Should an Indy movie ever venture further into horror?

Attila the Professor said:

I agree with this. I don't want a demonic or even supernatural villain, most likely. (Going into the realm of the 1950s monster movie, however, might well be appropriate.)

An environment, however, with more of the supernatural about it, as of a haunted castle or some such, is something I could be on board with.

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I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a villain that is of the paranormal kind. No, I don't want something like Leatherface, Pin-Head, or Jason Vorhees. I'm thinking along the lines of someone who is immortal, seeped in the occult, or even has supernatural powers.
This would throw an obstacle in Indy's path that he has never dealt with in such a degree before.

Also, I like the idea of an environment that Indy must face that could be haunted or cursed. This could prove to have 'traps' and 'challenges' in a unique way.
We have seen small snippets of things like this. Such as the opening of the Ark, heart extraction, and voodoo. Immortality from the grail, and otherworldly traps, and even aliens to an extent.
But, these things have never played a prominent role in the films. Sure, they played a big part, but nothing HUGE,

I really don't have any horror movies to cite as a reference to what I feel should influence the next Indy film (if there is one). I just want to see these aspects feature a more prominent role and be a REAL threat bombarding Indiana throughout the whole film, and not be the climax.

Instead of human cults and covens, I would like to see a true supernatural enemy.
One that could really mess with Indy's mind, uncover his deepest fears, and give him a run for his money.

I'm racking my brain on how the "horror" genre could really fit Indy, but I don't see it. Even the "monster movie" sort of idea seems just as bad of a fit as the sci-fi/aliens thing.

I am open minded though, any concept has a chance. It really depends on the writing. If TOD has elements of Horror, and that's what they're talking about, then maybe it would work.

I know about the old haunted house idea, but I don't know if I really want to see Indy in a haunted house per se. I don't know if that would be interesting enough. The idea of a supernatural element that isn't necessarily religious intrigues me, but I just don't want it to be something super cheesy.

I don't really believe Indy 5 is ever going to happen though. It's going to take too long to get it going IMO. (I hope I'm wrong)

The Drifter said:

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a villain that is of the paranormal kind. No, I don't want something like Leatherface, Pin-Head, or Jason Vorhees. I'm thinking along the lines of someone who is immortal, seeped in the occult, or even has supernatural powers.

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Well, Mola Ram <I>seems</I> to have had at least one supernatural power, and possibly as many as three.

The Drifter said:

Also, I like the idea of an environment that Indy must face that could be haunted or cursed. This could prove to have 'traps' and 'challenges' in a unique way.

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Your second sentence is great in this regard, because it does feel like by the time of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull that they were running out of great trap ideas. (Heck, even Last Crusade was rehashing some things, albeit to tremendous effect.) Adding in the supernatural can give a much needed jolt to their deathtrap creativity.

The Drifter said:

I really don't have any horror movies to cite as a reference to what I feel should influence the next Indy film (if there is one). I just want to see these aspects feature a more prominent role and be a REAL threat bombarding Indiana throughout the whole film, and not be the climax.

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Well, if not particular films, I guess I'm curious if you have any particular ideas for what type of horror. I know you don't mean something like <I>Psycho</I>, obviously. But, y'know, what sort of environment do we see this in? Is the supernatural consistently present? Is this supernatural villain tied to mortals, or does he have some sort of occult minions? Demonic? Human in form, but with powers? Any other thoughts, really - I'm just spitballing here.

And I wonder if a more consistent supernatural presence would have a detrimental effect on the climax. I know you're a Temple of Doom fan, and of course that film doesn't have a supernatural ending, perhaps in part because it puts a lot of the supernatural into earlier parts of the film. That ending works like gangbusters, of course, but I doubt we'd see them going away from the "Temple Collapse!" form of climax writing at this point.

The Drifter said:

Instead of human cults and covens, I would like to see a true supernatural enemy.
One that could really mess with Indy's mind, uncover his deepest fears, and give him a run for his money.

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Deepest fears sounds nice. A giant, family-and-friends eating snake?

* * *

Oh, and hey, look here's here!

No Ticket said:

I'm racking my brain on how the "horror" genre could really fit Indy, but I don't see it. Even the "monster movie" sort of idea seems just as bad of a fit as the sci-fi/aliens thing.

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Yeah, even though I'm the one who mentioned it, I sort of think the monster movie idea could be a bad one too. Still, the aliens worked for me, since they were embedded in the pre-Colombian framework that made it an acceptable Indiana Jones subject. Still, we probably need to give at least some consideration to the whole monster movie business, at least if we're going to run with the idea that Crystal Skull changed for good the possibility for an Indiana Jones film, at least under the Lucas/Spielberg/Ford regime, that is purely in the adventure genre without any additives.

No Ticket said:

I know about the old haunted house idea, but I don't know if I really want to see Indy in a haunted house per se. I don't know if that would be interesting enough. The idea of a supernatural element that isn't necessarily religious intrigues me, but I just don't want it to be something super cheesy.

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Again, it's about finding the Indiana Jones-esque hook, about tying it to some actual old culture or legend. I can't say I have any particular hook in mind, though.

No Ticket said:

I don't really believe Indy 5 is ever going to happen though. It's going to take too long to get it going IMO. (I hope I'm wrong)

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Anyone's guess at this point. At any rate, we need to get all of our speculation in now in case we ever get official word one way or the other.

Attila the Professor said:

But, y'know, what sort of environment do we see this in? Is the supernatural consistently present? Is this supernatural villain tied to mortals, or does he have some sort of occult minions? Demonic? Human in form, but with powers? Any other thoughts, really - I'm just spitballing here.

...

Again, it's about finding the Indiana Jones-esque hook, about tying it to some actual old culture or legend. I can't say I have any particular hook in mind, though.

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There are things like ghosts and poltergeists, and legendary creatures such as Bigfoot or the Yeti. Though I see the horror for Indy more as a constant threat, which can manifest anywhere and be perpetuated by anyone. That is, a central evil figure controlling human forces (be they living cultists or those raised from the dead to serve). Not tied to any religion, but to a Lovecraftian style, just as KOTCS was tied to the pseudo-scientific fiction of Däniken (they only took the Mitchell Hedges type of crystal skull as a jumping off point).

Indy is then faced with a mystery that needs investigating, and will meet ever more dangerous lines of defence the closer he gets to the source. And when they know he's onto them, they'll pose a danger wherever he is. No matter how busy the location or how bright and sunny the day. Though at night or in the fog they'll be even more menacing.

Attila the Professor said:

...Temple of Doom...of course that film doesn't have a supernatural ending, perhaps in part because it puts a lot of the supernatural into earlier parts of the film.

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Though Mola Ram was himself defeated by te supernatural in the end.

Montana Smith said:

There are things like ghosts and poltergeists, and legendary creatures such as Bigfoot or the Yeti. Though I see the horror for Indy more as a constant threat, which can manifest anywhere and be perpetuated by anyone. That is, a central evil figure controlling human forces (be they living cultists or those raised from the dead to serve). Not tied to any religion, but to a Lovecraftian style, just as KOTCS was tied to the pseudo-scientific fiction of Däniken (they only took the Mitchell Hedges type of crystal skull as a jumping off point).

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I reckon the Lovecraft would be need to tied to <I>something</I> though, rather than simply existing as its own sort of mythos. Any notions of what the archaeological hook could be along those lines?

Montana Smith said:

Indy is then faced with a mystery that needs investigating, and will meet ever more dangerous lines of defence the closer he gets to the source. And when they know he's onto them, they'll pose a danger wherever he is. No matter how busy the location or how bright and sunny the day. Though at night or in the fog they'll be even more menacing.

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I don't know whether horror is by nature a much more ephemeral and hard to describe form than, say, the Hitchcock film or whether I'm simply unschooled in it, but it seems striking how little there is about story beats here. Horror is a form that thrives on atmosphere, so I suppose that makes some sense.

Montana Smith said:

Though Mola Ram was himself defeated by the supernatural in the end.

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Yes, but much less directly than the baddies in the other three films.

Attila the Professor said:

Well, Mola Ram <I>seems</I> to have had at least one supernatural power, and possibly as many as three.

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True, but I don't consider him to be a pure supernatural villain. It's as if he used certain techniques to achieve what he did. Maybe Kali did favor him and empower him to a degree, but he wasn't purely supernatural, IMO.

Your second sentence is great in this regard, because it does feel like by the time of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull that they were running out of great trap ideas. (Heck, even Last Crusade was rehashing some things, albeit to tremendous effect.) Adding in the supernatural can give a much needed jolt to their deathtrap creativity.

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Yes, being in a haunted or cursed environment could prove to have some creative traps and trials.
Anythings goes! And, it would not have to abound to the laws of nature.

Well, if not particular films, I guess I'm curious if you have any particular ideas for what type of horror. I know you don't mean something like <I>Psycho</I>, obviously. But, y'know, what sort of environment do we see this in? Is the supernatural consistently present? Is this supernatural villain tied to mortals, or does he have some sort of occult minions? Demonic? Human in form, but with powers? Any other thoughts, really - I'm just spitballing here.

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This is hard for me to answer. I've been pondering this very same thing ever since you spurred me to revive this thread.
But, I shall try to answer your questions the best that I can.

1. The environment I see most of these things taking place could be the castle idea that we know so much about. But, I see these things happening to Indy throughout all of his adventure to hinder him to gain whatever he needs to gain.
No matter where he goes, somehow the 'villain' is one step ahead, and by means unknown thwarts Indy to the very end, where Indy finally triumphs.

2. Yes, like I stated. I would love to see the supernatural consistent throughout the whole film. Foiling every plan our hero tries.

3. I would like to see a mixture of both. Mortals who worship this being and the other minions who serve it.
I'm seeing them as more ghostly things, such as we see in the opening of the Ark. Not angelic, but ancient, ghostly, and protecting something of grand importance.

And I wonder if a more consistent supernatural presence would have a detrimental effect on the climax. I know you're a Temple of Doom fan, and of course that film doesn't have a supernatural ending, perhaps in part because it puts a lot of the supernatural into earlier parts of the film. That ending works like gangbusters, of course, but I doubt we'd see them going away from the "Temple Collapse!" form of climax writing at this point.

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I am at a loss as what they could do for a great climax. Perhaps with the right writing they could top the others, just by all the thrills and chills of what's in the rest of the movie they would strive for a better ending?

Deepest fears sounds nice. A giant, family-and-friends eating snake?

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That's a good one, but I doubt snakes are Indy's biggest, and inner-most fears. Something more personal. Something that hits too close to home. Something with family perhaps, or his own mortality which he sees more clear know since he is older?

Mola Ram was fairly supernatural, or at least called on supernatural powers. The last time I tried to rip someone's heart out a la Kali sacrifice, well, I just botched it. I've got the shaved head, but no paint work on it!

Attila the Professor said:

Zombies, even if it's a bit early for them?

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I said it before, even though pop culture is rife with them I would love to see Indy encounter them.

Maybe in the prologue.

It would be great to see Indy V give us a history lesson in horror...and go back to where Zombies originated: the Middle East.

He could quote The Epic of Gilgamesh:


"Father give me the Bull of Heaven,
So he can kill Gilgamesh in his dwelling.
If you do not give me the Bull of Heaven,
I will knock down the Gates of the Netherworld,
I will smash the door posts, and leave the doors flat down,
and will let the dead go up to eat the living!
And the dead will outnumber the living!"

Rocket Surgeon said:

I said it before, even though pop culture is rife with them I would love to see Indy encounter them.

Maybe in the prologue.

It would be great to see Indy V give us a history lesson in horror...and go back to where Zombies originated: the Middle East.

He could quote The Epic of Gilgamesh:


"Father give me the Bull of Heaven,
So he can kill Gilgamesh in his dwelling.
If you do not give me the Bull of Heaven,
I will knock down the Gates of the Netherworld,
I will smash the door posts, and leave the doors flat down,
and will let the dead go up to eat the living!
And the dead will outnumber the living!"

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Watched the low budget movie The Dead recently. Filmed on location in Africa it was very effective - even moreso than some of Romero's series. Beautifully filmed, and with a constant sense of threat. I could see Indy on a dig when something like that suddenly took place, forcing him to survive while journeying towards a cure.

Attila the Professor said:

Zombies, even if it's a bit early for them? Of course, the recent novel dealt with those, and the comic series did Lovecraft.

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By coincidence, courtesy of The Drifter's post in Rugged Men..., I saw this pulp cover from 1962 that might have been relevant to Indy 5's timeline:



However...

In the cover painting, ghoulish green zombies are coming out of the water near a shoreline that has weird, towering outcrops of rock.

On the shore, looking alarmed but ready to kick ass, are a pistol-packing heroine (who seems to have popped all the buttons on her blouse), and a Doc Savage-style blonde hero holding what appears to be an M-14 army rifle.

...

The coverline promoting the “zombie” story Norem painted the Man’s Life cover for says: JOURNEY TO DAMAR: PACIFIC PARADISE-HELL ISLE OF THE EVERLASTING DEAD.

That sounded like a zombie story to me. But when I received the magazine and read it I found out “the everlasting dead” were not “living dead.” They’re dead dead. They’re the bodies of unfortunate victims of a South Seas tribe that likes to preserve the sacrificial victims they use in their tribal ceremonies.

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http://www.menspulpmags.com/2009_10_01_archive.html



So, only a false promise of zombies.

The Drifter said:

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a villain that is of the paranormal kind. No, I don't want something like Leatherface, Pin-Head, or Jason Vorhees. I'm thinking along the lines of someone who is immortal, seeped in the occult, or even has supernatural powers.
This would throw an obstacle in Indy's path that he has never dealt with in such a degree before.

I really don't have any horror movies to cite as a reference to what I feel should influence the next Indy film (if there is one). I just want to see these aspects feature a more prominent role and be a REAL threat bombarding Indiana throughout the whole film, and not be the climax.

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No Ticket said:

I'm racking my brain on how the "horror" genre could really fit Indy, but I don't see it. Even the "monster movie" sort of idea seems just as bad of a fit as the sci-fi/aliens thing.

I know about the old haunted house idea, but I don't know if I really want to see Indy in a haunted house per se. I don't know if that would be interesting enough. The idea of a supernatural element that isn't necessarily religious intrigues me, but I just don't want it to be something super cheesy.

Click to expand...

Attila the Professor said:

Well, if not particular films, I guess I'm curious if you have any particular ideas for what type of horror. I know you don't mean something like <I>Psycho</I>, obviously. But, y'know, what sort of environment do we see this in? Is the supernatural consistently present? Is this supernatural villain tied to mortals, or does he have some sort of occult minions? Demonic? Human in form, but with powers? Any other thoughts, really - I'm just spitballing here.

Yeah, even though I'm the one who mentioned it, I sort of think the monster movie idea could be a bad one too. Still, the aliens worked for me, since they were embedded in the pre-Colombian framework that made it an acceptable Indiana Jones subject. Still, we probably need to give at least some consideration to the whole monster movie business, at least if we're going to run with the idea that Crystal Skull changed for good the possibility for an Indiana Jones film, at least under the Lucas/Spielberg/Ford regime, that is purely in the adventure genre without any additives.

Anyone's guess at this point. At any rate, we need to get all of our speculation in now in case we ever get official word one way or the other.

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All good points chaps. If a new Indy movie were to explore a new genre, I think there are ways of successfully doing this. Afterall, TOD used the zombie and human sacrifice motifs to quite good effect? without it ever becoming a full-blown horror movie.

An example that immediately springs to mind is how well the last Sherlock Holmes movie used the occult/paranomormal activity in a very effective way (not brilliant, but effective nonetheless). Of course it was all a deception in the end, but it did create opportunitites for genuine moments of ?horror?. Another good example would be Billy Wilder?s The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes; where they used the Loch Ness monster myth as a cover up for nefarious Nazi plotting. Again, in the end it wasn?t an actual monster... but it did create great ?scary? moments e.g. out on the loch in the fog? One of my all time favorite horror movies is The Most Dangerous Game. I could quite easily see Indy in that type of scenario.

Ultimately, given the will, I think Lucas/Spielberg could definitely make an Indy horror movie without having to revert to actual vampires, werewolves etc. and it's something I'd like to see.

Darth Vile said:

...in the end it wasn’t an actual monster... but it did create great ‘scary’ moments e.g. out on the loch in the fog…

Ultimately, given the will, I think Lucas/Spielberg could definitely make an Indy horror movie without having to revert to actual vampires, werewolves etc. and it's something I'd like to see.

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There are definitely ways to go the route of horror without becoming too campy, as your example echoes Attila's comment that,

Attila the Professor said:

Horror is a form that thrives on atmosphere...

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And that's something I totally agree with.

Horror isn't about the monster, but the atmosphere that creates a sense of unease or terror. That's why I mentioned The Dead. The film takes the subject seriously, and the tension never lets up. The zombies are slow, easy to kill, and can even be avoided if you hide. But you just never know when or where they'll show up, or in what numbers. Nowhere feels safe. Even a secure location might become your own trap.

One bite is enough to defeat you, so you have to keep them at a distance. It's wits and intuition that will keep a human alive in that situation, and that's precisely where Indy thrives.

I couldn't imagine Lucas and Spielberg going full-on with that level of threat, but they could without a doubt create something of the atmosphere that would be palatable for a family audience.

Montana Smith said:

One bite is enough to defeat you, so you have to keep them at a distance. It's wits and intuition that will keep a human alive in that situation, and that's precisely where Indy thrives.

I couldn't imagine Lucas and Spielberg going full-on with that level of threat, but they could without a doubt create something of the atmosphere that would be palatable for a family audience.

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I like this, Montana.
Like I stated in an earlier thread, I wouldn't want in-your-face horror, but something that hounds Indy at every step.
Zombies like these could work, as I do want to see the monster at times. Would love to see something like the bundle of dead guys in The Well of the Souls walking and plodding around.

The Drifter said:

I like this, Montana.

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I like this too.

Personally, I'm all for the more subtle horror, like we've seen several times in TOD. Being poisoned and grasping at the antidote, flying a plane without fuel, getting gored from above by slowly nearing spikes or getting burned in a cage. Not to mention centipedes crawling down your neck...

That's the horror I wanna see. Zombies are no better than aliens or other supernatural beings in my book!

Olliana said:

Personally, I'm all for the more subtle horror, like we've seen several times in TOD. Being poisoned and grasping at the antidote, flying a plane without fuel, getting gored from above by slowly nearing spikes or getting burned in a cage. Not to mention centipedes crawling down your neck...

That's the horror I wanna see. Zombies are no better than aliens or other supernatural beings in my book!

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If Mola Ram could keep a disconnected heart beating, couldn't someone else within the same universe animate a complete body? You can't escape the supernatural, as for Indy it's part of the natural order.

Montana Smith said:

If Mola Ram could keep a disconnected heart beating, couldn't someone else within the same universe animate a complete body? You can't escape the supernatural, as for Indy it's part of the natural order.

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It's a fine line between Indiana Jones and 1999's The Mummy. Would we be happy with Indy fighting zombies, re-animated mummies? I'm sure they could do it better/darker... but there would be a risk that Indy would look like it's simply immitating The Mummy. Would it further risk that modicum of 'credibility' that the Indy movies had/have (sans perhaps KOTCS)?

Darth Vile said:

It's a fine line between Indiana Jones and 1999's The Mummy. Would we be happy with Indy fighting zombies, re-animated mummies? I'm sure they could do it better/darker... but there would be a risk that Indy would look like it's simply immitating The Mummy. Would it further risk that modicum of 'credibility' that the Indy movies had/have (sans perhaps KOTCS)?

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After ROTLA Indy didn't have any 'credibility' in the normal sense. As much as we might want to put the reins on the series, I think Lucas always had in mind that 'anything goes'. That was a direction made more evident in TOD, and I doubt it was a coincidence that Willie sung those very words.

The impetus from the start was escapism. We have to be thankful that the aliens in KOTCS weren't campy '50s conceptions, or depicted like those on the 1962 Mars Attacks Topps cards. So while 'anything goes', there is a certain internal look to Indyverse.

Therefore, I think (and hope) the undead would also have a more serious tone to them. It's about creating the danger and the situation more than the creatures themselves. They needn't even be dead, but enslaved as in White Zombie (1932). A horde of infected humans with a single purpose who cannot be reasoned with creates the situation. Add to that the single bite and you inject the mortal threat.

Montana Smith said:

After ROTLA Indy didn't have any 'credibility' in the normal sense. As much as we might want to put the reins on the series, I think Lucas always had in mind that 'anything goes'. That was a direction made more evident in TOD, and I doubt it was a coincidence that Willie sung those very words.

The impetus from the start was escapism. We have to be thankful that the aliens in KOTCS weren't campy '50s conceptions, or depicted like those on the 1962 Mars Attacks Topps cards. So while 'anything goes', there is a certain internal look to Indyverse.

Therefore, I think (and hope) the undead would also have a more serious tone to them. It's about creating the danger and the situation more than the creatures themselves. They needn't even be dead, but enslaved as in White Zombie (1932). A horde of infected humans with a single purpose who cannot be reasoned with creates the situation. Add to that the single bite and you inject the mortal threat.

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I agree... I do feel that Indiana Jones is different to The Mummy in that (even in TOD and KOTCS) there was some modicum of reality (even though that reality was sometimes tested to its limits). I'm sure that Spielberg/Lucas could do something that could work... horror wise... but my concern is just that it would probably be closer to The Mummy than we'd like if they were to go down the ghosts, zombies route.

Olliana said:

Personally, I'm all for the more subtle horror, like we've seen several times in TOD. Being poisoned and grasping at the antidote, flying a plane without fuel, getting gored from above by slowly nearing spikes or getting burned in a cage. Not to mention centipedes crawling down your neck...

That's the horror I wanna see. Zombies are no better than aliens or other supernatural beings in my book!

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I agree with everything, but I think zombies can be done intelligently and not schlocky.

As chronicled in "The Hot Zone" (Can't recommend the book to horror fans enough), ebola can be used efectively in an Indiana Jones adventure...it's an exotic tropical disease, fast working with NO cure.

One strain's home is Marburg in Germany, another in Kenya and the late term effects, (which is a few weeks), are what would inspire the thought "zombie" to ANYONE, (save Resident Alien of course).

Do yourself a favor and give the book a read, (you can thank me later) and then tell me zombies would be like aliens!