TheRaider.net
 

Go Back   The Raven > Beyond the Films > General Indiana Jones Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-17-2018, 07:40 PM   #1
Indyologist
IndyFan
 
Indyologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Buffalo, New York
Posts: 2,032
Marion Article Re: Indy an abusive creep?

Here is an interesting article (including interesting comments at the end) questioning Indy & Marion's relationship when she was 16 years old and Indy was much older. Is Indy a pervert or not? Do you think their relationship when Marion was that young is typical of that time? Do you think their relationship was appropriate?

(Note: you might have to scroll down to read the article as a big ad may pop up.)

https://www.polygon.com/2015/8/3/908...-abusive-creep

Your thoughts/comments/ponderings on this subject are welcome!
Indyologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2018, 04:01 AM   #2
Joosse
IndyFan
 
Joosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Uithoorn, the Netherlands
Posts: 387
I hate these attempts from the media to villify our heroes, like Han Solo and Indiana Jones.

There was a similar article not that long ago where they said Indy was a rapist because he pulls Willie in with his whip after she had just said no.

Seriously guys. I know there is a whole lot wrong with Hollywood's treatment of women. But don't go looking for problems where they aren't there.

Yes, if they had worked in Indy's relationship with a very young Marion and with the girl from his class it would indeed have been a problem.

But they decided to go another way.

End of story.
Joosse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2018, 01:50 PM   #3
Raiders112390
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,038
Also what these people don't understand is that Indiana Jones is, and was written, as an anti-hero. This is a guy who wants to make extra money in Depression era and robs from tombs and works for gangsters to get it. He injures or shoots anyone who gets in his way. We like him because Harrison Ford is charming in the role, because the stories are interesting and because John Williams is amazing. In real life, Indiana Jones would be a scumbag. A likable one, but the "rat" nature of is character is even outlined in the 78 story conference. Sleeping with a teenage Marion is among his lesser misdeeds. He was not written as a Mr. Clean hero and didn't become more of a nice guy until LC.
Raiders112390 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2018, 02:40 PM   #4
Pale Horse
Moderator
 
Pale Horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 6,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
He was not written as a Mr. Clean hero and didn't become more of a nice guy until LC.

The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles would like to disagree with you. So would Lucas himself:

Quote:
Raiders of the Lost Ark
Story Treatment by George Lucas
1/25/78

Indiana Jones is a Ph.D. archeologist and an anthropologist. He is a professor at a small Eastern college and is a respected authority in his field although he is only thirty-eight years old. He is a quiet man on campus, with rugged good looks under his horn-rimmed glasses. He is the heartthrob for all the young coeds, a situation that he has helped to foster, and isn't reluctant to take advantage of.

He is a bachelor playboy, with a fondness for the good life; famous nightclubs, champagne, and especially beautiful women. His nightlife is a sharp contrast to his quiet days as a college professor. In his tuxedo (and without his glasses) he is the prototype of the Eastern playboy of the 1930's. He plays polo and pool and is quite a gambler. He lives in a large 30's-style house, and also has a penthouse apartment in Manhattan.

He can afford the good life because of his second occupation. He is a soldier of fortune, and a procurer of rare antiquities. A bounty hunter hired by museums and private collectors to find ancient artifacts and bring them back, no questions asked. He is a tomb robber, but draws the line at stealing from colleges or museums. He has a keen interest in the occult, and specializes in artifacts/religious objects protected by curses, etc. He is a terrible shot, but a [master] with the bullwhip that he always carries with him. He is a good fighter.

as noted Here.

He's not a dirty-rat or anti-hero, and he's no scoundrel either.
Pale Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2018, 06:15 PM   #5
Raiders112390
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles would like to disagree with you. So would Lucas himself:



as noted Here.

He's not a dirty-rat or anti-hero, and he's no scoundrel either.

Indiana Jones is a Ph.D. archeologist and an anthropologist. He is a professor at a small Eastern college and is a respected authority in his field although he is only thirty-eight years old. He is a quiet man on campus, with rugged good looks under his horn-rimmed glasses. He is the heartthrob for all the young coeds, a situation that he has helped to foster, and isn't reluctant to take advantage of.

He is a bachelor playboy, with a fondness for the good life; famous nightclubs, champagne, and especially beautiful women. His nightlife is a sharp contrast to his quiet days as a college professor. In his tuxedo (and without his glasses) he is the prototype of the Eastern playboy of the 1930's. He plays polo and pool and is quite a gambler. He lives in a large 30's-style house, and also has a penthouse apartment in Manhattan.

He can afford the good life because of his second occupation. He is a soldier of fortune, and a procurer of rare antiquities. A bounty hunter hired by museums and private collectors to find ancient artifacts and bring them back, no questions asked. He is a tomb robber, but draws the line at stealing from colleges or museums. He has a keen interest in the occult, and specializes in artifacts/religious objects protected by curses, etc. He is a terrible shot, but a [master] with the bullwhip that he always carries with him. He is a good fighter.
Raiders112390 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2018, 08:51 AM   #6
deepermagic
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Alexandretta!
Posts: 26
There's a segment of people who will stop at nothing to destroy what they perceive as toxic masculinity. This attack is made to taint the character in order that someone somewhere doesn't think Indiana Jones is someone to emulate or even appreciate.

They don't want men of action who solve things with their quick wit and fists. They focus on perceived flaws to justify their position. The fact is, the actual film doesn't get into ages or even discuss things of a sexual nature surrounding their relationship.

Every social justice movement that takes hold is another way to push characters like Indiana Jones to the fringe. This is just a goon trying to ride the MeToo wave over the past in order to establish a new normal where guys like Indiana Jones are ultimately viewed as harmful and dangerous.
deepermagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2018, 01:34 PM   #7
JasonMa
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepermagic
The fact is, the actual film doesn't get into ages or even discuss things of a sexual nature surrounding their relationship.
Well, there is the "I was a child!" "You knew what you were doing" interchange, which doesn't explicitly reference either of those areas but its not hard to infer something wasn't quite right (in a modern setting) from it. But it was the 1920's, there were different societal norms then. Good friends of the family (both my in-laws and my wife and I) were an elderly couple that married when she was 14, before WWII. That wasn't a huge issue then, but it would be considered unacceptable now.
JasonMa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2018, 04:46 PM   #8
Forbidden Eye
IndyFan
 
Forbidden Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: With the Treasure of Mara...
Posts: 991
Believe it or not, I’ve been thinking about this A LOT, ever since the #metoo movement started. I knew sooner or later, the SJWs would attack Indiana Jones in some form of ‘morality’ code.

Considering where our culture is now, where our Ghostbusters HAS star women, I’m rather nervous about the future of this once classic series. This could create problems, especially if they ever want to “reboot” Indy in his younger days.

It may not be long where everyone will start to nostalgize, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, similar to how many are now even nostalgizing the Star Wars prequels after the Disney-era installments.
Forbidden Eye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 06:07 AM   #9
Indyologist
IndyFan
 
Indyologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Buffalo, New York
Posts: 2,032
Interesting observations, guys. Very interesting...
Indyologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 11:16 AM   #10
Z dweller
IndyFan
 
Z dweller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: The old colonel was right - but he never even got close...
Posts: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbidden Eye
It may not be long where everyone will start to nostalgize, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
Wow... that's got to be the darkest post on these boards... ever.
Z dweller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 11:25 AM   #11
Pale Horse
Moderator
 
Pale Horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 6,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z dweller
Wow... that's got to be the darkest post on these boards... ever.

That's why this forum still has mods. If we ever see nostalgia for KotCS, it will be immediately removed, and the posters fingers will be removed and turned into a necklace warning for anyone to follow.
Pale Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2018, 11:33 AM   #12
Z dweller
IndyFan
 
Z dweller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: The old colonel was right - but he never even got close...
Posts: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
That's why this forum still has mods. If we ever see nostalgia for KotCS, it will be immediately removed, and the posters fingers will be removed and turned into a necklace warning for anyone to follow.
You da man!
Z dweller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2018, 12:35 AM   #13
Joosse
IndyFan
 
Joosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Uithoorn, the Netherlands
Posts: 387
I don't know man, if you look at The Last Jedi, Crystal Skull starts to look pretty darn good...
Joosse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2018, 09:37 AM   #14
Pale Horse
Moderator
 
Pale Horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 6,981
^^ this is why the terrorists have won.^^
Pale Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2018, 01:11 AM   #15
Attila the Professor
Moderator
 
Attila the Professor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United States
Posts: 6,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joosse
I don't know man, if you look at The Last Jedi, Crystal Skull starts to look pretty darn good...

Yes, putting The Last Jedi, a solid contender for the Star Wars film with the most stunning visuals and compelling ideas, next to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, a film whose best ideas and visuals run out roughly when we cut away from the mushroom cloud, makes Crystal Skull look like...well, maybe another misunderstood masterpiece? If you're feeling generous?

Anyway, here's another article that at predation-as-romance in movies entirely through the work of Harrison Ford. Yes, Indy's mentioned.

Last edited by Attila the Professor : 06-23-2018 at 02:04 AM.
Attila the Professor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2018, 06:00 PM   #16
Lance Quazar
IndyFan
 
Lance Quazar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lost
Posts: 1,887
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390

He is a bachelor playboy, with a fondness for the good life; famous nightclubs, champagne, and especially beautiful women. His nightlife is a sharp contrast to his quiet days as a college professor. In his tuxedo (and without his glasses) he is the prototype of the Eastern playboy of the 1930's. He plays polo and pool and is quite a gambler. He lives in a large 30's-style house, and also has a penthouse apartment in Manhattan.


Where are you getting this from? Because it certainly isn't the films.

As initially scripted, Indy was going to be wearing a tuxedo, drinking champagne and entertaining a young woman in "Raiders" when marcus drops by to give him the news about the Ark mission.

However, that wasn't filmed. In the actual version, Indy is home alone in a dressing gown. So they deliberately moved away from the notion of him as a "swinging playboy." He's also notably flustered and awkward when his student openly flirts with him, hardly the reaction one would expect from a "playboy."

In "Temple of Doom", Indy shows absolutely zero interest in Willie, an obviously attractive young woman who tries to flirt with him, when they are first introduced. It's clear he's at the swanky Club Obi Wan strictly for business only. He only shows interest in Willie later, after they've been together for a few days and shared some harrowing experiences.

Yes, indy is pretty aggressive in his flirtations with Elsa right off the bat, but at least she's a professional equal.
Lance Quazar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2018, 07:38 AM   #17
Pale Horse
Moderator
 
Pale Horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 6,981
See my post which he quoted.
Pale Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2018, 09:59 AM   #18
IndyBuff
IndyFan
 
IndyBuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbidden Eye
Believe it or not, I’ve been thinking about this A LOT, ever since the #metoo movement started. I knew sooner or later, the SJWs would attack Indiana Jones in some form of ‘morality’ code.

Considering where our culture is now, where our Ghostbusters HAS star women, I’m rather nervous about the future of this once classic series. This could create problems, especially if they ever want to “reboot” Indy in his younger days.

It may not be long where everyone will start to nostalgize, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, similar to how many are now even nostalgizing the Star Wars prequels after the Disney-era installments.

I've been thinking some similar thoughts. Regardless of what you may think of KOTCS or the prequels, they at least avoided political correctness and didn't feel like they had any agenda attached to them. Disney can't resist inserting that stuff into their movies these days and it makes me very concerned about what they'll do to Indy from here on out.
IndyBuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2018, 02:14 PM   #19
Indyologist
IndyFan
 
Indyologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Buffalo, New York
Posts: 2,032
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyBuff
I've been thinking some similar thoughts. Regardless of what you may think of KOTCS or the prequels, they at least avoided political correctness and didn't feel like they had any agenda attached to them. Disney can't resist inserting that stuff into their movies these days and it makes me very concerned about what they'll do to Indy from here on out.

This inspires me as I feel the same way. In the next 7-10 days, look for my topic, "The Disneyification of Indiana Jones" where I'll share my thoughts/concerns about this... ~Indylogist
Indyologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2018, 02:12 PM   #20
Joosse
IndyFan
 
Joosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Uithoorn, the Netherlands
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
Yes, putting The Last Jedi, a solid contender for the Star Wars film with the most stunning visuals and compelling ideas, next to Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, a film whose best ideas and visuals run out roughly when we cut away from the mushroom cloud, makes Crystal Skull look like...well, maybe another misunderstood masterpiece? If you're feeling generous?


Oh, the visuals were stunning. The story was terrible however. And no I am not upset about how they treated Luke or anything like that. To me the problems lie in the inconsistencies in the story. For instance, the resistance can't use their hyperdrive. Fair enough. But suddenly the first order forgets that they have hyperdrives that they can use?

And many more examples like that, but let's not get into that over here.

I am much more interested in this story you quoted :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
Anyway, here's another article that at predation-as-romance in movies entirely through the work of Harrison Ford. Yes, Indy's mentioned.

What a completely horrible article.

I mean yes, Deckard is a bastard. Not a nice guy. He is not a lovable rogue. But he is supposed to be a bastard. The scene in Blade runner is supposed to be disturbing. That is its function.

The author of the article seems unable to understand that Ford has played several roles.

Deckard is not Indy and Indy is not Solo.

They are all played by the same guy, but they are different characters.

And the other examples he uses are so far fetched.

I mean we all know that Willie and Indy are playing around at the end of Temple.

The thing that is troubling me is that people are writing articles like these. I keep wondering what their agenda is in this?
Joosse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2018, 12:09 PM   #21
Stoo
IndyFan
 
Stoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 8,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
Anyway, here's another article that at predation-as-romance in movies entirely through the work of Harrison Ford. Yes, Indy's mentioned.
People like "Jonathan" of BlahBlahBlah.com and their ilk can go f*ck themselves.
Stoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2018, 12:50 PM   #22
Joosse
IndyFan
 
Joosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Uithoorn, the Netherlands
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
People like "Jonathan" of BlahBlahBlah.com and their ilk can go f*ck themselves.

Eloquently put, my friend.
Joosse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2018, 03:13 PM   #23
deepermagic
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Alexandretta!
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joosse
The thing that is troubling me is that people are writing articles like these. I keep wondering what their agenda is in this?

I think their agenda is close to what I mentioned earlier: to establish a new normal where guys like Indiana Jones are ultimately viewed as harmful and dangerous.
deepermagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2018, 05:22 PM   #24
Joosse
IndyFan
 
Joosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Uithoorn, the Netherlands
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepermagic
I think their agenda is close to what I mentioned earlier: to establish a new normal where guys like Indiana Jones are ultimately viewed as harmful and dangerous.

The huge problem in this article is the generalization of Ford's roles.

Yes, Deckard is harmful and dangerous.

Solo is someone who presents himself as dangerous, but deep down has a heart of gold.

And Indy?

Well, he's a teacher.

Seeing that Indiana Jones was a teacher, and cool, made me want to become a teacher.

Can't have that, now can we. Harmful and dangerous. Young people might actually start to think...

No indeed, let's stick to the values that Disney teaches us.

Frozen indeed. Don't get me wrong, I love the movie, but apart from telling us that society is naturally divided between a ruling elite and a working class (pretty accurate) it shows us that what you really need to succeed in life is magic. Not hard work.

But my personal favorite has to be the little mermaid. Again Iove the movie. But what does it teach kids?

"That it is okay to breach a contract, and if someone disagrees with that then you should just have them killed."

Last edited by Joosse : 06-26-2018 at 05:36 PM.
Joosse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2018, 02:20 PM   #25
Indyologist
IndyFan
 
Indyologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Buffalo, New York
Posts: 2,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joosse
"That it is okay to breach a contract, and if someone disagrees with that then you should just have them killed."

Interesting-- who said this? Forgive my ignorance. Also, I love The Little Mermaid too. I have been loving and collecting all kinds of mermaid stuff since I was a kid!
Indyologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:17 AM.