One flaw - did anyone wish there was more action?

Raiders90

Well-known member
I just rewatched, for the first time in a while, The Mummy Returns. That movie is chockfull of action, swordplay, chases etc...Does anyone wish we had gotten more action (A car chase or two, a gunfight or three) along with some more Ford ass kicking? I think that's the one thing that is really missing from Indy 4 - car chases and gunfights or a sword fight.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
The Mummy Returns is a very, very bad film. And I have this feeling that it's the very reason why it's so chock-full of cheesy action - to draw people's attention away from the fact.

So, no, adding a few more action secquences - which, perhaps apart from the Ugha temple finale, are actually very good even in the existing piece - would not really fix the flaws KotCS has (which are, in part, greatly overblown).

But maybe less people would have noticed 'em.
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Finn said:
The Mummy Returns is a very, very bad film. And I have this feeling that it's the very reason why it's so chock-full of cheesy action - to draw people's attention away from the fact.

So, no, adding a few more action secquences - which, perhaps apart from the Ugha temple finale, are actually very good even in the existing piece - would not really fix the flaws KotCS has (which are, in part, greatly overblown).

But maybe less people would have noticed 'em.

But didn't a part of you ever wish to see Indy in sort of...overblown epic sort of action? I mean I don't find it cheesy, I find it kind of "badass"....I think Mummy Returns has actually gotten better with age. It's a pure B movie. It just seems like Indy 4 is kind of low on action:

No car chases
No gunfights - hell, only a single gunshot from Dr. Jones
No tense brawls. Indy vs. Dovechenko wasn't anything like Indy vs say, the Thugee Guard

I liked the way the action scenes in the YIJC were handled - very energetic, very badass. The action in KOTCS feels like what it was - like it was filmed by a less energetic older director.
 

Gear

New member
Raiders112390 said:
[?] Indy 4 [?]

No car chases.

What?? No... as I reiterate, the first third or so of the film was the best. Actually, Mutt decapitating Marcus's statue was pretty fun, looking back.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Stoo could be right - maybe we oughta ban everyone who throws word "epic" 'round like it was candy.

I'd say 112390's opinion kind of reveals that KotCS' issues lie elsewhere than it is action sequences, as they have an effect on the entire film and obviously make even those feel somewhat lackluster. When studied as independent scenes, I don't really find plenty lacking in them. They're all inventive, meticulously coreographed and well shot. Main examples are the warehouse sequence and its two lengthy chase sequences, the campus chase and the jungle chase (as opposed to 'none' as somebody seems to recall).

There wasn't all that much gunplay - but not that the earlier films have exactly been laden with 'em either - and as far as the two fistfights with Dovchenko go, I guess that's your opinion if you felt they're not "tense".

Overall, the film's raw amount of action was actually very much on par with those of its predecessors. The thing is however, that plenty of it was conveyed through characters other than Indy - like Mutt and Spalko - obviously because Ford wasn't further able to do everything he could in the 80s. It was a clear deviation from the original trilogy, where Indy was front and centre throughout, and the sidekicks like Sallah and Shorty and villains like Belloq and Donovan very much stayed on the sidelines when dung hit the fan.

So ultimately, no, I don't think adding more action to the film would have made it much good - possibly the opposite, because it would have meant even less screentime for the main man.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
I didn't feel like Crystal Skull had a dearth of action sequences. The problem was that they weren't very thrilling. Articulating why is difficult. Because it's Spielberg, it's all very competently put together. But in Crystal Skull it's competent in a very pre-viz, manufactured kind of way.

Also I don't know if Ford was any less involved with the action this time out, honestly. He seems just as physical as he is in the previous movies.
 
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Randy_Flagg

Well-known member
Udvarnoky said:
I didn't feel like Crystal Skull had a dearth of action sequences. The problem was that they weren't very thrilling.

That's the key, I think. They weren't thrilling because it never really felt like Indy was in any danger. Aside from the Doomtown scene, I was never at the edge of my seat thinking, "How the hell is he going to get out of this one?!"

Most of Indy 4 was kind of the equivalent of watching somebody ride a rollercoaster... sure it's moving quickly, and looks like it might be fun to be on it yourself, but you're not really all that invested in it because there's no real sense of danger. It's all just a bit light-hearted fun. And of course Indy movies SHOULD be fun, but they also need to have edge-of-your-seat moments where you feel a sense of danger.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Raiders112390 said:
I think that's the one thing that is really missing from Indy 4 - car chases and gunfights or a sword fight.
Those aren't "one thing". Anyway, are you for real?:confused: Indy 4 had a sword fight + *3* car chases.
Pale Horse said:
An EPIC banning, if you will. :p
If 2 or more would be delivered in a row, the chumps will call it a FRANCHISE of bannings.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Stoo said:
Those aren't "one thing". Anyway, are you for real?:confused: Indy 4 had a sword fight + *3* car chases.
If 2 or more would be delivered in a row, the chumps will call it a FRANCHISE of bannings.

An EPIC FRANCHISE OF BANNINGS!!! :p
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Stoo said:
Those aren't "one thing". Anyway, are you for real?:confused: Indy 4 had a sword fight + *3* car chases.
If 2 or more would be delivered in a row, the chumps will call it a FRANCHISE of bannings.

Okay, let me phrase it clearer: None of those scenes were ones with Indy front and center. I don't go to an Indy film to watch Mutt kick ass....In one of the car chases, Indy is being passed back and forth between cars and being driven on a bike by Mutt, and it's played kind of for laughs. In another (the first chase), you get the stupid "You don't know him, you don't know him" bit which ruins it. In the Jungle chase, Mutt is driving the action.

When I'm talking car chases, I'm talking ones which have high energy and where Indy is front and center - the truck chase from Raiders, the first car chase and mine cart sequence from TOD, the boat and bike chase in LC.

There is no scene in Indy 4, in terms of action, in which Harrison is front and center. Even the Dovchenko fight, while it's the first one Indy wins fair and square, lacks the energy level of a scene like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q720Fe7IDMk
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
This, albeit short, is the kind of action I was hoping for in Indy 4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9d_sUPa90

Even though it's from the TV show, it's tense. It feels that right mix of classic Indy camp and seriousness. It's atmosphere - Early 1950s, snowbound car sequence, not something we've seen before - shot well. Indy at the wheel.
 

Z dweller

Well-known member
Udvarnoky said:
Then a lack of energy is your issue, not that Indy isn't front-and-center.
Yep, that's what his posts clearly imply. He just doesn't see it.

Many others have also pointed out the same lack of energy in KOTCS as its main shortfall.
But surely this is inevitable for any movie with an older Indy, set in the 50s or 60s.

Put simply, in order to maintain the film series' typical level of action and energy in the face of an aging main character, there are only two possible alternatives.

A) Assign a more active role to other characters, like Mutt.
But by definition their action scenes cannot be longer and/or better than Indy's, or it's not an Indy movie anymore. Hence the overall lack of energy.

B) Relegate older Indy to a bookend-type role and show most of the action scenes in flashback, with a younger actor in the lead role.

That's it.

And that's why I for one have no desire to watch another Indy movie with Ford, unless he accepts said bookend role.

And yet, ironically, we get so many Raveners complaining about the lack of energy in Skulls, while at the same time clamoring for Ford to carry the whole Indy 5 on his own. :rolleyes:
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Z dweller said:
Yep, that's what his posts clearly imply. He just doesn't see it.

Many others have also pointed out the same lack of energy in KOTCS as its main shortfall.
But surely this is inevitable for any movie with an older Indy, set in the 50s or 60s.

Put simply, in order to maintain the film series' typical level of action and energy in the face of an aging main character, there are only two possible alternatives.

A) Assign a more active role to other characters, like Mutt.
But by definition their action scenes cannot be longer and/or better than Indy's, or it's not an Indy movie anymore. Hence the overall lack of energy.

B) Relegate older Indy to a bookend-type role and show most of the action scenes in flashback, with a younger actor in the lead role.

That's it.

And that's why I for one have no desire to watch another Indy movie with Ford, unless he accepts said bookend role.

And yet, ironically, we get so many Raveners complaining about the lack of energy in Skulls, while at the same time clamoring for Ford to carry the whole Indy 5 on his own. :rolleyes:

You are only correct if it was indeed Harrison being older that held CS back, but I don't think that was the case. Without again mentioning the factors that held CS back, Harrison being older was not one of them.

I am not clamouring for Harrison to reprise the role, but I am not against it either. If the script is well written and the movie is produced and directed, etc, etc, well enough the movie will be good. I would be happy with a new younger actor taking on the role and set in earlier years, or with Harrison in another and most likely final (for him) adventure.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Z dweller said:
But surely this is inevitable for any movie with an older Indy, set in the 50s or 60s.

I absolutely disagree with this. The inertness of Crystal Skull had zilch to do with Ford.
 

Z dweller

Well-known member
Udvarnoky said:
I absolutely disagree with this. The inertness of Crystal Skull had zilch to do with Ford.
I wasn't talking about Ford's performance, though: i was referring specifically to the age of the character.

In KOTC the beards juuust got away with it, throwing in a few jokes about Indy's age, and in all fairness Ford in his mid 60s could still pull it off physically.

But that only works one time. The same jokes in Indy 5 would be repetitive and not funny anymore.

You can only stretch credibility up to a point, and I think we reached it with KOTCS.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Z dweller said:
I wasn't talking about Ford's performance, though: i was referring specifically to the age of the character.

And I'm asserting that the age of the character had no bearing on the limpness of the action scenes.
 

Z dweller

Well-known member
Udvarnoky said:
And I'm asserting that the age of the character had no bearing on the limpness of the action scenes.
Ok, so that's your view on KOTCS.

But how about Indy 5?
Do you believe that a 60+ Indy, played by Ford in his mid 70s, would still be credible in action scenes in general, and fights in particular?
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Z dweller said:
I wasn't talking about Ford's performance, though: i was referring specifically to the age of the character.

In KOTC the beards juuust got away with it, throwing in a few jokes about Indy's age, and in all fairness Ford in his mid 60s could still pull it off physically.

But that only works one time. The same jokes in Indy 5 would be repetitive and not funny anymore.

You can only stretch credibility up to a point, and I think we reached it with KOTCS.

There's plenty of action stars of a similar age who are still doing action films with lots of energy - IE The Expendables. Indy 4's action could've been handled a lot differently. We don't need to see Indy acting like a 20 year old if played by Ford again - but it also doesn't need to be where he takes a backseat or where the action is lethargic. The problem is, the series was in the hands of a director who was an old man himself who had tired of violence. I would trust an Indy V with Harrison in the lead in a film helmed by a younger director, with George contributing only a story outline or acting as Executive Producer. Indy V can work with Harrison in the head, it just needs a fresher, younger director - one who is willing to make Indy dark, gritty, and dirty again. Who is at least willing to show Indy in a gunfight.
 
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