Cemetery Warriors

Dark Horse · Apr 26, 2009

Just a few questions...

Were there only two Cemetery warriors in Chauchilla cemetery?

Also, I could have sworn Indy shot one(with his gun) when I saw KotCS at the cinema. I know he doesn't in the DVD. Am I dreaming there?

wolfgang · Apr 26, 2009

Dark Horse said:
Just a few questions...

Were there only two Cemetery warriors in Chauchilla cemetery?

Also, I could have sworn Indy shot one(with his gun) when I saw KotCS at the cinema. I know he doesn't in the DVD. Am I dreaming there?

I believe you are dreaming. Or, who knows?? Maybe I was the unlucky one that didn't get to see that on theaters....but I didn't. But, it doesn't really bother me at all that he didn't shoot the warrior. What does bother me is that he didn't whip one. And YES, there are only two warriors.

Dark Horse · Apr 26, 2009

Grrrrr... I'm all confused now.

I just have this vivid memory of him reverse darting the first one, then shooting the other, and the connected memory of thinking "hey, that was vintage Indy", plus actually anticipating that scene on the DVD, and being pissed off that it was "changed".

And now that I think about it, it would make a ton more sense for Indy to kill both of them, rather than let one go. I mean, what was to stop the other Warrior from just popping his head out of another hole and blow darting Indy and Mutt to death five seconds later?

Lance Quazar · Apr 26, 2009

The scene as it is already makes Indy a murderer, so why put a second, needless, cold-blooded murder on his hands?

Dark Horse · Apr 26, 2009

Self defence isn't murder. Han didn't fire first.

Lance Quazar · Apr 26, 2009

It's murder when you break into someone's house, they try to stop you, and you kill them.

Indy invaded their cemetery - a sacred place, no less - was rooting through their stuff, stealing their stuff....they tried to stop him. And he murdered one of them.

Indy is now a murderer.

Analogy:

I break into a church to steal something. A priest intervenes, tries to stop me, even going so far as to physically attack me. I kill the priest.

Self-defense? Not on your life.

Dark Horse · Apr 26, 2009

Back up there a bit, chummy. They only just walked through the gates when they were attacked. Besides, they could have just popped out and shouted at Indy and Mutt to **** off. They didn't. They tried to kill them, no warning or anything.
Self defence stands.

If your analogy was valid, the priest would shoot at any foreigner who ventured into the church for the first time with out asking any questions.

wolfgang · Apr 26, 2009

I kind of agree with Dark Horse, but lets say Indy did broke into the warriors' cemetery, and is killing them just to get to his own goal? SO WHAT?! This is a movie! THats what I wanna see! Indy killing to get to his goal, like he did in the other three films far much more!

Lance Quazar · Apr 26, 2009

Dark Horse said:
Back up there a bit, chummy. They only just walked through the gates when they were attacked. Besides, they could have just popped out and shouted at Indy and Mutt to **** off. They didn't. They tried to kill them, no warning or anything.
Self defence stands.

If your analogy was valid, the priest would shoot at any foreigner who ventured into the church for the first time with out asking any questions.

I don't remember the scene too well, but here's what I do know -

It was night. They had shovels.

The Warriors job is to guard the cemetary.

If someone shows up in your house late at night and is poking around, legally you can shoot the sucker. No warning is required.

They were within their rights to protect their property and land from a criminal invader, which is what Indy was.

Dewy9 · Apr 26, 2009

Well, at least he was curteous enough to let them go first and he killed that one in a very bad-a manner. He didn't die like some Nazi punk, that's for sure.

Lance Quazar · Apr 26, 2009

wolfgang said:
I kind of agree with Dark Horse, but lets say Indy did broke into the warriors' cemetery, and is killing them just to get to his own goal? SO WHAT?! This is a movie! THats what I wanna see! Indy killing to get to his goal, like he did in the other three films far much more!

Heroes aren't murderers. Indy had never murdered before, he killed people who had threatened him or his friends and responded in kind. Or, at worst, killed people who had specific, evil goals (which the Warriors most definitely did not - they were simply protecting their sacred site from an invader.)

Indy didn't even kill Barranca in the beginning of Raiders even though that guy was clearly looking to kill Indy.

KOTCS made him a murderer.

wolfgang · Apr 26, 2009

Lance Quazar said:
Heroes aren't murderers. Indy had never murdered before, he killed people who had threatened him or his friends and responded in kind. Or, at worst, killed people who had specific, evil goals (which the Warriors most definitely did not - they were simply protecting their sacred site from an invader.)

Indy didn't even kill Barranca in the beginning of Raiders even though that guy was clearly looking to kill Indy.

KOTCS made him a murderer.

Well, you might be right. But then, when he killed the first warrior, wasn't Indy protecting Mutt, his threatened friend and soon-to-be son, from a threatening cemetery warrior that was about to throw a poisonous dart at him??

The other warrior wasn't going tot throw a dart at Mutt, so Indy let him live. I would've still prefer as an audience, knowing that this is just a movie, for Indy to have whipped him, or maybe even kill him. I don't believe in killing, and I don't believe guns should even exist. But they are sure fun in movies. I would not have mind. But I guess it depends on each person's point of view.

Dark Horse · Apr 27, 2009

Lance Quazar said:
I don't remember the scene too well, but here's what I do know -

It was night. They had shovels.

The Warriors job is to guard the cemetary.

If someone shows up in your house late at night and is poking around, legally you can shoot the sucker. No warning is required.

They were within their rights to protect their property and land from a criminal invader, which is what Indy was.

I think your missing the fact that Indy and Mutt weren't there to steal anything (remember Indy saying that when he opened the first mummy?). They wanted to return the skull to it's rightful owner(s), and save Ox whilst doing so.
Maybe if the Warriors knew that, they wouldn't of attacked. Point being - they could have sounded a warning. So again they were in the wrong. If anything, the Warriors are the thieves (by association) by letting stolen relics be hidden in their cemetery.
Now I know that would make a crappy scene, and I'm with Wolfgang - I'd much rather see the woman punching, nazi killing Indy whoop all thier asses.
(He would have murdered Belloq in the Cairo bar if the arabs didn't stop him as well, btw.)

Lance Quazar · Apr 27, 2009

^Indy's intentions may have been good, but how could the Warriors possibly know that? Even still, he was trespassing, no matter his goals.

If you find a prowler in your kitchen, do you assume he's there to leave you donuts? No, of course not. You call the cops or bash the sucker with a baseball bat (cricket bat in your case, Dark Horse.

) You don't wait around for explanations or give the guy a "fair warning."

Calling them "thieves by association" is also ridiculous. If you own a cemetery, is it your fault if there's a corpse interred there that was buried with a stolen watch? 'Course not.

As for Indy murdering Belloq - well, he MIGHT have, but he didn't. And that was under very unique circumstances, he was despondent over the death of Marion.

Had he done so, sure he would have been a murderer and his motives wouldn't have excused him. But he didn't.

Dark Horse · Apr 27, 2009

Well, over here, even if you touch a burglar you can get arrested for assault (dumb, I know).

Still, you missed my point about the Warriors actually stopping to ask what Indy was doing there. If they warned Indy first, they would have got an explanation. Hell, I'm sure Indy would have taken them into the tomb itself.
And comparing a house to a cemetery is a bit of a stretch as well. The Warriors don't own the Cemetery. They don't live there. It isn't locked, and visitors are allowed. The warning sign only said grave robbers will be shot. It didn't say no tresspassers or anything like that.
So for any of a hundred reasons, Indy could have been there, and not many of those reasons would deserve being attacked without warning.

Dayne · Apr 27, 2009

Agreed. To me there is absolutlely no difference to the people Indy killed in this movie compared to the first three. Basically, if Indy needs to kill, he needs to kill. Also, if there was any chance of the Soviets gaining control of the crystal skull's power, and therefore the enitre world, I don't think I would let two measley cemetary warriors jeopardise my goal of saving it.

Lance Quazar · Apr 27, 2009

Dark Horse said:
So for any of a hundred reasons, Indy could have been there, and not many of those reasons would deserve being attacked without warning.

No, there aren't. Trespassers (criminals) deserve to be attacked without warning. Particularly if they even already put up a friggin' warning sign!!!

Again, in any other situation (breaking into a house, breaking into a church, trespassing on a cemetery), you don't go asking permission before you fight off the invaders.

The Cemetery Warriors were the equivalent of security guards. They were doing their jobs. One got murdered for the trouble.

Lance Quazar · Apr 27, 2009

Dayne said:
Agreed. To me there is absolutlely no difference to the people Indy killed in this movie compared to the first three.

Because you're not thinking about it. It's entirely different. There isn't a single analogous situation in the other films.

The only possible parallel - if there were Hovitos actually inside the opening Raiders temple and Indy had killed one to gain entry, he would have been a murderer. Didn't happen.

Basically, if Indy needs to kill, he needs to kill. Also, if there was any chance of the Soviets gaining control of the crystal skull's power, and therefore the enitre world, I don't think I would let two measley cemetary warriors jeopardise my goal of saving it.

So by that rationale, Indy should have just shot Marion on sight to get the medallion from her.

Marion was stonewalling Indy and being uncooperative. But he had a job to do - save the world from the Nazis. Why let a measley woman jeopardize his goal?

Indy should have just murdered the butler in Castle Brunwald. After all, Indy had a job to do and an important goal, to say nothing of the fact that the butler was keeping him from saving his dad.

Indiscriminately killing people who stand in the way of your goal is the very definition of a villain. Belloq does it (or tries to), Lao Che does it. Mola Ram does it. Spalko, Donovan....etc. Just about every baddie in the series.

It is NOT the behavior of a hero.

Dark Horse · Apr 27, 2009

Lance Quazar said:
No, there aren't. Trespassers (criminals) deserve to be attacked without warning. Particularly if they even already put up a friggin' warning sign!!!

Again, in any other situation (breaking into a house, breaking into a church, trespassing on a cemetery), you don't go asking permission before you fight off the invaders.

The Cemetery Warriors were the equivalent of security guards. They were doing their jobs. One got murdered for the trouble.

Ahem. So, say a teenager accidentally throws his ball into a fenced in field. He climbs over to get the ball. Does a security guard just pop out of a hole and shoot him with no warning lol?

No. Not anywhere in the world, unless the security guard is a murderer himself.

Lance Quazar · Apr 27, 2009

^

1) Indy is not a minor

2) There was a warning sign

3) The cemetery was a sacred, religious site, not just a fenced-in field

But, in my lifetime, I've seen MANY "no trespassing" signs that said "violators would be shot on sight." (mostly in rural areas.)

Wisely, I decided not to tempt fate.

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