Am I alone in hoping there's no Nazis?

Kooshmeister

New member
As much as I loved the Nazi bad guys in Raiders and Last Crusade, I don't want them to appear again. I really, really don't want the villains in this one to be a bunch of escaped Nazis trying to start a Fourth Reich or somesuch nonsense. I have the following reasons:

1. I do not I like the very pop-culture notion that Indiana's enemies have to be Nazis or else it isn't an Indiana Jones movie. This is the basis for my main fear of why Spielberg may cave despite his post-Shindler's List policy of depicting Nazis seriously; moviegoers demanding more Indy punching Nazis (or Indy-punching Nazis, as the case may be).

2. It's been done. In addition to two movies, practically every novel, game and comic book has had Nazis, Nazis, Nazis, to the point where I'm fairly certain Indy has taken on the entire army of Nazi Germany by this point. But I worry the failure of the Nazi-less Crystal Skull will make Spielberg and Lucas return to the Nazi well like they did with Last Crusade after people hated Temple of Doom.

3. There's just been enough of them already, and they're all already dead. Honestly if you want to have a Nazi villain it has to be a new one due to the fact they almost always, always die in the one story they're featured in.

Because of this, I feel the Nazi well has been tapped dry. So no Nazis please.
 
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INCUBUSRATM

New member
I agree, no more Nazis, but my one and only reason is simple- they've already been done. So let's move on and do something else. Although, I do agree that the Nazis being the enemy works really well in the Indiana Jones series.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
The 1957 Communists were a stand in for Nazis, but only because they made more historical sense. It's just a tag for a villainous enemy regime.

In fact, having the boys from Brazil, and the girls from Bolivia would be relief from yet another group of uniformed villians (as a potential next movie could have Mao's Communists).

In all seriousness we only saw one real Nazi unit in the Indy movies: Vogel's LAHSS. Other than that it was just Toht, and the few Gestapo in both ROTLA and TLC. For the '30s the German war machine was an obvious choice, as were the Russians in the '50s.

However, there is always the Temple of Doom option: a cult inhabiting a place far away from ordered and protected civilization.
 

Darth Vile

New member
I think this is one of the reasons why an older Indy, set in the 1950's, is constrained by its own design. WWII Germany Military/Nazi's are cinematic shorthand for 'villains'. Historically, Nazi's work as great baddies because there is a universal understanding of what they represented i.e. the personification of institutional evil. Film makers have found it easy to use this association to create largely 2-dimensional (but cinematically effective) villains (similar to how Native Americans were used in early Hollywood cinema). I mean, what other military regime/nationality would cinema goers happily see being blown to smithereens?

It is however, understandably, not as politically correct to depict Russian Soldiers as 'evil'. Therefore any intended automatic sense of villainy doesn't translate as effectively as Nazi's once did... and it isn't as politically correct seeing Russians blasted into oblivion (IMHO). Ultimately I personally felt that although the Russians were the obvious villains in KOTCS, they didn't have the nefarious resonance of the Germans from Raiders or TLC (largely because they weren't depicted in the same evil way).
 

INCUBUSRATM

New member
Didn't Russia or parts of it anyway get really mad about KOTCS and ban it, because it depicted "untrue things" that the Russians did? I don't know, maybe that was something else...
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
No, you're not.

I knew one person who thought all Indiana Jones films needed to have Nazis. I never understood this train of thought. There's just too many good possibilities out there than to just rely on Nazis(besides, I never thought they were really threatening in Last Crusade as they were in Raiders).
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Darth Vile said:
It is however, understandably, not as politically correct to depict Russian Soldiers as 'evil'. Therefore any intended automatic sense of villainy doesn't translate as effectively as Nazi's once did... and it isn't as politically correct seeing Russians blasted into oblivion (IMHO).

Stalin was slaughtering many years before Hitler jumped on the dictatorship wagon. I see the German soldiers in ROTLA as similar to the lot of many Russian soldiers: not as villains, but rather pawns in a game beyond their control. After all, Stalin had a novel method of clearing enemy minefields. Force solders to march across it arm in arm, singing, while commissars stand back at a safe distance ready to shoot 'deserters'.

The 'Nazi' tag is so overused, that it no longer applies to the 1933-1945 era, but to all the individuals employed during it. For movie-makers and writers that "automatic sense of villainy" becomes a short-hand get-out clause, which permits a 'hero' to commit murder.

For me, however, that gives Indy's character more depth. He's morally compromised and more interesting for it.
 
I wouldn't mind seeing and opening scene where he comes across a Nazi hiding in Argentina...

Reference some films other than their own...
 

Darth Vile

New member
Montana Smith said:
Stalin was slaughtering many years before Hitler jumped on the dictatorship wagon. I see the German soldiers in ROTLA as similar to the lot of many Russian soldiers: not as villains, but rather pawns in a game beyond their control. After all, Stalin had a novel method of clearing enemy minefields. Force solders to march across it arm in arm, singing, while commissars stand back at a safe distance ready to shoot 'deserters'.

The 'Nazi' tag is so overused, that it no longer applies to the 1933-1945 era, but to all the individuals employed during it. For movie-makers and writers that "automatic sense of villainy" becomes a short-hand get-out clause, which permits a 'hero' to commit murder.

For me, however, that gives Indy's character more depth. He's morally compromised and more interesting for it.

Of course agreed... it doesn't really matter what the historical/factual truth may be, but how audiences perceive and respond to it. One could easily argue that the way Spielberg et al have portrayed Nazi's/Gestapo/SS, in those earlier movies, actually undermines the reality/horror of what that regime actually did... and you are spot on, using Nazi's in the context of an action movie just gives the hero carte blanche to maim and murder without question (certainly in the context of Indy movies). Still, they make for great bloody movie villains (even if a somewhat overused and cheap trick).
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I wouldn't mind seeing and opening scene where he comes across a Nazi hiding in Argentina...

Reference some films other than their own...

It would have to be Otto Skorzeny, a man whose life almost rivaled Indy's for far-fetched adventure!

OttoSkorzeny.jpg
 

michael

Well-known member
Was Spielberg ever quoted to not use Nazis again in an Indy movie or just KOTCS?

I'm on board as to whatever makes for a more compelling movie, regardless if it's been tapped dry.
 

Rivers

Active member
INCUBUSRATM said:
Didn't Russia or parts of it anyway get really mad about KOTCS and ban it, because it depicted "untrue things" that the Russians did? I don't know, maybe that was something else...


Ya, I remember this also.... I dont think KOTCS was realeased there at all due to this. Indy's world wide box office would have been even bigger if it didnt have Communists and was released there. I bet it would have hit 1 billlion or very close to it.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Rivers said:
Ya, I remember this also.... I dont think KOTCS was realeased there at all due to this. Indy's world wide box office would have been even bigger if it didnt have Communists and was released there. I bet it would have hit 1 billlion or very close to it.

KOTCS was released in Russia.

And, no, the Russian market does not generate in excess of $200 million in box office!
 

INCUBUSRATM

New member
Lance Quazar said:
KOTCS was released in Russia.

And, no, the Russian market does not generate in excess of $200 million in box office!

Yeah, I wasn't sure that it did in fact occur, but I know it happened to a movie due to its content concerning Russian history. Maybe it didn't happen to KOTCS but was talked about that it could happen? But good to know our Russian friends got to experience it, too!
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Darth Vile said:
Of course agreed... it doesn't really matter what the historical/factual truth may be, but how audiences perceive and respond to it. One could easily argue that the way Spielberg et al have portrayed Nazi's/Gestapo/SS, in those earlier movies, actually undermines the reality/horror of what that regime actually did... and you are spot on, using Nazi's in the context of an action movie just gives the hero carte blanche to maim and murder without question (certainly in the context of Indy movies). Still, they make for great bloody movie villains (even if a somewhat overused and cheap trick).

I missed this post yesterday while responding to Rocket, Darth. I'm with you on all those points.

The only real menacing Nazi was Toht. In TLC, while we do get an SS unit, it's lead by a man who fits Dietrich's description from Campbell Black's ROTLA novelization of the "black suited clowns". Vogel cavorts around in his parade uniform, camping up the role. This was very much like the real thing, when you see some of the film from the time or read accounts. In his favour, Vogel was a veteran of the last war, but so many played dress-up without any military experience, passing orders to send millions to their deaths. Himmler would be the greatest example of that.

In terms of Indy villains it looks like the time has passed for the truly evil. We had Toht and Mola Ram, and then a softening with TLC and KOTCS.

One good inclusion in TLC was Elsa's divided conscience. She wasn't a Nazi, but she knew that they offered a route to the Grail. Allying herself with their cause, even superficially for her own ends was an expression of those who acquiesed between 1933-1945, seeing personal fortunes over the greater picture. It's a human condition, and will arise in any place where a figurehead with absolute power prevails.

However, with Indiana Jones moving forward in time, the only room for Nazis now lies with those who escaped in 1945. Either the real escapes to places such as South America, or the fictional ones to 'that fortress' in Antarctica. I don't think Spielberg would want to tackle the first, with unavoidable links to Simon Wiesenthal's mission. And to go the fantasy route to the icy south would either bring back UFOs (which seem to get attached to that idea), or recreate some James Bond lair.

There's also little in the way of archeaology down there. Unless, Indy uncovers the Predator's Xenomorph breeding program complex...
 

Rivers

Active member
Lance Quazar said:
KOTCS was released in Russia.

And, no, the Russian market does not generate in excess of $200 million in box office!



Yes... You are correct.... I stand corrected.... It made 16.8 million in Russia. But I too remember reading an artical where some county refused to relase it. Any one remember which one??
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rivers said:
Yes... You are correct.... I stand corrected.... It made 16.8 million in Russia. But I too remember reading an artical where some county refused to relase it. Any one remember which one??

The Communist Party called for it to be banned:

The Communist Party of the Russian Federation called for the film to be banned, accusing the production team of demonizing the Soviet Union. Party official Andrei Andreyev said: "It is very disturbing if talented directors want to provoke a new Cold War."[135] Another party official commented, "(I)n 1957 the USSR was not sending terrorists to America but sending the Sputnik satellite into space!"[136] Spielberg responded that he is not unfamiliar with Russia. He explained: "When we decided the fourth installment would take place in 1957, we had no choice but to make the Russians the enemies. World War II had just ended and the Cold War had begun. The U.S. didn't have any other enemies at the time."[137] The film's depiction of Peru also received criticism from the Peruvian and Spanish-speaking public.[138][139]

135. "Indiana angers Russian communists". BBC News Online. 2008-05-24. Retrieved 2008-05-25.

136. "Indiana Jones and the Propaganda Machine". Russia Today. 2008-05-23. Retrieved 2008-05-26.

137. "Steven Spielberg: "I'm Russian. But that doesn't explain a thing."". Komsomolskaya Pravda. 2008-05-24. Retrieved 2008-05-26.

138. "Califican en Perú de ofensivos errores en Indiana Jones". El Universal. 2008-05-30. Retrieved 2008-05-26.

139. http://www.filmaffinity.com/es/reviews2/1/301570.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Jones_and_the_Kingdom_of_the_Crystal_Skull
 

INCUBUSRATM

New member
That's it! The Communist party called for it to be banned... Thanks for clearing that up!

If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that everything is going to upset somebody.
 
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