Darth Vile said:I'm not really sure she is worthy of all the hate. Willie is certainly not as likeable as Marion, or even as interesting as Elsa... but she is what she is, and like Marion, she is designed to be reminiscent of specific 1930?s/40?s leading ladies (which she is). Marion is the loveable girl next door tomboy, Elsa the scheming femme fatale and Willie the prissy, spoilt and selfish middle/upper class socialite.
Rocket Surgeon said:She is what she is...and not what she's not.
What specific 30's 40's leading ladies are you referring to?
Marion has been characterized as a Myrna Loy type, and Kate, (not Willie) has been characterized as possessing Lucille Ball attributes, but doesn't come off nearly as likeable. Not to nitpick but our good friend Wiki reads Ball had small roles, (not a leading lady);
In 1929, Ball landed work as a model and later began her performing career on Broadway using the stage name "Diane Belmont". She appeared in many small movie roles in the 1930s as a contract player for RKO Radio Pictures. Ball was labeled as the "Queen of the Bs" (referring to her many roles in B-films).
What leading ladies are you talking about?
Rocket Surgeon said:She is what she is...and not what she's not.
What specific 30's 40's leading ladies are you referring to?
Marion has been characterized as a Myrna Loy type, and Kate, (not Willie) has been characterized as possessing Lucille Ball attributes, but doesn't come off nearly as likeable. Not to nitpick but our good friend Wiki reads Ball had small roles, (not a leading lady);
In 1929, Ball landed work as a model and later began her performing career on Broadway using the stage name "Diane Belmont". She appeared in many small movie roles in the 1930s as a contract player for RKO Radio Pictures. Ball was labeled as the "Queen of the Bs" (referring to her many roles in B-films).
What leading ladies are you talking about?
DocWhiskey said:Damn, Rocket Surgeon, you freakin' hate Willie with a passion don't you?
DocWhiskey said:I see your points. She's definetly a *****. No doubt about that. But she's supposed to be. She's an exaggeration (or sometimes not unfortunetly) of a Hollywood prima donna.
DocWhiskey said:She was the same whiny little ***** that she was in the first scene. I think that's why so many people hate her.
DocWhiskey said:I'm trying to decide who's a better person: Willie or Elsa?
Rocket Surgeon said:I think another actress could have brought better chops to the character.
Rocket Surgeon said:I always ask myself what would I have done if I were in that situation, and when I can't resolve the motivations because I can't relate, it makes me curious about the character. She might as well be Lucy from Peanuts...you know what? With how much I wanted Charlie Brown to kick her in the head instead of the football she would take away at least she had the Psychology booth going for her. I drew a couple of panels with Charlie Brown finally kicking her...maybe I should change them to Indy/Willie...hmmm.
I guess what bothers me is that a cartoon character has more depth than Willie Scott!
Rocket Surgeon said:Hmmm, well at best you could trust Willie to be Willie. By the time you got to know Elsa, it would have been to late. They both would see you as expendable. Better person? Although Elsa gradually showed her softer side, it's a draw.
Darth Vile said:Too many to mention in detail... As outlined in another post, like Marion, Willie is not a carbon copy of any single leading lady/character from the 30's/40's, but a composite of many with similar traits. From Katherine Hepburn (The Philadelphia Story & in part The African Queen), Bette Davis (Jezebel), Rita Hayworth (Gilda), Madeleine Carroll (The 39 Steps)… even a bit of Irene Dunne (A Guy Named Joe). All the direct and in-direct influences are there to be seen (IMHO).
Rocket Surgeon said:She might as well be Lucy from Peanuts...you know what? With how much I wanted Charlie Brown to kick her in the head instead of the football she would take away at least she had the Psychology booth going for her. I drew a couple of panels with Charlie Brown finally kicking her...maybe I should change them to Indy/Willie...hmmm.
ronicle said:I HATE Elsa so much! lol The first thing I think of when I look at her is vampire!
DocWhiskey said:And I find this hilarious.
Well, she is a succubus.
ronicle said:hmm.. I have trouble thinking of actresses who have similar traits to Williie... maybe a little Katherine Hepburn from her character Susan in "bringing up baby" she was very agitating in that movie.. but I think what Rocket is trying to say is that a good character should have many different sides, like Marion's character has so much depth, and Willie is so one dimensional, she does become somewhat tougher towards the end, but her character never really gets any deeper. I can laugh at Willie sometimes, that's the best I can say for her is that she gets a laugh out of me once and awhile..
Darth Vile said:Besides, I don't think Marion has that much depth to be honest. Sure she has a history with Indiana Jones, but ultimately Marion is just as much as a cliché/pastiche and as 2-dimensional as Willie (and Elsa).
Darth Vile said:Besides, I don't think Marion has that much depth to be honest... but ultimately Marion is just as much as a cliché/pastiche and as 2-dimensional as Willie (and Elsa).
Darth Vile said:Indeed, one could argue that Willie has much more of an emotional journey in TOD than Marion does in Raiders...
Rocket Surgeon said:Why start being honest now?
You finally came out with an opinion that wasn't qualified by, "one could argue that" or redefining the conversation with, "It's not really a question of". My all time favorite being the absolute waste of text, "it is what it is". Love that one...says absolutely nothing.
Rocket Surgeon said:But on to Marions two dimensionality, (if that's even a word). You should watch the movie again. Karen Allen's performance was exceptional, her expressions spoke volumes...her inflection was relatable.
Rocket Surgeon said:Indeed one could argue ANYTHING, as you continually illustrate...yet it's not a question of a more emotional journey, (since the character is TOTALY HYSTRIONIC), the question is why do you HATE Willie?
ronicle said:I really really disagree with you on this one! It's not just Marion's history with Indy that gives her depth, it's that her personality has so many different dimensions.. as opposed to Willie=screaming and Elsa=Nazi slut. I don't see anything cliche or 2-dimensional about Marion's character
Darth Vile said:She really isn't. We've already cited examples of those wonderful performances/characters from the likes of Katharine Hepburn and Bette Davis et al... Those can still be easily recalled 60/70 years later by anyone mildly interested in popular cinema… but I’m not convinced that in another 50 years time people will be eulogizing over Karen Allen. All that will really be remembered about Raiders is Harrison Fords performance and his iconic character. Like it or not, Marion is just an accessory (like Willie and Elsa).
Darth Vile said:What’s a complete waste of text is arguing a point about two rather secondary female characters… But you do seem overtly fastidious about what you have or haven’t an issue with.
Darth Vile said:LOL. It’s two words actually. But 10 out of 10 on the sh*tometer score mate. “Her inflection was relatable”. What sort of guff is that? Perhaps Indy’s hat was “Woven from the threads of an angels gown” too?
Darth Vile said:How is it going in the pot calling the kettle black business?
Darth Vile said:I’m not sure I ever stated I hated the character of Willie Scott... but anyway...eulogising over Karen Allen’s performance just seems like a hackneyed defence of a character that, similar to Willie/Elsa, is basically a cliché (and doesn't even rival that of Margot Kidders in Superman). I’m surprised that a man of your acclaim “don’t get it”.
ronicle said:when I think of Last Crusade I think of Indianda Jones, Indy's dad, and a blonde vampire.
Rocket Surgeon said:Marion is an accessory! You're a mean, spiteful littleman! Well, she's a smokin hot accessory and to paraphrase DeNiro in Meet the Parents; you have to earn her affection. Willie, a dog, is very easy to break, Indy just had to feed her...good thing Indy didn't hit it, he might have contracted some Singapore Dick-Slug. Cats don't sell out the way dogs do.
Rocket Surgeon said:Is that an Irish crack?!? Some of my friends are vampires! Sheesh!