The other officer with Gobler

As my first post I would to submit this question for discussion, something which has been bugging me for some time. As many times as I've watched the truck chase in Raiders, I've come to memorize it play by play, right down to how many soldiers are in the truck before Indy takes over (seven in back, two in the cab, nine in all), and, anyway, I noticed that in the jeep-like car with Gobler there is another officer, namely this guy (apologies if the pics are too big):




I jokingly call him "Belzig," on account of the fact Toht had that name in the script and sat in his place in the script.

Anyway, I'm trying to determine both what his rank might be and who plays him. He's certainly an oddity, as up until then Dietrich and Gobler are the only officers seen at Tanis, then this guy just pops up in the car during the "suiting up" scene, and I've always found this weird. So, anyone have any theories on him?

He's a nothing character, just set dressing, which is precisely why I figured an Indy board was the only place I'd be taken seriously about such a small element in the movie.

Judging by his insignia, I would say he is "Tall Captain" played by Tony Vogel.

Welcome to The Raven, kooshmeister.

Stoo said:

Judging by his insignia, I would say he is "Tall Captain" played by Tony Vogel.

Welcome to The Raven, kooshmeister.

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I thought that, too, but according to the script the Tall Captain is the officer on the island who says he has everything readied according to Belloq's instructions. (This could have been changed for the movie, though.)

And, thanks.

Kooshmeister said:

And, thanks.

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Hey, I tried (without bothering to look at the script)!
As far as rank goes, he appears to be either a lieutenant or a captain.

Let's just call him lieutenant Kooshmeister.

According to Imdb:

Continuity: Before the airplane fight, Gobler addresses Dietrich in German as "Herr Major", indicating Dietrich's rank equivalent to Major. After the airplane fight, his voice has changed (see above unsynchronized goof), and he changes Dietrich's rank to "Oberst" (equivalent to Colonel).

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I haven't checked to make sure that is true, but do we know what Gobler's rank is? It would make sense that Dietrich would be a Colonel, being the man in charge. Gobler would therefore be a Major or Captain. Our mystery officer would therefore be a Captain or Lieutenant.

I doubt Gobler and "Mystery" would both be lieutenants since Dietrich is a Colonel, it would make more sense to send a Captain or Major in this case.(as the Dietrich character)

I actually asked someone once that if Dietrich were a colonel (and he is, without doubt; not only does Gobler call him "Herr Oberst," but Belloq says, "Colonel, wake your men!"), what would Gobler's rank be, and was told he could be a lieutenant colonel.

And, Lieutenant Kooshmeister sounds like a fine name.

That just leaves the identity of the actor....

Oooh, nice find, Kooshmeister. I love little things like this.

I would guess him to be the same rank as Gobler, maybe one rank down, and I do think that Dietrich is a Colonel, not a Major, as Gobler first addresses him (when he says "Herr Major,". I think that was the mistake. He was correct when he said "Herr Oberst,").

No need for guess work as you can figure it out the ranks by their ingisnia.
The epaulettes (shoulder boards) are key.

-Dietrich is a colonel (knotted gilt, 2 gold pips)
-Gobler is a major (knotted gilt, no pips)
-Kooshmeister/Belzig is a 2nd lieutenant (standard officer shoulder board, no pips)

It’s funny because the insignia on their uniforms is another one of the anachronisms
in “Raiders”. The green stripes on the Dietrich & Gobler's collar tabs indicate they are
Panzer Division even though it’s 1936!

Thanks for the insight Stoo! I like learning about these sorts of details.

Hi to all,

My first post-I love the discussion on the board, just in regards to the arm of service the german officers belong to. in the screen cap I see the 2nd Lt has pink piping on his shoulder boards Rose Pink indicated the Panzer arm. Green as mentioned was either (light green) mountain troops or Grass Green (Motocyle troops). Yea I agree the panzer arm was in its infancy in 1936 making that officer a rarity -pretty special so to speak. Maybe the ark was to be mounted on a panzer? lol

I did not mean to step on any toes but i just thought i should point it out.

Anyway I love Raiders

Welcome to the Raven Col. Dovchenko!

Don't worry too much about stepping on anyone's toes; thanks for adding to the discussion. That's interesting bit of info on the greens... mountain troops but no mountains, motorcycle troops but no motorcycles, and Panzer division but no tanks. Hmm... Hitler felt like sending a grab-bag of troops down to get the Ark, I guess.

Col. Dovchenko said:

My first post-I love the discussion on the board, just in regards to the arm of service the german officers belong to. in the screen cap I see the 2nd Lt has pink piping on his shoulder boards Rose Pink indicated the Panzer arm. Green as mentioned was either (light green) mountain troops or Grass Green (Motocyle troops). Yea I agree the panzer arm was in its infancy in 1936 making that officer a rarity -pretty special so to speak. Maybe the ark was to be mounted on a panzer? lol

I did not mean to step on any toes but i just thought i should point it out.

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First off, welcome to The Raven, Col. Dovchenko!
No need to worry about stepping on toes. Your input is well appreciated!

Identifying the divisions is a tricky one since their uniforms seems to be hodge-podge of different types.
True, the 2nd lieutenant wears the pink of the Panzerjäger (can't see his collar tabs clearly, though)
Dietrich & Gobler have the green collar tabs of the Panzergrenadiers (sometimes it looks like the light green
Light/Mountain Infantry). Anyway, their epaulettes don't match as they have the white underlay of infantry.
Most of the men in the movie are infantry but there is one soldier eating at the table who has red piping (artillery).
Also, it's hard to tell but it looks like Pat Roach is field police (orange).

The motorcycle troops were part of motorized/armoured infantry which is why the share the grass green, no?
Now it's time to check "Last Crusade"! Isn't this fun?

Here are some other threads of Kooshmeister's that may interest you:
The troop car lives!
The Mercedes-Benz "gun car"?

I like your idea of mounting the Ark on a Panzer!

And my first thread on here still brings in conversation.

Stoo said:

Also, it's hard to tell but it looks like Pat Roach is field police (orange).

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Might this indicate that the German mechanic isn't actually a mechanic?

I think the problems with insignia of Nazi soldiers comes from the fact that some real WWII German uniforms were used in the movie. They probably took anything that fitted actors and was ok for the scene and didn't care that much if it's infantry, panzer or field police.

Kooshmeister said:

And my first thread on here still brings in conversation.

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Yes, because it's a damned, interesting one and not another "Who iz the hottest indy gril?" thread!

Attlia the Professor said:

Might this indicate that the German mechanic isn't actually a mechanic?

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I was thinking that, too, but the credits say "1st Mechanic". The script just calls him a "German".
Plus, I'm not 100% positive about the orange (but it sure does look that way to these eyes).

Mikus said:

I think the problems with insignia of Nazi soldiers comes from the fact that some real WWII German uniforms were used in the movie. They probably took anything that fitted actors and was ok for the scene and didn't care that much if it's infantry, panzer or field police.

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Oh, absolutely. Some guys have a tropical kit, some don't...We're just having fun! (I am anyway).

Stoo said:

I was thinking that, too, but the credits say "1st Mechanic". The script just calls him a "German".
Plus, I'm not 100% positive about the orange (but it sure does look that way to these eyes).

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Beyond the evidence of the credits, I think it can be agreed that for the purposes of the story he is meant to be a mechanic. How he is dressed and the fact that he starts a fistfight rather than just putting a gun to Indy's back, seems to indicate he is not a Field Police officer.

I didn't know where else to put this, but I thought it was amusing enough to share. It came about in a discussion on Rebelscum.com about future Indy figures and possible eyewear for the occupants of the troop car...

I'm sorry, but I just had to....


"Zee goggles! Zey do notzing!"

You can shoot me down like a dog later.

EDIT: Can anyone do an animated gif of that...?

Coming back to my original original post here on the boards. Thanks to Stoo, we many moons ago concluded that the officer in the car with Gobler is a 2nd lieutenant, but we never did decide who played him.

Anyone else think he looks like Terry Leonard, the stuntman who did the move under the truck? The chin, nose and ears are very similar.

Nah....Terry's face is wider. Look at 2nd Lt.'s head shape. It's more rectangular.



(Paul Freeman is making a public appearance soon. He might know the identity!)