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Old 04-27-2005, 02:30 AM   #126
Aaron H
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Ahhh, its nice to see that the newbies are poking around in the archives.
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Old 04-27-2005, 12:01 PM   #127
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I think the Eden concept has a better chance of becoming a movie than anything so far covered by a book, comic or video game. Max McCoy called the submission process at Lucasfilm "layered in bureaucracy" ...suggesting outlines filtered all the way up to Lucas and back down again. The movie script has been passed around since the 90's, and I bet Lucas steers any Indy publisher away from what's in it.

In TheRaider's author interviews, why not ask what story elements were off limits (assuming the authors are allowed to say)?
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Old 05-27-2005, 06:31 PM   #128
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Didn't we do eternal life already? Indy has to pursue his passion, The Ark was Ravenwoods, the rocks were stupid, the cup was his dad's what is Indy's thing? To ed the series, indy has to go on his quest, I know we can argue that savign his father was his quest, but no.

Hey what about Joesph Smiths Gold tablets? We all love Morons (read under the banner of Heaven)

Two things to keep in mind (I will keep repeating these) All the women are in this one and there is supernatural, what about the River Styx?
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Old 05-31-2005, 10:32 AM   #129
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Just curious, 'cause I thought it was funny...

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Originally Posted by roundshort
Hey what about Joesph Smiths Gold tablets? We all love Morons

Is this a typo, or did you do that on purpose?
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Old 05-31-2005, 11:19 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Junior-Jones
Just curious, 'cause I thought it was funny...



Is this a typo, or did you do that on purpose?

hahaha

that is funny.
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Old 06-01-2005, 11:18 AM   #131
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Well, it was a typo, as I can't spell! But it works out just as well.
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Old 06-13-2005, 01:33 PM   #132
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"Indy's no Morman. It's obvious, the Soviets want the Tree of Life, and they believe Indy has found it..."


Some Milton Imagery I found during research:

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Old 06-13-2005, 09:11 PM   #133
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Just a side note to this very interesting thread. One of the proposed sites of the Garden of Eden is within the Taurus Mountains, a mountain range in southern Turkey. The entry on the mountain range at nationmaster.com states this:
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Limestone has eroded to form karstic landscapes of waterfalls, underground rivers, and the largest caves of Asia.

That certainly sounds like a great site for adventure and peril, leading up to the challenges within Eden itself.
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:43 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paden
Just a side note to this very interesting thread. One of the proposed sites of the Garden of Eden is within the Taurus Mountains, a mountain range in southern Turkey.

I'm sure the South of Spain could easily double for this locale.

Is it just me -- or do you have to have sympathy for the devil in the Milton image?
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Old 06-14-2005, 11:03 AM   #135
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If you are suggesting a certain cherubic "Peter Pan" quality, I certainly can. Milton's Paradise Lost does not vilifiy Satan and his Minions in the same way Dante represents Hell.
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Old 10-03-2005, 02:28 PM   #136
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I hope that it is acceptable for me to warm this thread back up. It’s easily one of the most interesting I’ve run across here, and in rereading it this morning, it spurred some thoughts regarding the themes of some of the past Indiana Jones films, as well as a plausible one (at least in my mind) for Indy IV. For purposes of this post, I’m going to be talking about the films in chronological order. Translation: Temple of Doom took place prior to Raiders and Last Crusade and isn’t going to be included in what I’m extrapolating on. I am going to talk a little theology here, not from the standpoint of forcing the films to conform to a strict Biblical foundation (as I know creative license is going to be applied), but from the idea of how the movies tie in to certain Biblical concepts. Yes, the ride could get a little bumpy, so hang on.

The idea that Jones’ goal could be the Garden of Eden is one that has grown on me since I first read it proposed here. The more I’ve considered it, the more sense it makes within what I regard as some of the broader themes of the series. Eden, from a Biblical standpoint is the foundation of creation, where God first placed man following His creation of the earth and all that was within it. In what is frequently referred to as the Edenic Covenant, God had made mankind stewards over all that was in the earth, animals and plants alike: man was essentially the keeper of creation. Notably, Adam and Eve enjoyed unbroken fellowship with God and access to His holy presence, as sin had not yet entered human history. The only restriction on mankind was that the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil never be eaten. In essence, Eden was creation as God intended it to be, unsoiled by mankind’s rebellion. Of course, ultimately the serpent is able to deceive Eve, and through her Adam, into breaking God’s command, sin breaks man’s relationship with God, and the first covenant in broken. Man is forced out of the Garden.

Next God forges a covenant with Abraham, referred to as the Abramic Covenant, in which God promises to place His chosen people, the children of Israel (Jacob), in a land flowing with milk and honey. It takes some generations to see the covenant fulfilled, but it begins with the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt under the leadership of Moses. One key development during this time is the establishment of the tabernacle, where the Ark of the Covenant, crafted according to God’s instructions, is kept and represents the presence of God with His people. Throughout the exodus and into the conquest of Canaan, which is led by Joshua, God passes judgment on those nations that persist in wickedness and reject Him. Even the generation of Israelites that followed Moses out of Egypt are barred from entering Canaan due to their unbelief.

The New Covenant, established by Christ, answers the problem of sin. Luke 22:20: “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for you.” God’s Law, perfect and holy, cannot be fulfilled by imperfect man. Thus Christ fulfills the Law through a perfect life, and through His sacrificial death and resurrection, is able to offer man forgiveness of sin and reconciliation with God, restoring the fellowship that was lost at the Garden. In point of fact, Christ’s triumph over sin is first prophesied in the wake of the sin in the Garden (Genesis 3:15).

Now, to consider the Indiana Jones films in relation to the above, Jones has had interaction with artifacts significantly tied to two of the covenants named. The Ark of the Covenant is one of the central artifacts related to the fulfillment of the Abramic Covenant, and the Holy Grail is associated with Christ and the Last Supper, where He declared the establishment of the new covenant of grace. Now to interject Eden as central to the fourth Indiana Jones film would have Indy find an artifact/place that was associated with the first covenant, made at the onset of creation. The critical observer will notice that Jones has met with the covenants in their chronological order, until now, where this last prize is apparently from a period that precedes all of the others. But does it?

As already noted in this thread, the Tree of Life is mentioned prominently at the close of the Book of Revelation. “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.” (Revelation 22:1-2) “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.” (Revelation 22:14) A central part of the prophecy of Revelation is the fact that God remakes earth, creating a new earth that conforms to His original design: free of sin and corruption. In other words, Eden is restored and the earth becomes a place where man is able once more to have unbroken fellowship with God. In considering how Eden might relate to Indiana Jones thematically, I think it is this aspect of Eden that is relevant to Indiana’s experience.

So how does all this talk of covenants tie into the Indiana Jones films? I see it as follows:

Raiders of the Lost Ark: (Judgment) Jones is skeptical of the existence of the supernatural, (“Who knows…lightning…fire…the power of God.”) but is aware of its Biblical significance. Ultimately, those that are proud (Belloq, the Nazis) and would seek to manipulate power for their own selfish/evil ends are destroyed by the power of God, manifested through the Ark. Jones, who responds in reverence (Thank you, Deadlock ) is spared, and has a different respect for the Ark and the Power behind it.

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: (Forgiveness/Reconciliation) Through the quest for the Holy Grail, the past bitterness between Jones and his father is forgiven and their relationship is restored. Or, to look at it from a certain scriptural slant, the prodigal son returns to the father.

Indy IV: (Restoration) Jones, through his quest for Eden and another encounter with the supernatural is brought full circle, gaining something from the experience that enables him to come to peace with his life and the decisions, good and bad, that he has made. In settling with his past, he is afforded a new beginning.

Perhaps I’m drawing far too much into all of it (I have a bad tendency to do that at times), but as I considered it this morning, it made a lot of sense.

Oh, and for the record, I like the idea of the ambiguous ending, ala Shane.
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Old 10-05-2005, 07:55 AM   #137
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You probably are going to ridiculed a bit for your religious themes and ideas for the next movie Paden, but I love your ideas. I hope the next movie is based on another Biblical artifact or concept and I do think the tree of life plot would make a great Indy movie.
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:49 AM   #138
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Possibly TOJ,but I think that Paden has made the best case yet for the inclusion of Eden in IJ4.As the last covenant,it makes a fitting quest for Jones at this point in his life.
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Old 10-05-2005, 11:25 AM   #139
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"IJ& the First Covenant" would be perfect to follow "Last Crusade." The tree described in Revelations sounds like the apple tree Luther Burbank grafted together at his CA home. I'm still for a plot where the garden is replanted from tree of life seeds and regrown in a day, like in Genesis. But the flaming sword should be the McGuffin.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:07 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moedred
My suggestion back on the epic Tree of Life thread - which I wish someone would revive - was that the Soviets regrow the garden in Kazakhstan in 24 hours using ancient seeds from the tree, then nuke it when things get supernatural. Better than a trip to Aetherium.


You're wish is my command. Shameless plug for a re-read of a thread that never strays.
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Old 07-28-2006, 03:17 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundshort
Didn't we do eternal life already?
I think the pursuit should be for eternal youth. That's what the figurative flaming sword prevents us grown ups from returning to. Sex is the forbidden fruit, and there's a loss of innocence (paradise lost) after the act or desire. Sex is like climbing a hill on your way out of Eden. At the peak you get a glimpse of where you came from, but every time you get farther away.

The only way back is to plant your own seed. That's why I think this story is perfect for Indy 4 and the 1950's. Whether Indy has offspring or not, he's in the middle of a baby boom, with little Spielbergs and Lucases running around everywhere. His colleagues have families. Guys he led in WWII have families. (Maybe even Henry and Willie have kids.) It's the perfect environment for him to find one, want one or have one, while doing the ultimate research into where they come from.
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Old 07-28-2006, 04:45 PM   #142
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The more I think about Eden being used in Indy IV, the more exciting the idea sounds to me. This also wouldn't be the first time that Indy discovered a hidden "Eden"-like place. In many of the books, especially The Dinosaur Eggs, The Hollow Earth and The Interior World, he discovers hidden areas both in the earth and on the surface. They are often in remote and even unknown regions of the globe where few people would even bother to look. Placing Eden in the same position would work very well.
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Old 07-28-2006, 09:55 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moedred
I think the pursuit should be for eternal youth. That's what the figurative flaming sword prevents us grown ups from returning to. Sex is the forbidden fruit, and there's a loss of innocence (paradise lost) after the act or desire. Sex is like climbing a hill on your way out of Eden. At the peak you get a glimpse of where you came from, but every time you get farther away.

The only way back is to plant your own seed. That's why I think this story is perfect for Indy 4 and the 1950's. Whether Indy has offspring or not, he's in the middle of a baby boom, with little Spielbergs and Lucases running around everywhere. His colleagues have families. Guys he led in WWII have families. (Maybe even Henry and Willie have kids.) It's the perfect environment for him to find one, want one or have one, while doing the ultimate research into where they come from.


Yeah, I totally agree. Maybe it's Indys' young innocent offspring that in fact, is the only one who can open the gate to the Garden and faces temptations along the way. I think it should be a girl as all things to do with birth and fertility are associated with women.
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Old 07-29-2006, 11:12 PM   #144
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Personally I don't want to see a re-tread of Judeau-Christian Macguffins. The Garden of Eden is just another spin on the Holy Grail, anyway. Immortality... eternal youth... it's just splitting hairs. We've got:

1. Hebrew God artifact

2. Hindu god artifact

3. Christian God artifact

Another Judeau or Christian artifact would just be redundant, and watered-down.
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Old 07-30-2006, 06:39 PM   #145
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I would expect Lucas to craft an Eden that's 80% Judeo-Christian-Muslim (yes, Adam's in the Koran). Like Darth Maul for example, who turned out roughly 80% Satan with parts of other beasts and demons. With so much international box office at stake, it's just too tempting to reference origin stories from other cultres. They could graft on parts of the Mayan Sacred Tree Wacah Chan or the Norse Yggdrasil. The Tree of Knowledge might suggest Buddha's Bodhi tree or the Hindu tree of Jiva and Atman.
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Old 07-30-2006, 07:08 PM   #146
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Well, Islam does talk of Paradise, as does Jesus Christ in the Bible during his crucifiction (I know I spelt that wrong, the correct spelling has escaped my mind at the moment). Technically, one could say that Islam would be the next religion covered in the series. It would make sense as Spielberg did say something about Indy IV being a tad political.
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:00 AM   #147
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According to Lucas, Eden might even be Judeo-Christian-Wookie.
Remember Leia's speech on Kashyyyk in the Star Wars Holiday Special? "I hope that this day will always be a day of joy in which we can reconfirm our dedication and our courage. And more than anything else, our love for one another. This is the promise of the Tree of Life."
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Old 08-01-2006, 04:19 AM   #148
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I was thinking. By the way I really love this idea and its been an interesting read of all the posts. I have a theory I'd like to propose.

We're looking at a story set during the 1950's right? Maybe it will be the early 50's, a time not that far from the end of WWII. Spielberg is Jewish and he always has a link in most of his films with WWII, Schindler's List being an example. Maybe the artefact will be of Jewish heritage.

Remember, God's chosen people were of Israel who were begot by Abraham. God's first covenant was with Abraham and his people to follow. So I believe that the story for the fourth will be concerning something related to the Old Testament, like Raiders with the Ark - remember, LC was about the grail which is from the New Testament.

I'd say that the tree of life/garden of eden idea that has been proposed in this thread, is related to what the fourth Indy's plot will be in the sense that you're shooting in the right direction.

It will indeed be very interesting how this all turns out!
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Old 10-01-2006, 01:01 AM   #149
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I bet they're keeping a close eye on this film, 'The Fountain.'
http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/thefountain/trailer1/
So, to live forever you have to drink the sap from the Tree of Life? That's new.
And apparently it's in Spain.
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Old 10-01-2006, 06:51 PM   #150
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I bet you're right man. But if that's the subject of Indy 4, I4 will blow the Fountain away like Raiders of the Lost Ark did the very forgettable King Solomon's Mines. Although, KSM it did have Sharon Stone, heh

That Fountain preview is worth checking out.

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