will the russians be as good as the nazis?

Vance

Vance

New member
Nurhachi1991 said:
so does that make it right?
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History is seldom, if ever, politically correct.

The biggest difference, historically, is that Mao and Stalin largely committed their atrocities to their own people, and the timing of both was telling.

Stalin's atrocities and purges were timed to a war-weary Europe (from the Great War), and weren't covered in the news much. Press information in Soviet Russia was sporadic and questionable. Plus, of course, there was the idea that the Soviets did it to themselves.

Mao would happen as part of the cold war, where fear of nuclear war kept conflicts 'contained' (in the worst possible sense). Again, like with Russia, there was also a belief that Mao was doing it to his own, and it was an internal issue. Note that when Mao's influence was reaching to Indochina, the UN did demand troops to deal with it... those conflicts were Korea (1950s) and Vietnam (1960s).
 
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crowmagnumman

New member
So are we gonna be able to root for the Russian soldiers to get chopped up or squished or blown up the same way we do with Nazis? It just seems like it will be different. But it will all depend on how they are portrayed.
 
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oki9Sedo

New member
They may not be as bad as Nazis, but they're still bad.

It'll be every bit as enjoyable watching them get blown up or run off cliffs or whatever ingenious deaths the masterminds can muster.
 
Zorg

Zorg

New member
Considering what we've seen about Spalko, seems like the Russians in the film are a pretty brutal bunch.

The Nazis in the previous film differ.. they're more comic book-style enemies. Even the pictures from the new film with Russian soldiers... more intimidating than Nazis, I think.
 
Agent Z

Agent Z

Active member
Nurhachi1991 said:
yeah i really guess its how there portrayed and Spalko looks like one mean son of a gun
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Just from my initial impression from what little crumbs we have been given, Spalko is already more intimidating and has a swagger/coolness factor higher than that of Belloq and, yes, the cartoon that was Mola Ram. Spielberg has said that Cate has made Irina his favorite villain of the series and Lucas refers to her as an "uber-villain".

In my book, the villain is as equally important as the hero. That's probably why Crusade barely registers with me, cause the villains were so weak and never made their presence felt. I hope the beards don't repeat that mistake here.
 
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NonStop

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mao zedong - communist - est. 70 million dead.
joseph stalin - communist - est. 50 million dead.
adolf hitler - fascist - 11.6 million dead.
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What?

Mao himself claimed a total of 700,000 killed during the years 1949?53.[20] However, because there was a policy to select "at least one landlord, and usually several, in virtually every village for public execution",[21] 1 million deaths seems to be an absolute minimum, and many authors agree on a figure of between 2 million and 5 million dead.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_zedong

Early researchers attempting to tally the number of people killed under Stalin's regime were forced to rely largely upon anecdotal evidence. Their estimates ranged from a low of 3 million to as high as 60 million.[54][55] When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 however, evidence from the Soviet archives finally became available. The archives record that about 800,000 prisoners were executed (for either political or criminal offences) under Stalin, while about 1.7 million died in the GULAG and some 389,000 perished during kulak forced resettlement ? a total of about 3 million victims.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin#Number_of_victims

I am quite left wing, so seeing Communists as the enemy doens't have quite the same kick as Nazis. Though Communists have committed atrocities, good old America isn't great by any standards either.

I'll wait and see how the film plays out.
 
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oki9Sedo

New member
I think there will be three types of Russians in the film.

1. Characters who are inherently misguided, ie. characters who so blindly believe in Communism and their country, that they are willing to kill and commit atrocities to achieve their goals, and do not consider this to be wrong, but just shrug it off as "unfortunate".

2. The same as above, only they deep, deep down know it is wrong but are in denial about it. Think Gary Oldman in Air Force One.

3. Characters who are just plain evil. Characters who only care about power and world dominance, and don't give a damn about anyone else.

I'm talking about the Russians with speaking roles, obviously. Most of them will just be random soldiers who end up getting killed in cool/grisly ways.
 
Vance

Vance

New member
Though Communists have committed atrocities, good old America isn't great by any standards either.
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Oh yeah, America's 'atrocities' are comparable to the Soviets, Mao, or Germany. And, of course, Britain has no black marks on its history at all.

Though, your own statement of "I'm quite left wing" so you show sympathy for the devil because they're supposedly left wing too, makes your entire argument a bit untenable, particularly since Hitler himself was pretty dang 'left-wing'.

The 1950's Russians were evil bastards. Communism was a populist excuse for their wrongdoings, pretty much like it is for petty dictators like Chavez today.
 
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donufro

New member
The Man said:
Russians are perfect 50's Indy fodder.
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Second that.

Let me throw something into this. When you watch movies about the Revolutionary War from the American perspective, don't you root against the British (i.e. The Patriot)? And now they're one of our biggest European allies.

My point is, it all depends on the context of the situation. As long as the movie makes the Russians evil enough, that's all that matters. Debating over dictators and their genocide body counts is irrelevant when it comes to the characters in the movie.
 
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SterankoII

New member
Nazis made great villains because they didn't have to do anything particuarly evil in the actual movie. We know they've already committed one of the most evil acts in real life! Indy could run over as much as Nazis during the truck chase and you didn't feel sorry for them!

Millions of people were killed under the regimes of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot but Communism still doesn't have as nasty aura surrounding as Nazism. Nazism with it's racism, anti-Semitism and talk about "Master race" and superiority is easy to hate. It's harder to fight Communism when supposedly under it "All people are equal". But in reality under this system, to paraphrase a famous line from George Orwell's Animal Farm "All people are equal, but some are more equal than others!" In this society, there are the "equalizers" who make sure everybody stays on the same level.

I think the James Bond novels of the 1950s by Ian Fleming made the Russians and their agency SMERSH really dispicable.
 
RaideroftheArk

RaideroftheArk

New member
Vance said:
Oh yeah, America's 'atrocities' are comparable to the Soviets, Mao, or Germany. And, of course, Britain has no black marks on its history at all.

Though, your own statement of "I'm quite left wing" so you show sympathy for the devil because they're supposedly left wing too, makes your entire argument a bit untenable, particularly since Hitler himself was pretty dang 'left-wing'.

The 1950's Russians were evil bastards. Communism was a populist excuse for their wrongdoings, pretty much like it is for petty dictators like Chavez today.
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Not to stir the pot, but... Look up the history of LSD and you might be surpised to see how close America is to the Soviets, Mao and the Nazi's.

Plus if you want to talk about genocide in America, look into Native American history...especially towords the end of the 19th century. (Just a small fraction of what came before)

And to answer the Question... The hatred for a Nazi will always be greater than a Communist... why? We know that the communists killed millions, but it was mostly "behind closed doors"... The Nazi's build entire camps dedicated to destroying a culture that will forever come to mind when we see that Swastika. I have no doubt that the communists will be ruthless in the movie, but I think our hatred runs deeper for Nazi's.
 
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The Man

The Man

Well-known member
When The Patriot came up in a previous post, it got me to think: wasn't the guy Gibson played supposed to be all-out bastardo in reality?
 
Vance

Vance

New member
RaideroftheArk said:
Plus if you want to talk about genocide in America, look into Native American history...especially towords the end of the 19th century. (Just a small fraction of what came before)
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Yeah, I LIVE in that territory. It doesn't compare in scale, or in accuracy either. While certainly not a proud moment for American history, to say that it even remotely resembles Hitler is both a lie, and also right out of Stalin's "Useful Idiots" playbook.

But, yes, Nazis are much more 'emblematic' of evil, as there's little to redeem them in history. Communism has a theory behind it which teaches equality and fairness for all - but has never, once, remotely lived up to that and has been a far worse blight on humanity.
 
eroc

eroc

New member
Nurhachi1991 said:
the commies were kind of soft i dont think they will be that good of bad guys
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Tell that to the 3 million victims killed under Stalin's regime. Plus the Russians played a huge part in defeating the Nazis. The "sleeping bear" don't play no games!


Nurhachi1991 said:
Vance said:
:rolleyes: Let me guess... history was NOT what you majored in?

Stalin's regime was just as bad as Hitler's. It's just that Stalin didn't actually start a war to conquer territory, commit genocide, and all that. He was just able to do it to territories he had 'appropriated' during WWII.[/QUOTE

Obviously its not your major either because stalin died in 1953 and this movie is in 1957 so there
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Right, but the commies in 1957 were still the same ones from 1953.
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