The Western Movie Thread

PhantomStranger

New member
Attila the Professor said:
Although certainly inferior to Fort Apache and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon - agree, or disagree?


Inferior is such a harsh word. It makes it sound as if this is a bad movie. While I agree The two other movies are better ("She Wore A Yellow Ribbon' is brilliant) but "Rio Grande"is still a very enjoyable film with lots of action and a good story.
 

San Holo

Active member
Attila the Professor said:
To the first question, it seems unlikely - considering Ford's whole preoccupation with the loss, as well as his Catholic mores, the sadness of the Ethan/Martha love angle is that very probably, nothing ever transpired between them. And even accepting that it's possible that they could have had an affair at some point, before or after Martha's marriage to Aaron, nothing in anyone's performance seems to suggest, to me anyhow, that Debbie is Ethan's daughter and not his niece.

To the second, well, that's quite simple...Martin Pauley was discovered by Ethan some years ago after Indians (don't recall which tribe) killed his parents. With that said, Martin was certainly <I>raised</I> as though Debbie were his sister, albeit one who was rather young when he would have been older.

You are right that it seems unlikly, but to me it feels like Ford had much more to say. He was very traditional in some aspects, and his Catholic morals were evedent in the volumes of his work. But John Ford was also not afraid to rattle the cage of that traditional America that he loved so much. Most people don't understand the revolutionary aspect of The Searchers as an indictment of American racism- and I also think he was saying somthing about love and infidelity. Ethan Edwards is not the standard Western hero- he rides onto screen a Wanted man with a sack full of unminted gold "double eagles"- a past full of questions-wild,reckless, and dangerous- he's in love with his brothers wife-he is a killer who doesn't mind shooting a man in the back(not very honorable in the Old West).The list goes on, so why did Ford make this very complex character in Ethan Edwards? In general Ford was very complex and contradictory, so to me it doesn't seem too far off that Debbie could be his daughter-it's obvious that Ethan and Martha had some kind of affair, after which he left for the Civil War. Even after the War, Ethan did not come back home.. Just look at the character of Debbie,she had dark hair while her siblings had light. She was clearly Ethan's favorite...


I have to eat dinner now-To Be Continued:p
 

Attila the Professor

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Staff member
I had most of my response typed up, but then my internet went and froze so here's a sloppy, condensed form.

Sure, Debbie had dark hair, and so did Ethan, but then so did Martha and Aaron. Lucy and Ben were the only ones with lighter hair.

Did Debbie really seem like a favorite? Ethan may have been tender with her, especially in the whole scene about the gold locket, but at first he mistook her for Lucy, who was considerably older than Debbie, after all.

I don't feel like it's based on pure love for family that motivates Ethan on his quest. It's love for Martha, sure, and a desire to either stop miscegenation before it happens or to solve it by killing her, and also just that he has a psychopathic and obsessive personality. Your point is obviously well-taken that the Searchers is a deeply complex work, as are so many of Ford's, and that it wouldn't be entirely out of the question for Ethan and Martha to have actually had an affair in the past.

But with that said, I truly do feel that Ford's entire stance, critical though it may be, is still very Catholic, not so much in its morals, although that too is the case, but in his sense of the irrevocable loss that so often occurs when various ideals come into conflict. Consider Hallie's love for Tom despite being married to Ranse in <I>Liberty Valance</I>, or the devotion to their dead wives or lovers (Abe Lincoln, Nathan Brittles, Frank Skeffington, &c.) that so many of Ford's heroes demonstrate. Ethan's love for Martha is, like so many things about him, a perversion of one of the qualities of Ford's true heroes, but is also tragic in that it was likely never consummated.

Sure is nice to have someone to have a good conversation with about this film, though.

Oh, and an aside to PhantomStranger - I really don't think "inferior" sounds like any kind of value judgment other than a relative one. It's a lesser work than the other two in the trilogy, and there's no escaping that, but nobody's saying that it's bad, just that it's inferior. However, I do disagree with you on which is ultimate superior - that in Fort Apache, Henry Fonda's Thursday, and the heartbreaking final scene in which John Wayne's York defends and becomes him eclipse both the Pony-that-Walks scene and the "Lest we Forget" watch scene in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.
 

PhantomStranger

New member
You know, I might not agree with some of the comments posted here, but it sure is nice to see fellow fans of this genre discussing and commenting on these films. I'm glad people are enjoying this thread.

Today's movie:

"American Outlaws" (2001)
-Colin Farrell, Scott Caan, Ali Larter

Highly fictionalized account of the James-Younger gang.

This is one of those movies that no one seems to like but me. I think it's a fun movie. It's not a great movie, not by a long shot, but I enjoy it. Kind of a big budget "B" movie.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
PhantomStranger said:
You know, I might not agree with some of the comments posted here, but it sure is nice to see fellow fans of this genre discussing and commenting on these films. I'm glad people are enjoying this thread.


If you disagree with the comments, ENGAGE with them. Don't just sit there listing the movies you're viewing with your scintillating little capsule reviews - let's have some actual discussion. If you want the thread to be enjoyable, that's the way for that to happen.
 

otto rahn

New member
PhantomStranger said:
You know, I might not agree with some of the comments posted here, but it sure is nice to see fellow fans of this genre discussing and commenting on these films. I'm glad people are enjoying this thread.

Today's movie:

"American Outlaws" (2001)
-Colin Farrell, Scott Caan, Ali Larter

Highly fictionalized account of the James-Younger gang.

This is one of those movies that no one seems to like but me. I think it's a fun movie. It's not a great movie, not by a long shot, but I enjoy it. Kind of a big budget "B" movie.
Aren't ALL accounts of the james-Younger gang "highly fictionalized" ?
 

PhantomStranger

New member
otto rahn said:
Aren't ALL accounts of the james-Younger gang "highly fictionalized" ?

Your probably right. But at least some films (The Long Riders, The Assignation Of Jesse James) try to get at least some of the facts straight.

This weeks movie:

Three Godfathers (1948)
-John Wayne

Three outlaws on the run discover a dying woman and her baby. They swear to bring the infant to safety across the desert, even at the risk of their own lives.

Minor John Ford/John Wayne classic. Lots of fun and perfect for the Christmas season.

Happy New Year Everyone!!
 

PhantomStranger

New member
"Three Godfathers" (1936)
-Chester Morris

Four outlaws come to New Jerusalem, a town full of courteous and religious people, to rob the bank. After shooting the president of the bank, only three make it out of town followed by the posse. By the time they get to the second desert water hole, they find it dry and also find a wagon with a dying mother and baby. When the horses are dead the next morning, the three outlaws have no choice but to try to walk back to New Jerusalem and only two want to take the baby.

Though Chester Morris and Lewis Stone aren't exactly names identified with westerns, together with Walter Brennan they do a very nice job in bringing this earlier and harsher version of the story of Three Godfathers, outlaws who give an infant a chance at life.

Rather than the Three Godfathers from John Ford's later and more famous version, a trio of happy go lucky outlaws who rob a bank and get a posse after them, these are a much tougher group who drift into New Jerusalem one at a time. Morris is from there and hasn't got pleasant memories of the place. He's the one who wants to rob the bank and give a little payback to the town, especially to bank manager Robert Livingston who's going to marry Irene Hervey, Morris's former sweetheart.

Of course out on the desert the trio finds a dying woman with an infant and Brennan and Stone want to help, but Morris very reluctantly goes along. Let's just say that they meet a much meaner end than John Ford gave them in his version.

I do love the chemistry between Stone and Brennan, the college graduate who carries Shakespeare and Schopenhauer in his saddlebags and the illiterate nabob. Stone does not however demean Brennan at all and my favorite scene is him singing Boola Boola in the desert which Morris identifies for Brennan as Stone's old school song.

Richard Boleslavski does not give us the sweeping desert vistas of John Ford's Monument Valley, but this Three Godfathers has a class and dignity all its own.
 

San Holo

Active member
For you Lonesome Dove fans out there-this morning, I read in USA Today a pretty scathing review of the Comanche Moon mini-series. I loved this book, and still remain hopeful that the film captures at least a little bit of Lonesome Dove's magic.
 
Speaking of John Wayne movies, howcome the guy gets killed all the time in his movies? I am tired of rooting for the guy for 95 minutes only to have him recieve an arrow in the back or get shot by a child or something along those lines. The Cowboys is his most shocking expiry IMO.
 

Attila the Professor

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Staff member
herr gruber said:
Speaking of John Wayne movies, howcome the guy gets killed all the time in his movies? I am tired of rooting for the guy for 95 minutes only to have him recieve an arrow in the back or get shot by a child or something along those lines. The Cowboys is his most shocking expiry IMO.

John Wayne was in 170 films, 91 of which were made after Stagecoach, his breakout starring role. He died, by most counts, in just 7 of them on-screen, and 5 of them off-screen.

http://www.jwaynefan.com/dukedied.html
 
Attila the Professor said:
John Wayne was in 170 films, 91 of which were made after Stagecoach, his breakout starring role. He died, by most counts, in just 7 of them on-screen, and 5 of them off-screen.

http://www.jwaynefan.com/dukedied.html

Twelve deaths for the leading man is a significant amount. The only other stars I can think of with a high death count are Charlton Heston and James Cagney. However,the Duke has to be the King.
 

Attila the Professor

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Staff member
They had three listed - one was an off-screen death in The Glenn Miller Story, and I don't recall the other two. He seems to do pretty well for himself.
 
Ahh, yes. The old plane crash Glenn Miller ploy. Or was that Buddy Holly... People who wear glasses should not ride planes.
 
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PhantomStranger

New member
"A Time For Killing" (1967)

-Glenn Ford, George Hamilton

During the Civil War Confederate soldiers escape from a Union prison and head for the Mexican border. Along the way they kill a Union courier who has a message that the war is over. Keeping the message a secret, the Captain has his men go on and they soon find themselves in a battle with the Union search party who also is unaware of the war's end.

A decent movie with some good action scenes. I think the film makers were trying for a spaghetti western atmosphere, complete with extreme violence, crazy characters and desolate desert scenes. One fun thing about this movie is seeing lots of familiar actors in supporting parts. Max Baer jr (from "The Beverly Hillbillies) Dick Miller (from many low budget horror movies) and a very young Harrison Ford (billed as Harrison J. Ford) in a blink and you'll miss him role as a union soldier.
 

PhantomStranger

New member
"Gunslingers Revenge" (2005)
-Harvey Keital, David Bowie

This neo-spaghetti Western boasts an unusual combination of cast members, and was shot on location in Italy's gorgeous Tuscan mountains. Popular Italian comic actor Leonardo Pieracconi is Doc, a small-town physician who lives with his wife (Sandrine Holt,) and young son (Yudii Mercredi), who narrates the story. They enjoy a peaceful existence, with Doc opposed to all forms of violence and ecological destruction, and serving as a mediator in the town's disputes. This placidity is disturbed when Doc's father Johnny Lowen (Harvey Keitel,) shows up after abandoning the family 20 years ago. An infamous gunslinger looking to retire, his reception is less than warm, as Doc harbors much resentment towards his father. This situation is aggravated when Johnny's nemesis Jack Sikora (David Bowie,) comes to town looking for a showdown. This quirky curio was shot in Italian, with Keitel's voice dubbed in.

An okay film, but instantly forgettable.
 
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