Is Indy an atheist (in Raiders)?

Montana Smith

Active member
Walton said:
Point is he's heroic by virtue of dumb luck...most of the time.

Yes. I just wrote in another thread that Indy could be 'winging it' a lot of the time. Making it up as he goes along, without a specific plan. Relying on luck - which is where I'm thinking his true faith lies.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Nurhachi1991 said:
" Any of you guys ever go to Sunday school?"



That should answer your question

I went.

When I was 14 I really began to question, and have been an atheist ever since.

Religion is one of those cultural things that can just happen to you because you grow up with it. My thoughts began with, "what are the chances that this precise religion is the correct one, just because I was born into it?" Then I began some serious reading into history, and nothing has since in the slightest changed my views. Rather, things have made my disbelief stronger.

Indy might have gone to Sunday School, but later events and study might have shaken his beliefs. We just don't know from the evidence provided by the films.
 

Walton

New member
Montana Smith said:
I went.

When I was 14 I really began to question, and have been an atheist ever since.

Religion is one of those cultural things that can just happen to you because you grow up with it. My thoughts began with, "what are the chances that this precise religion is the correct one, just because I was born into it?" Then I began some serious reading into history, and nothing has since in the slightest changed my views. Rather, things have made my disbelief stronger.

Indy might have gone to Sunday School, but later events and study might have shaken his beliefs. We just don't know from the evidence provided by the films.

Interesting. I went through a period where I decided not to believe in God. Is it different for you than for me? It seems you determined God does not exist. I concluded He does but went out of my way to ignore all things that would make me think about God.
 
Montana Smith said:
You said that before. I think you're in need of a reboot. Get C-3PO to jack into you for a new upload.
Um...nothing like advertising, though I'd be worried that 3PO might give me a bad case of "dust contamination".
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Um...nothing like advertising, though I'd be worried that 3PO might give me a bad case of "dust contamination".

I'd recommend a thorough oil bath just to be on the safe side...
 
Montana Smith said:
I'd recommend a thorough oil bath just to be on the safe side...
This is gettin Nasty!
You can relate to it with your contemporary mores and attempt to translate the film into your own comfort zone...
Really though, Indy was raised Christian and last we saw recieved a sacrament inside a Church.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
This is gettin Nasty!

Never nasty. ;)

Rocket Surgeon said:
You can relate to it with your contemporary mores and attempt to translate the film into your own comfort zone...
Really though, Indy was raised Christian and last we saw recieved a sacrament inside a Church.

Yes. Like I wrote before. There's no evidence that Indy was an atheist. You might as well ask whether Toht was into wearing ladies' underwear. :eek:
 
Montana Smith said:
Never nasty. ;)
Yes. Like I wrote before. There's no evidence that Indy was an atheist. You might as well ask whether Toht was into wearing ladies' underwear. :eek:

He did carry his own hangar, and comment on Marions choice of frock...
 

Walton

New member
So...how exactly does one determine God does not exist? That's the claim of atheism, right? ...God does not exist. I don't believe Indy ever made such a claim. (Robert Neville did...I Am Legend). At best, Indy was skeptical in ROTLA.

How does that work out with various religions? Whether they claim the same god (or gods) is irrelevant; the fact remains they claim some form of deity exists, so...what does that mean to the atheist?
 

Supernova

New member
Walton said:
So...how exactly does one determine God does not exist? That's the claim of atheism, right? ...God does not exist. I don't believe Indy ever made such a claim. (Robert Neville did...I Am Legend). At best, Indy was skeptical in ROTLA.

How does that work out with various religions? Whether they claim the same god (or gods) is irrelevant; the fact remains they claim some form of deity exists, so...what does that mean to the atheist?

Atheism doesn't claim anything, it is the default position, so indy doesn't need to "claim god doesn't exist" to be an atheist. It would be like indy saying out of nowhere "there isn't an invisible pink unicorn in my garden".
The burden of proof is on the ones claiming there is -something-.

But I don't think they "made" indy anything, indy is indy, nothing more, nothing less.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Walton said:
So...how exactly does one determine God does not exist? That's the claim of atheism, right? ...God does not exist. I don't believe Indy ever made such a claim. (Robert Neville did...I Am Legend). At best, Indy was skeptical in ROTLA.

How does that work out with various religions? Whether they claim the same god (or gods) is irrelevant; the fact remains they claim some form of deity exists, so...what does that mean to the atheist?

A study of history reveals that Christian beliefs stem from much earlier religions with were not monotheistic. Christianity has a habit of appropriating the past and making it it's own. When you study the causes of history (the human motivators), it is pretty clear that God or gods are a useful device to unite disparate tribes under a single banner. Given time even that unity breaks down into differing versions of the same belief system, giving rise to numerous versions of the 'true God'. And then religion becomes the easy cause and justification for war/plunder/empire building.

Rene Descartes, the rationalist thinker, famously stated, "I think, therefore I am." From this he elaborated that if he could imagine God then God must exist.

I am much more inclined to follow the empirical route: believe only that which can be proven.

God is an unnecessary complication for an already complicated world. An atheist is free of faith, and the laws which faith demands (which have their origins in human minds - such as an Amish law that says a man may not have a moustache, and the Bible must be read only in German. Or a Shariah law that says women must not show their faces in public). These are human laws, designed to control social patterns, not any route to a presumed heaven.

The question of Indy's faith or atheism is never addressed in the films, so the question is unanswerable. All we know is that Indy is a perpetual skeptic in all supernatural matters. I don't, however, see Indy bowing down to laws that would inhibit his free spirited nature. I like to see him as a liberated rogue. He has his own ethical oundaries, which are thankfully tighter than Belloq's.
 

Walton

New member
Supernova said:
Atheism doesn't claim anything, it is the default position...

Incorrect. Atheism is a conclusion. A determination someone made having studied, having weighed, having searched. It may be your default position, and the default position of a person or persons who have not searched, but it is of itself not a default...unless you're ten years old and know everything. No? Me neither.

To clarify, answer me this: would it be a correct statement (as an Atheist) to say, "I am an Atheist. I believe God does not exist."
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Walton said:
Incorrect. Atheism is a conclusion. A determination someone made having studied, having weighed, having searched. It may be your default position, and the default position of a person or persons who have not searched, but it is of itself not a default...unless you're ten years old and know everything. No? Me neither.

To clarify, answer me this: would it be a correct statement (as an Atheist) to say, "I am an Atheist. I believe God does not exist."

That would be a correct statement. It isn't simple skepticism, but a position arrived at through research and thought, and above all, logic.

Isn't agnosticism the skeptical view that covers the unknowable? - the view that would state that it is unknowable whether God exists or not.

Could there be such a thing as a human default position? Maybe in clones.
 

Walton

New member
Montana Smith said:
A study of history reveals that Christian beliefs stem from much earlier religions with were not monotheistic.

No, the study of Christianity shows that its roots are in Judaism, which has always been monotheistic. The two primarily differ once Jesus Christ enters the scene, Christianity espousing Christ the Messiah God promised in the Old Testament, the other waiting for some other Messiah. Same for Islam, roots in Judaism; they have Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc...but for them the buck stops on Mohamed, not Jesus.

The study of history is a subjective study, depending on whether you claim Darwin's theory or not.

Montana Smith said:
Christianity has a habit of appropriating the past and making it it's own. When you study the causes of history (the human motivators), it is pretty clear that God or gods are a useful device to unite disparate tribes under a single banner. Given time even that unity breaks down into differing versions of the same belief system, giving rise to numerous versions of the 'true God'. And then religion becomes the easy cause and justification for war/plunder/empire building.

People in the "non-religious" crowd never war, plunder or build empires? Framing religion as the catalyst is not solid footing. The word "religion" is fundamentally no different than the term "worldview"...comes from the Latin word for "ligament"...that which holds two parts together. AKA: A unified way of viewing the world in which you live. You have yours, I have mine. So, we're both religious, just not of the same religion.

Montana Smith said:
Rene Descartes, the rationalist thinker, famously stated, "I think, therefore I am." From this he elaborated that if he could imagine God then God must exist.

I am much more inclined to follow the empirical route: believe only that which can be proven.

God is an unnecessary complication for an already complicated world. An atheist is free of faith, and the laws which faith demands (which have their origins in human minds - such as an Amish law that says a man may not have a moustache, and the Bible must be read only in German. Or a Shariah law that says women must not show their faces in public). These are human laws, designed to control social patterns, not any route to a presumed heaven.

Famously? Was he famous at the time he stated it? :D

Free of faith, huh? Do you trust your beliefs? If you don't, then you are correct. If you do...

Montana Smith said:
The question of Indy's faith or atheism is never addressed in the films, so the question is unanswerable. All we know is that Indy is a perpetual skeptic in all supernatural matters. I don't, however, see Indy bowing down to laws that would inhibit his free spirited nature. I like to see him as a liberated rogue. He has his own ethical oundaries, which are thankfully tighter than Belloq's.

I agree, his position is never stated; the question is unanswerable. These laws you mention...which laws? It matters not how free-spirited Indy or anyone is, but everyone bows to something.

"Something made it inevitable."

Montana Smith said:
That would be a correct statement. It isn't simple skepticism, but a position arrived at through research and thought, and above all, logic.

Isn't agnosticism the skeptical view that covers the unknowable? - the view that would state that it is unknowable whether God exists or not.

Could there be such a thing as a human default position? Maybe in clones.


As far as I know, agnosticism covers the position of uncertainty, wherein one is undecided (at least socially, where I'm from, that is its usage). Whether from lack of research/information, no conclusion as been reached on the reality of God/gods, and even if one is convinced God/gods exist, one has not reached any conclusion as to the details of said God or gods.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Walton said:
No, the study of Christianity shows that its roots are in Judaism, which has always been monotheistic. The two primarily differ once Jesus Christ enters the scene, Christianity espousing Christ the Messiah God promised in the Old Testament, the other waiting for some other Messiah. Same for Islam, roots in Judaism; they have Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc...but for them the buck stops on Mohamed, not Jesus.

It's roots and much of it's symbolism go back much further, at least into ancient Egyptian polytheism.

Walton said:
The study of history is a subjective study, depending on whether you claim Darwin's theory or not.

Evolution has been debated at length elsewhere on these boards before.

Walton said:
People in the "non-religious" crowd never war, plunder or build empires? Framing religion as the catalyst is not solid footing. The word "religion" is fundamentally no different than the term "worldview"...comes from the Latin word for "ligament"...that which holds two parts together. AKA: A unified way of viewing the world in which you live. You have yours, I have mine. So, we're both religious, just not of the same religion.

The atheist isn't bound by any laws of faith.

Walton said:
Free of faith, huh? Do you trust your beliefs? If you don't, then you are correct. If you do...

"Faith" is an emotive and highly charged word. I have confidence that there is no point in believing in man-made laws that define a path to some imagined heaven or nirvana.

Walton said:
I agree, his position is never stated; the question is unanswerable. These laws you mention...which laws? It matters not how free-spirited Indy or anyone is, but everyone bows to something.

We don't need to bow before anything. We will all succumb to death, we may bend in the face of natural elements. We are free to pick and choose - just as Indy explained his actions as "making it up" as he went along.
 

Walton

New member
Montana Smith said:
It's roots and much of it's symbolism go back much further, at least into ancient Egyptian polytheism.

According to whom? Judaism encountered Egyptian polytheism along the way (per Joseph), but I can assure you the two are quite separate in their origins.

Montana Smith said:
Evolution has been debated at length elsewhere on these boards before.

There's no debate.

Montana Smith said:
The atheist isn't bound by any laws of faith.

I still don't understand that terminology. What is it? What does it mean?

Montana Smith said:
"Faith" is an emotive and highly charged word. I have confidence that there is no point in believing in man-made laws that define a path to some imagined heaven or nirvana.

Faith is simple trust, friend. As a word, it consists of 5 letters composing a single syllable. That's all. I agree with you: there is no point in believing in man-made laws to get to an imagined heaven. That's an utterly foolish pursuit.

Montana Smith said:
We don't need to bow before anything. We will all succumb to death, we may bend in the face of natural elements. We are free to pick and choose - just as Indy explained his actions as "making it up" as he went along.

Who's talking about needs? Simple fact. We bow, yield, succumb (as you say). Whether to death, vice, virtue, appetite, take your pick. We bow to our stomachs as many times a day as we eat.
 
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