

1. It's safe. It's all done with aliases from the safety of a keyboard.
2. Bullying gives some people a feeling of superiority. There are a few of those people left here, one of which has already weighed in on this thread. They dig being able to get to someone. It's power & notoriety, even if it's just within the confines of a program running on a server.
3. It's easy. Gone are the days of fan newsletters being typed, printed, folded, put in an envelope, stamped, and mailed out. Now everyone can start a web site or vomit out hate in about the time it takes to heat up a TV dinner.
4. It's the angry, mean-spirited culture we live in now. Selfishness and arrogance rule these days and trolling & baiting fan forums is a fast & easy way to bully. A bully doesn't have to risk his health, take time to confront someone, or risk being bettered. Just log on, peck out some hate, sit back and feel big.

As Roger Waters so eloquently put it - "The safety of being out of range". And - as DV mentioned - the bigger the franchise, success, & fanbase - the bigger the bully's audience - a bigger return on investment, so to speak.

That's obviously not taking away from those who articulate their criticisms in a way that encourages debate/conversation... rather just those who would use such emotive language ("raped") about what is simply a piece of escapism entertainment.
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
That's obviously not taking away from those who articulate their criticisms in a way that encourages debate/conversation... rather just those who would use such emotive language ("raped") about what is simply a piece of escapism entertainment.

Of course not

I mean, I don't mind hearing criticism for my love of The Dark Knight or Casablanca, but don't degrade me for it or be condescending while using excessive profanity.
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
That's obviously not taking away from those who articulate their criticisms in a way that encourages debate/conversation... rather just those who would use such emotive language ("raped") about what is simply a piece of escapism entertainment.

I absolutely agree. There are plenty of valid criticisms (of all four films) that have been, and continue to be, discussed interestingly and intelligently.
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:28 PM   #22
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On internet criticism: Damn right. It's too easy and too safe for people to spew their hatred online. I guess that's why guys like Lucas just don't listen. I wouldn't either. Making movies is tough enough.

On Indy V: You're right, Dr. Jonsey. It a fifth and final film should be something everyone can enjoy. I just hope it's not a religious artifact, because that would make KOTCS an oddball-out. What I wrote in my own script for Indy V is more ancient, pre-Atlantean, so it *could* have been the wellspring of different faiths or it *could* have been an alien relic -- It could be all those things, but never sways toward one or the other. But I guess this is a topic for a different thread.
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:32 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt deMille
On internet criticism: Damn right. It's too easy and too safe for people to spew their hatred online. I guess that's why guys like Lucas just don't listen. I wouldn't either. Making movies is tough enough.

On Indy V: You're right, Dr. Jonsey. It a fifth and final film should be something everyone can enjoy. I just hope it's not a religious artifact, because that would make KOTCS an oddball-out. What I wrote in my own script for Indy V is more ancient, pre-Atlantean, so it *could* have been the wellspring of different faiths or it *could* have been an alien relic -- It could be all those things, but never sways toward one or the other. But I guess this is a topic for a different thread.

Well think of it this way, Temple of Doom was the odd one out during the Original Trilogy days because of its McGuffin was Hindu related and nobody is familiar with their stories at all, but Last Crusade followed it up, and it was a film that went back to what worked, a Christian/Judaic relic.

For many fans, TOD is still the odd one out b/c the other 3 follow a formula (Intro, college scenes, McGuffin introduced, map travel shots, ect...). And for some fans KOTCS is the other odd one out for it's Sci-Fi angle. Once TOD was followed by a well received film, people became a bit more apologetic about the film. And for the fans who weren't happy with KOTCS, a return to what works could make those fans see KOTCS in a more favorable light.
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