Indiana Jones movies' portrayal of Germans

monkey

Guest
Here is perhaps a controversial topic, but here goes:

Is any one else just a little bit uncomfortable sometimes with the cardboard cutout, stereotyped portrayal of the "Evil Nazis/Germans" in the Indiana Jones movies?

Sure, Nazis are easy, cartoon villains, but what about how this might make German people feel?

As an American of German descent, I sometimes find myself thinking about this.

Anyone else ever think about this?
 
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Indy's_main_man

Guest
the stereotypical nazi not only works but is also (in this case) sculpted by a jewish director so of course he doesn't care what these people are like.


if Spielberg had gone into letters being sent home to the families of soldiers Indy killed it may have slown the pace just a tad.

plus this really doesnt apply to germans in today's world unless of course they're related to someone who was a nazi (and even then consider how wrong it was to be a nazi in the first place)
 
The total death count of WW2 was more than 56 million. So almost 50 million non-Jews were killed. The Japanese were just as ruthless as the Nazis, especially to the Australians.
 
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Indy's_main_man

Guest
did indy INOLVE the japanese? if it did it would have prtrayed them badly because they'd be the bad guys.

Plus Spielberg may have a vandetta against german characters because of being jewish...the Japanese didn't kill his ancestors (not that I condone portrayals of bad germans because I am part german myself)

not to mention the movies didn't involve australia
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Indiana Jones was supposed to copy those 30's/40's adventure serials, but it also has a tad of those old WW II comics where the Allies were shown as ultimate heroes and the Germans as evil cowards, so I'd guess the way Indiana Jones movies represent the Germans is more like a reflection of different influences than that what moves in the moviemakers' mind.

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<small>(Kyybelwaagen. Tuttu Korkkareista. Himmel, sukeltakaa!)</small>
 
Indy's_main_man said:
did indy INOLVE the japanese? if it did it would have prtrayed them badly because they'd be the bad guys.

Plus Spielberg may have a vandetta against german characters because of being jewish...the Japanese didn't kill his ancestors (not that I condone portrayals of bad germans because I am part german myself)

not to mention the movies didn't involve australia

The Japanese would never be portrayed badly by Hollywood. Spielberg depicted the Japanese as nice people when he made 'Empire of the Sun.' The Japanese didn't kill Spielberg's ancestors, but they did murder members of the human race. You think he would be able to show some empathy. That the Nazis were used twice as Indy's rivals, rather than the Japanese, surprised even me.
 

Ayrun

Moderator Emeritus
What portrayal of Germans? :confused:

I've only seen Nazi's in these movies.
And Nazi's aren't the same as Germans.
Nazi's were stupid people brainwashed by an evil man named Hitler, a long, long time ago.
Germans are people that live in Germany.
I see a big distinction.

And I don't mind the stereotyped portrayal of the Nazi's in these films. It simply fits these films.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Re: Re: Indiana Jones movies' portrayal of Germans

Ayrun said:
What portrayal of Germans? :confused:
Actually, all of the German soldiers were <I>not</i> Nazis (even though it's become a common callname). To be practically honest (and exact), just the ones who were members of the Nazi party were Nazis. It just happened to be so, that in the totalitarian state the National socialistic insiginas turned to national insignias.

Repeat: all of the soldiers fighting in the German uniform were not Nazis. Just like all of the soldiers fighting in the uniform of the US Army these days are not Republicans. (Can think of a bunch of fellows in high positions who'd wish otherwise though...)
 
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Indy's_main_man

Guest
The nazis were perfect to be used in the jones film. Were they evil? no doubt. do they fit in the time period? yup.

when we think of dictators we think Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, etc. But usually Hitler first. He was a bad guy.

I think it's terrible that the japanese killed those people...but they don't really fit in the Indy stories.

Japanese portrayed badly by hollywood....hmm....there was a film called pearl harbor....they weren't exactly the nicest people there.

Spielberg wouldn't just attack the japanese by film for no apparent reason. He's not just going to say japanese people are bad because during this time period they really weren't.

Chattar, you seem to be a very intelligent person but I sense a strange anti japanese agenda. What happened was wrong but it's over now...they're not all bad. Come on...these are the people who brought you pandas and Nintendo.
 
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Indy's_main_man

Guest
lol oh well...personally I've enjoyed nintendo more then pandas in my life anyway
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Indy's_main_man said:
The nazis were perfect to be used in the jones film. Were they evil? no doubt. do they fit in the time period? yup.
I wouldn't exactly call the Nazis "evil", since world isn't that black and white. Sure thing, they were power-hungry fiends who wanted to turn the world into complete totalitarianism, but that just makes them a little... selfish.

Indy's_main_man said:
when we think of dictators we think Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, etc. But usually Hitler first. He was a bad guy.
Stalin wasn't any better, on the side of the Allies or not.

VP said:
Pandas live in China.
Hahahahahahahaha! Back to school, IMM!

<small>Okay, I'm being little cruel here... but sometimes the best way to put things in right order is a good rap at the fingers.</small>
 
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Indy's_main_man

Guest
Finn, burning Jews is evil. even if soldiers didn't take part they still condoned it and that's evil.

I never said Stalin wouldn't have made a good Indy villain...but Hitler has that funny little moustache...

I'm sure Japan has some pandas in it's zoos....take that :p
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Indy's_main_man said:
Finn, burning Jews is evil. even if soldiers didn't take part they still condoned it and that's evil.
Condoned? Yeah, those who did know about it were evil, I guess... but it's a proven fact that <i>every</i> German didn't know that their countrymen burnt Jews... and I think that even majority of those who condoned did it only because they didn't want to end up in a gas chamber themselves. That's not evil... it's coward-like, but self-defensive.

<small>Damn, I can't believe I'm spreading a good word about Nazis here... or well, not Nazis, but Germans during WW II.</small>

Indy's_main_man said:
I'm sure Japan has some pandas in it's zoos....take that :p
I agree. But you originally said that pandas <i>came</i> from Japan... something that is not true. <i>You</i> take that. :p
 

monkey

Guest
Some very interesting points in this discussion. I'm glad too that it hasn't gotten too passionate. I was just interested in others' opinions about something that I think about often.

Interesting points about the Japanese.

First of all, I think that 1930's era Japanese militants would make a very logical Indiana Jones villain. But you have to pause, because if you used the same style of portrayal that was used with the Nazis in LC and Raiders, then you might run a risk of being accused of 'racism'. Perhaps this may have factored into why the Japanese have never been used in any of the Indy films.

(Note that they were used in one of the Max McCoy books "Secret of the Sphinx").

In fact, even the portrayal of the Indian people in TOD drew a lot of criticism. That may have affected decisions about the third movie.

It is true that the Nazis make the ideal cartoon villains, and there is a lot of the old 'comic book' style there (anybody see Hellboy?). I just hope that people don't get all of their history from the movies; and take the time to read about what really happened in World War Two.
 
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Indy's_main_man

Guest
Most of Germany knew very well what was going on. They let it happen.

After the war soldiers said they shoved people into ovens because they were told to....not a good excuse.

If someone arose in america, gained a following, and started to slaughter innocent people because their hair wasn't blonde I think people would be angry.

Now my great grandfather was part of an underground who helped Jews escape certain death. So I know that there were some people trying to do the right thing. However the Majority sat back and pretended that everything was peachy-keen.

One should always strive to do the right thing... not sit still and be quiet because it might make some dope with a speed addiction mad.

as for German soldiers being portrayed more realistically one of my favorite WW2 movies comes to mind: "Jakob the liar". Yeah...it has Robin Williams in it but I think he's underraated as a serious actor. One scene that sticks out for me is a soldier telling Jakob he may last a month in the camps and how "ever man lives to see the next day". It really makes you feel the soldiers were human too- felt compassion...yet were put in a position where they couldn't do anything but watch.

While that may have been a hard position to be in most of them still made the wrong choice.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Yeah, it was wrong... but still wrong in an understandable way. If you really think about people in that situation. You can't compare the ongoings in Nazi Germany to the modern day United States, because there is a big difference, called public opinion. That was completely muffed in WW II-era Germany.

You can't blame people just watching by and keeping their mouth shut if they wanted to safe their own skin and not get involved in a fight that was practically against windmills. Imagine yourself in that situation. Of course, it's easy to say you would have not been stupid enough to jump on a soap box in the middle of a busy street and started calling people to join the Anti-Holocaust movement, because we know all well that would have resulted in the authorities dragging you away... somewhere you would never be found again. And that's certainly going to encourage people on scene to follow your example.

Okay, you mentioned your great-grandfather who was sort of a resitance fighter, and I guess if you'd lived on that era, you'd become one as well. But was that really easy for everyday Joe... err... Johann Citizen? Nope, if you didn't have the necessary contacts to either the authorities or other resistance, there was not much to do. Sure thing, you could have checked out people and sought out for a contact to inform that you might be able to help their cause... but that held risks as well. What if your presumed resistance contact is actually a snitch? He tells you his friends we'll come and see you at midnight, and sure thing, your door will be knocked at given time, but the knocker just happens not to be the fighters of the noble cause, but Gestapo.

Be reasonable, people. There are heroes in this world, true, but there are lot more of those who just don't want any kind of hassle due to their own safety. And since it's human, one really can't call it the ultimate wrong.

Summa summarum: the people of Germany wasn't evil... neither were they supporting the evil-doers. They were slaves of the situation, and shouldn't be condemned due the things just a small minority of them was being responsible of.

And something one should definitely do is to study the actual history... not make up opinions by what the silver screen tells us... or by comparing the circumstances there to those in which you happen to live in.
 
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Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
I recently read a book by John Steinbeck, The Moon Is Down. In the book, there are some characters who invade a small town, clearly modeled after the Nazi invasion of Scandinavia (doesn't really matter where in particular, because it's an allegory, and never explicitely refers to the Nazis or the location of the story). In the story, the invaders are portrayed rather sympathetically. They miss their families, they don't like being at war, one of them loves the British, another dreams of building a bridge for his toy train, one writes poetry to one of the village women...we understand these men, and we understand that they don't really like what they're doing. They were only following orders.

Even with this sympathetic portrayal, this book was wildly popular with the Allied Nations, and banned in Italy and Germany because it was also a tale of resistance. With, I note again, sympathetic Nazis.

As for Indiana Jones. Except for Elsa, Belloq, and Donovan (who, I will note, are Austrian, French, and American - not a single one of them truly devoted to the cause, it would seem, but to self-interest), all of the Nazis are rather cartoonish, especially Vogel and Toht. The possible exception is Dietrich, who is portrayed as an ideological weakling worried about a Jewish ritual - this, of course, is in it's own way, a likewise cartoonish portrayal. The butler is a traditional cariacture of the arrogant servant. The individual soldiers are simple goons. As for the German citizens in certain segments of Last Crusade, they all seem to be people of means - I would peg them as limitedly affected by the Depression and willing to wait out the storm until something affects them. The heartless nobility - another cariacture.

Then we have the others - the poverty-stricken Indian villagers, the bug-eating Indian merchants, the Satanic child-enslaving Indian cult, the gleefully murderous Chinese gangsters, the clamoring, grade-concerned students, the dreamy, sex-obsessed coeds, the rickshaw-pulling/riding Chinese citizens, the shady American bureacrats, the punchy sailors, the Wild West bandits, the well-dressed American black market dealer, the American partygoers, the idle Italian diners, the senile librarian, the cute Arab children watching a monkey, the drunk bargoers, the shifty Hispanics, the nearly-naked natives, the hard-working mass of submissive Arabs, the sword-wielding, crooked-toothed Arabs, the submissive, sex-alluding black sailors, the duplicitous prime minister, the laughing shaman, the frightened starlet, the old flame, the Anglophile Arab, the baseball cap wearing American concerned with backbone, the Americophile cute Chinese kid, the estranged father, the British mentor, the drunk Australian, the slightly prissy British colonial, the loyal-to-death Chinese man who refers to the Great Unknown - have I forgotten anybody? Ah, yes, the greatest cariacture of all - the devil with the little mustache!
 
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westford

Member
Indy's_main_man said:
After the war soldiers said they shoved people into ovens because they were told to....not a good excuse.
I know it's not in the same league as such, but look at what's been happening at Abu Ghraib - soldiers saying they were told to mistreat prisoners, etc. If they'd turned round and said no, what would have happened to them?

Yes, some people do blindly follow orders, but those orders come from somewhere higher up... It's all very well saying everyone should do the right thing, but if that were to put you or your family in danger, would you still do it? I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of people wouldn't (or couldn't).
 
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