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View Poll Results: What's your favorite fight scene?
Flying Wing (German Mechanic) 33 51.56%
Rock Crusher (Thugee) 9 14.06%
Tank Fight (Vogel) 15 23.44%
Big Damn Ants (Dovchenko) 7 10.94%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-23-2010, 02:44 PM   #51
Stoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
...these Nazi soldiers (who also happen to be German) are helping him attain his ambition. These movies (RotLA and TLC) are not about Indy vs. Germans. They're about Indy vs. Nazis. There is a distinction...
The 'distinction' is: the soldiers are not Nazis. This is probably the largest misconception about "Raiders" (and WW2 history in general). The only unquestionable, bona-fide Nazi in "Raiders" is Toht because we see his party pin.

Pellman is right in what he says. Again, Walton, you don't know what you're talking about.

On Topic: Favourite fight? German mechanic!
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:10 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Stoo
The 'distinction' is: the soldiers are not Nazis. This is probably the largest misconception about "Raiders" (and WW2 history in general). The only unquestionable, bona-fide Nazi in "Raiders" is Toht because we see his party pin.

This is one of my pet bugbears, as you'll know (my point in this thread dating back to November last year!) It's a common misconception.

The non-Nazi status of Dietrich's men is a factor that gives Raiders more depth: there are the normal German soldiers (who may or may not be sympathetic to the Party); Dietrich who has orders direct from the Fuehrer; Toht who is a Party member; Belloq, who has no allegiance to anyone but himself. Amongst all these there's Indy who's on a mission of supreme importance, where murder becomes an acceptable means to preventing Hitler gaining the Ark, and the kudos it would add to his power.

As explained in other threads, I see Indy as more the anti-hero type, than the traditional hero. An anti-hero has greater freedom of action. He has a reckless ambition. Therefore, it's as much about preventing Hitler gaining the Ark as it is about claiming the prize for himself, or at least before Belloq can.

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Originally Posted by Stoo
On Topic: Favourite fight? German mechanic!

It's the fight that has everything: from real danger to humour to dirty fighting to an assist via propeller!
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:00 PM   #53
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in my opinion the best fight scene is the rock crusher fight
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:04 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
The only unquestionable, bona-fide Nazi in "Raiders" is Toht because we see his party pin.

Looks like he's wearing the Gold Party Badge...the one issued to party members with an active, uninterrupted membership whose registered number is under 100,000, by decree of Adolf Hitler in Oct of 1933. So Toht has been a member of the party for a while. He's elite among Nazis...you are correct, but Dietrich's remarks throughout the film mark him as a Nazi as well, never mind that's he's wearing a Parteiadler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
The 'distinction' is: the soldiers are not Nazis. This is probably the largest misconception about "Raiders" (and WW2 history in general).

The rest of these Germans were probably not be registered Nazis, true, but that has nothing to do with their ideological beliefs. In the 1930s, political involvement was prohibited by the Wehrmacht. And if a Nazi is not wearing a Gold Party Badge, all that means is their registration number is over 100,000. Regardless, their allegiance to bona-fide Nazi agents is enough to justify Indy's actions against them.

The badge was eventually used to coerce membership into the NSDAP.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:23 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
but Dietrich's remarks throughout the film mark him as a Nazi as well, never mind that's he's wearing a Parteiadler.

The Parteiadler was made the official eagle for all institutions, including the Wehrmacht. It was simply part of the uniform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
The rest of these Germans were probably not be registered Nazis, true, but that has nothing to do with their ideological beliefs.

Do we know what each soldier believes in? I suspect that if Dietrich's unit were real, then the soldiers wouldn't even know what their real mission in Egypt was. In a sense they were pawns who stood in the way of Indy's own mission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
In the 1930s, political involvement was prohibited by the Wehrmacht.

Yes, the Wehrmacht High Command forbade membership of the NSDAP, and this was only overturned by Hitler after the 20 July 1944 Stauffenberg bomb. So, technically neither Dietrich nor his men can be registered Nazis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
And if a Nazi is not wearing a Gold Party Badge, all that means is their registration number is over 100,000. Regardless, their allegiance to bona-fide Nazi agents is enough to justify Indy's actions against them.

The badge was eventually used to coerce membership into the NSDAP.

I don't understand the significance of the emphasis on just the Golden Party badge. There were many different badges produced. None of Dietrich's men should technically have been able to wear one, since they weren't permitted to be involved politically.

It signifies that Toht was among the first 100,000, who were members before Hitler came to power in 1933. Toht's laughter when the Ark is opened and apparently nothing is inside, is another example of the questionable allegiances within ROTLA.

The occupation of the German Mechanic has also been debated here - whether or not he was just a Feldgendarme doing his duty in preventing Indy getting to the aircraft.

It all adds up to a situation with an interesting dynamic with regards to Indy's battles throughout the film.

Indy has a clear purpose, and he isn't afraid to do whatever it takes to accomplish it.
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Old 06-24-2010, 02:32 PM   #56
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I know I voted for the Tank fight, but after thinking about it some more, I'm more partial to the Giant Thuggee fight. It's the one I acted out the most when I was a kid on the couch (the end of the couch was of course the rock crusher).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
It's the fight that has everything: from real danger to humour to dirty fighting to an assist via propeller!
I'd say they all have that (except for the Ants! fight, not as much dirty fighting as the previous 3) just insert how the death of the villain comes, that's all.
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Old 06-24-2010, 03:04 PM   #57
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I would have to say the "Flying Wing" scene is the best. The tank and rock crusher are tied for second.

Good point made about the German soldiers in Raiders all being Wehermarcht, except for Toht (although Dietrich seems very sympathetic to the Nazi ideology). Interestingly enough most of the Germans in TLC are SS. I believe the guy Indy steals the uniform at the book burning rally was Wehmarcht though.
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Old 06-24-2010, 03:21 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael
I'd say they all have that (except for the Ants! fight, not as much dirty fighting as the previous 3) just insert how the death of the villain comes, that's all.

They saved the "dirty" move for the end, when Indy pretends to crawl towards his hat and goes for a great big dirty log. That was very a very satisfying moment!

While Dovchenko doesn't pull any dirty tricks or use any weapons, he doesn't exactly play by the Marquis de Queensbury rules himself. Kicking Indy on the ground, pulling him up by his ear and hair etc
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Old 06-25-2010, 01:09 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
The Parteiadler was made the official eagle for all institutions, including the Wehrmacht. It was simply part of the uniform.

It represents the Nazi party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Do we know what each soldier believes in? I suspect that if Dietrich's unit were real, then the soldiers wouldn't even know what their real mission in Egypt was. In a sense they were pawns who stood in the way of Indy's own mission.

None of us definitively knows each soldier's beliefs either way. But we do not need to. Indy doesn't. They are associated with the Nazi party (and its agenda to bring the Ark to Hitler), and knowing that is enough for him.

And we as an audience have to assume that the soldiers are intelligent and competent men who knowingly aligned themselves with the Nazi party. To me, they seemed to be a threat to Indy, but if you're suggesting they were ignorant of what they were getting involved in, well that makes Indy seem less of a hero and more a bully picking on a bunch of dummies.

If they joined the military but didn't believe in Nazi ideals, they'd have stayed out of the way. Conscientious objectors always end up at the back of the line pulling kitchen duty. All the soldiers you didn't see Indy pound on...we can make that assumption about them.

Yeah, pawns...in Chess, pawns have an allegiance. And they happen to be powerful pieces, not just throwaway barriers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Yes, the Wehrmacht High Command forbade membership of the NSDAP, and this was only overturned by Hitler after the 20 July 1944 Stauffenberg bomb. So, technically neither Dietrich nor his men can be registered Nazis.

We agree, they're not registered. But that doesn't stop them from believing what registered members believe, in part if not in whole. Whether they're "bona-fide" members like Toht is irrelevant. I think that if those who didn't believe in Nazi ideals wouldn't have joined a military associated with the Nazi party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I don't understand the significance of the emphasis on just the Golden Party badge. There were many different badges produced. None of Dietrich's men should technically have been able to wear one, since they weren't permitted to be involved politically.

It signifies that Toht was among the first 100,000, who were members before Hitler came to power in 1933. Toht's laughter when the Ark is opened and apparently nothing is inside, is another example of the questionable allegiances within ROTLA.

The occupation of the German Mechanic has also been debated here - whether or not he was just a Feldgendarme doing his duty in preventing Indy getting to the aircraft.

It all adds up to a situation with an interesting dynamic with regards to Indy's battles throughout the film.

Indy has a clear purpose, and he isn't afraid to do whatever it takes to accomplish it.

The distinction is that the film is not saying "all Germans are evil." However, a German who is part of the military at that time likely believes as registered Nazi members do. Or at least he's likely to be classified as a Nazi by those around him; he is wearing the uniform. Seems Indy saw it that way. But perhaps you're suggesting Indy should have interviewed each one before engaging in combat.

Last edited by Walton : 06-25-2010 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 06-25-2010, 04:14 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
It represents the Nazi party.

So does every other official uniform of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
None of us definitively knows each soldier's beliefs either way. But we do not need to. Indy doesn't. They are associated with the Nazi party (and its agenda to bring the Ark to Hitler), and knowing that is enough for him.

And we as an audience have to assume that the soldiers are intelligent and competent men who knowingly aligned themselves with the Nazi party. To me, they seemed to be a threat to Indy, but if you're suggesting they were ignorant of what they were getting involved in, well that makes Indy seem less of a hero and more a bully picking on a bunch of dummies.

If they joined the military but didn't believe in Nazi ideals, they'd have stayed out of the way. Conscientious objectors always end up at the back of the line pulling kitchen duty. All the soldiers you didn't see Indy pound on...we can make that assumption about them.

So every German or Austrian soldier in 1936 is a Nazi?

Early 1930s Germany was in a state of chaos with massive inflation and poverty. Being part of the 100,000 man Reichswehr wasn't something a soldier would give up.

If they wanted to be a Nazi they would volunteer for the SS or SA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
Yeah, pawns...in Chess, pawns have an allegiance. And they happen to be powerful pieces, not just throwaway barriers.

They're also on the frontline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
We agree, they're not registered. But that doesn't stop them from believing what registered members believe, in part if not in whole. Whether they're "bona-fide" members like Toht is irrelevant. I think that if those who didn't believe in Nazi ideals wouldn't have joined a military associated with the Nazi party.

In that case there wouldn't be much employment available anywhere in the state.
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Old 06-30-2010, 02:32 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
It represents the Nazi party.
No, the swastika represents the party. (The eagle represents something else...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
None of us definitively knows each soldier's beliefs either way. But we do not need to. Indy doesn't. They are associated with the Nazi party (and its agenda to bring the Ark to Hitler), and knowing that is enough for him.
Right. We don't need to know their individual beliefs. They are the antagonists. They are the bad guys in the story and that is obvious but you are calling ALL OF THEM evil Nazis. (By the way, the Afrika Korps have a pretty stainless record and were never accused of any crimes.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
And we as an audience have to assume that the soldiers are intelligent and competent men who knowingly aligned themselves with the Nazi party. To me, they seemed to be a threat to Indy, but if you're suggesting they were ignorant of what they were getting involved in, well that makes Indy seem less of a hero and more a bully picking on a bunch of dummies.
Why would that lessen Indy's 'hero' status? Regardless of each soldiers' political ideals, they are the force he must fight against in order to get what he was hired for...and, yes, many Germans were ignorant of what they were getting involved in. Speaking of "dummies", your above statement fits the bill quite well!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
If they joined the military but didn't believe in Nazi ideals, they'd have stayed out of the way. Conscientious objectors always end up at the back of the line pulling kitchen duty. All the soldiers you didn't see Indy pound on...we can make that assumption about them.

We agree, they're not registered. But that doesn't stop them from believing what registered members believe, in part if not in whole. Whether they're "bona-fide" members like Toht is irrelevant. I think that if those who didn't believe in Nazi ideals wouldn't have joined a military associated with the Nazi party.
Political and military factions are not inextricably linked. An army (of any country) is a tool to be used by each passing government, whether the actions or just or not. They follow orders. The German army grew after Hitler was elected but there is such a thing as 'career soldiers' who chose army life as a profession and were part of it long before Adolf came to power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton
...a German who is part of the military at that time likely believes as registered Nazi members do.
You are so wrong that I don't even know where to begin...For example, it is well known that Rommel (who eventually commanded the Afrika Korps) did not hold to Hitler's ideals and disobeyed orders to shoot Jewish prisoners, etc. At the time of his death, one of his requests was to have NO political symbols at his funeral.

Anti-Nazi sentiment within the military was present from the very beginning of Hitler's reign. Why do you think so many attempts were made (BY MEN IN THE ARMY) to assassinate him?

---
On Topic: For 2nd place, it's either the fight against the Thug chief or the fight with the Sargeant during the truck chase in "Raiders".
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:47 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
No, the swastika represents the party. (The eagle represents something else...)
Right. We don't need to know their individual beliefs. They are the antagonists. They are the bad guys in the story and that is obvious but you are calling ALL OF THEM evil Nazis. (By the way, the Afrika Korps have a pretty stainless record and were never accused of any crimes.)
Why would that lessen Indy's 'hero' status? Regardless of each soldiers' political ideals, they are the force he must fight against in order to get what he was hired for...and, yes, many Germans were ignorant of what they were getting involved in. Speaking of "dummies", your above statement fits the bill quite well!
Political and military factions are not inextricably linked. An army (of any country) is a tool to be used by each passing government, whether the actions or just or not. They follow orders. The German army grew after Hitler was elected but there is such a thing as 'career soldiers' who chose army life as a profession and were part of it long before Adolf came to power.
You are so wrong that I don't even know where to begin...For example, it is well known that Rommel (who eventually commanded the Afrika Korps) did not hold to Hitler's ideals and disobeyed orders to shoot Jewish prisoners, etc. At the time of his death, one of his requests was to have NO political symbols at his funeral.

Anti-Nazi sentiment within the military was present from the very beginning of Hitler's reign. Why do you think so many attempts were made (BY MEN IN THE ARMY) to assassinate him?

---
On Topic: For 2nd place, it's either the fight against the Thug chief or the fight with the Sargeant during the truck chase in "Raiders".
You're very knowledgeable, Stoo! I wish I had the capacity to hold facts and details in my head.
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Old 07-01-2010, 09:45 PM   #63
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1.) Flying Wing
2.) Giant Thugee
3.) Big Damn Ants
4.) Vogel Tank

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Old 07-02-2010, 10:06 AM   #64
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Definately the tank fight. i liked the music that played on it. i easily saw the music from Star Wars! but, yeah, that is the same composer
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Old 07-02-2010, 02:17 PM   #65
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I have to got with the tank scene, the the Airplane wing.

The tank because of the suspence and there were so many exciting things going on at once it was one of my favorite scees. I also enjoyed the end when they all thought he was dead nad had gone down with the tank when he climbed up th side and was lookiung down behind them. One of my favorite Indy moments right there.
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Old 06-08-2011, 09:03 PM   #66
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im going with the Dovchenko fight. that was the best thing about KotCS. Dovchenko got his ass handed to him.
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Old 10-09-2011, 12:40 PM   #67
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This, which appeared on Sideshow Freaks, sums up the best fight!

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Old 10-09-2011, 01:00 PM   #68
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^ That is AWESOME!!!!!

Raiders has all the best stuff including it's fight scenes.
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Old 10-09-2011, 04:15 PM   #69
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Raiders german mechanic.
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Old 11-18-2011, 11:28 PM   #70
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i understand that the fight against the German mechanic was an epic battle and all, but that was a losing fight for Indy. if the mechanic had seen the propellers he'd have kicked Indy's ass big time. THATS why i really enjoyed the Dovchenko fight because that was the one ligit fight scene that Indy dominated in. i dunno i just think its awesome to see Indy being a badass instead of gettin his ass handed to him. agree or disagree, but what one thing is for sure about the Dovchenko fight: even though Indy was a lot older in that film he still knows how to land some good punches, y'know what i mean??
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Old 11-18-2011, 11:50 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy Scout 117
i understand that the fight against the German mechanic was an epic battle and all, but that was a losing fight for Indy. if the mechanic had seen the propellers he'd have kicked Indy's ass big time. THATS why i really enjoyed the Dovchenko fight because that was the one ligit fight scene that Indy dominated in. i dunno i just think its awesome to see Indy being a badass instead of gettin his ass handed to him. agree or disagree, but what one thing is for sure about the Dovchenko fight: even though Indy was a lot older in that film he still knows how to land some good punches, y'know what i mean??

Most of Indy's fights are as the underdog. The propeller saved him from the Mechanic; the rock crusher from the big Thuggee; his revolver from the Cairo swordsman; the rope bridge from the Thuggee, and so on.

The Dovchenko fight was to be no different. Indy was saved by a stick and a swarm of fire ants. From the perspective of the screenplay directions it went like this:

Quote:
KOTCS Final Shooting Script


Indy and Dovchenko are in a fistfight for the ages, and Indy’s getting his ass kicked.

...

Indy is now bleeding in his nose and mouth. Indy on his back barely turns around and starts to crawl towards his hat, he is about to pick it up but instead he picks up a large tree stick with his right hand. Indy turns quickly and hits Dov with the stick, and then punches him four times, Dovchenko lands flat on his back --

-- in the middle of the sea of ants. They immediately overcome him, going in his ears, his mouth, his nostrils -- and then start biting to make holes of their own.

Dovchenko’s body starts to move, horizontally along the ground, floating six inches above the jungle floor.

The Russian SCREAMS as the army ants carry him away to another dirt mound and drag him down into it, to devour him in peace.

That's what I like about Indy. He isn't the all-conquering and invulnerable hero, but more of an everyman imbued with more than his fair share of luck, backed up by his resourcefulness. He's not averse to resorting to devious methods or dirty fighting in order to survive.

You're right that Indy's age is a big factor: he shows he's still got the same power and determination that he had twenty years before. It's a rare moment in the film when he gets to break the shackles.
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Old 11-20-2011, 04:25 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Drifter
I have to go with the Tank fight.
I love how the whole piece is set up. Indy having to deal with saving his father on the treads of the tank while Vogel is slapping him around. I love it!

That and one of the most epic scenes in movie history, when Indy shoots 3 nazis with a single bullet and then looks with that expression the gun
Just awesome
Otherwise I love 2nd the mechanic fight, the .....
Oh damn I love them all
Can't let any one last.
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Old 11-21-2011, 04:09 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy Scout 117
i understand that the fight against the German mechanic was an epic battle and all, but that was a losing fight for Indy. if the mechanic had seen the propellers he'd have kicked Indy's ass big time. THATS why i really enjoyed the Dovchenko fight because that was the one ligit fight scene that Indy dominated in. i dunno i just think its awesome to see Indy being a badass instead of gettin his ass handed to him. agree or disagree, but what one thing is for sure about the Dovchenko fight: even though Indy was a lot older in that film he still knows how to land some good punches, y'know what i mean??

Certainly Dovchenko didn't dominate Indy nearly as much as the German mechanic did, but he still did dominate. Indy gets loads of punches in, but they do very little, whereas although Dovchenko gets very few punches in, but they slam Indy to the ground each time.
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Old 12-08-2011, 07:03 PM   #74
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The drama inside the tank with Marcus and Henry, the way Vogel fights so dirty, the way Indy hangs on just by his satchel (and then for his life on the cliff), all the music that accompanies it, just wonderful.
Didn't they both fight dirty?
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And really, does it get any better than Indy just smashing Vogel's face over and over again?
Yes, the latter's orgasmic scream as his tank drives over the edge of the cliff.
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Old 07-13-2012, 10:10 PM   #75
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I love all these fights very much, and they all have their best and weakest moments. I voted the German mechanic, simply because it is the one that Indy is least likely to win (It seems), but he beats all odds (Like always!) and the German guy is chopped up. Question: why didn't he use his gun?!
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