Ancient aliens

Parrot

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Sorry, I got sucked in by Matt talking science via scientists though only proported by a new age mind, and repeated by everyone and their mother EXCEPT Hewlett-Packard. Though I know I'll never get an answer that can be referenced, it might be entertaining.

I don't blame you for getting involved in the discussion about crystal skulls. I'm the one who mentioned them first, and they are a pretty interesting part of the ancient alien lore.

But Matt seems to have gotten distracted and forgotten that he still has to get me some evidence for his claims about modern UFO's and the Bible.
 
Parrot said:
But Matt seems to have gotten distracted and forgotten that he still has to get me some evidence for his claims about modern UFO's and the Bible.
While you're waiting feel free to read the earlier posts in this thread. It might help pass the time waiting for Godot...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
While you're waiting feel free to read the earlier posts in this thread. It might help pass the time waiting for Godot...

And when you're done with Waiting for Godot, there's always that other Sam Becket from Quantum Leap, who would aptly utter "Oh, boy!" on a regular basis.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Montana Smith said:
If you discover the "truth" firsthand, and it presents itself with only one possibility, then you can hold that truth as faith. (Supposing you weren't under the influence of drink, drugs, or some psychological illness when you experienced it). Therefore, faith cannot be demonstrated to others unless they experience it for themselves. When we hear the assertion we cannot be sure of the motives for it's repetition.

I hate to belabor a point, and truthfully...(chuckle) we're probably saying the same thing in different terms. Faith isn't 'truth'. But faith is absolutely true.

We all use enormous amounts of faith in everything we do. Some people hold (by faith) that history and science is 'truth'. But as the proverb says "history is written by the victors"...The battle between Islam and Christianity is the battle of two 'truths', reasoned and argued (by faith) from two opposing parties.

One of the reasons LC is so much a favorite of mine is that there is a subtle investigation of what it means to understand the concept of 'faith'. Indy is a scientist. He admits it:
Indiana Jones said:
Archaeology is the search for fact... not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall.
______________


But as the movie progresses, we find that Henry:
Henry Jones Sr. said:
May He who illuminated this, illuminate me
and his foil Donovan:
Donovan said:
It's time to ask yourself, what you believe
are the ones who challenge the dogma of the scientist and shed a little light on what 'faith' is.

Faith, ultimately, is not the 'truth'. We don't know what the Holy Grail did, or does, or where it is when the movie is over (or if Indy and Co. are immortal). But neither is science the 'truth' either. After all, a 2000 (est) year old Knight is alive and well in a cave.

The 'truth' in the end is that Henry's son was illuminated to the 'truth' that science doesn't necessarily have all the answers (the grail knight)...and that 'faith' (Donovan's drinking of the cup) can be misguided too.

In a word, how 'transcendental'.....

and while I can relate all of this to L.C.; someone else will have to do a diatribe on how KotCS is 'transcental'...and tie it to the I.P. of 'aliens'....
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Pale Horse said:
I hate to belabor a point, and truthfully...(chuckle) we're probably saying the same thing in different terms. Faith isn't 'truth'. But faith is absolutely true.

We usually do see eye to eye, Pale Horse. If faith is "absolutely true", does that make it the highest form of dogma? It "absolutely" leaves no room for being proved wrong. Only a personal experience can make faith an absolute self-truth, and it would be impossible to impart this to another person (Recruiting for a particular faith is like a business tendering for a contract).

And by that token I could never hold by faith that history is "truth", while certain laws of science can be proved again and again with the same result, which would make them true.

To paraphrase what you wrote, history is the result of opposing forces, and is written by the victor. Any opposition is degraded to mere theory. If we cut a swathe through the probable mis-interpretations (both errors of judgment and intentional lies), we may reach the most probable facts about the past. Still not enough to put faith in their accuracy. Still not enough to call it truth, unless we were there to witness it.

Indy would make the perfect scientist. Not only does he test everything before acceptance, but he already knows that there's a chance that the answer may not be explained by known science. (Though, Indy's world has an occult element that's proven to the whole audience, unlike in our world where it's accepted only by a proportion of the people). I don't then see him as dogmatic, but fighting that mobile campaign in search of the facts.

As somebody else wrote in another thread, Henry Sr. had built his belief or faith in the existence of the Grail through years of research. It had become his obsession.

Elsa had a one track mind - a dogmatic faith that the Grail would be something beautiful and valuable, as that's how most myths portrayed it.

Donovan put too much faith in Elsa's choice.

Indy took a more reasoned approach, based upon the most probable cup of a "carpenter".

The knight was around 700 years old - you put years on the poor old guy!

:hat:
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Montana Smith said:
If faith is "absolutely true", does that make it the highest form of dogma?

I think ultimately, aside from the negative connotations of that word...faith and dogma are one and the same. In whatever field they are applied.

_____________
A/N: edit

...no, scratch that.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Pale Horse said:
I think ultimately, aside from the negative connotations of that word...faith and dogma are one and the same. In whatever field they are applied.

A/N: edit

...no, scratch that.

I was just about to post that I thought we were saying the same things in different terms, but that certain words come pre-loaded with their own emotional baggage.

But I checked to see if you had added anything else... and you had.
 
In the Old Testament, the Hebrew means essentially steadfastness, cf. Exodus 17:12, where it is used to describe the strengthening of Moses' hands; hence it comes to mean faithfulness, whether of God towards man (Deuteronomy 32:4) or of man towards God (Psalm 118:30). As signifying man's attitude towards God it means trustfulness or fiducia. It would, however, be illogical to conclude that the word cannot, and does not, mean belief or faith in the Old Testament for it is clear that we cannot put trust in a person's promises without previously assenting to or believing in that person's claim to such confidence. Hence even if it could be proved that the Hebrew does not in itself contain the notion of belief, it must necessarily presuppose it. But that the word does itself contain the notion of belief is clear from the use of the radical, which in the causative conjugation, or Hiph'il, means "to believe", e.g. Genesis 15:6, and Deuteronomy 1:32, in which latter passage the two meanings — viz. of believing and of trusting — are combined. That the noun itself often means faith or belief, is clear from Habakkuk 2:4, where the context demands it. The witness of the Septuagint is decisive; they render the verb by pisteuo, and the noun by pistis; and here again the two factors, faith and trust, are connoted by the same term. But that even in classical Greek pisteuo was used to signify believe, is clear from Euripides (Helene, 710), logois d'emoisi pisteuson tade, and that pistis could mean "belief" is shown by the same dramatist's theon d'ouketi pistis arage (Medea, 414; cf. Hipp., 1007).

In the New Testament the meanings "to believe" and "belief", for pisteon and pistis, come to the fore; in Christ's speech, pistis frequently means "trust", but also "belief" (cf. Matthew 8:10). In Acts it is used objectively of the tenets of the Christians, but is often to be rendered "belief" (cf. 17:31; 20:21; 26:8). In Romans 14:23, it has the meaning of "conscience" — "all that is not of faith is sin" — but the Apostle repeatedly uses it in the sense of "belief" (cf. Romans 4 and Galatians 3). How necessary it is to point this out will be evident to all who are familiar with modern theological literature; thus, when a writer in the "Hibbert Journal", Oct., 1907, says, "From one end of the Scripture to the other, faith is trust and only trust", it is hard to see how he would explain 1 Corinthians 13:13, and Hebrews 11:1.

The truth is that many theological writers of the present day are given to very loose thinking, and in nothing is this so evident as in their treatment of faith. In the article just referred to we read: "Trust in God is faith, faith is belief, belief may mean creed, but creed is not equivalent to trust in God." A similar vagueness was especially noticeable in the "Do we believe?" controversy—one correspondent says—"We unbelievers, if we have lost faith, cling more closely to hope and — the greatest of these — charity" ("Do we believe?", p. 180, ed. W. L. Courtney, 1905). Non-Catholic writers have repudiated all idea of faith as an intellectual assent, and consequently they fail to realize that faith must necessarily result in a body of dogmatic beliefs. "How and by what influence", asks Harnack, "was the living faith transformed into the creed to be believed, the surrender to Christ into a philosophical Christology?"
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
okay, but I'm postulating that an atheist lives by 'faith', too. If you take 'religion' away from the idea of faith, you have the capacity for one being to hold to ...

whatever 'truths' that reasoned being 'documents'.

To further try and 'splain...animals can not live by 'faith'.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Got to love it baby! "...when someone says it best..."

So the official Catholic line is that faith = dogma?

Romans 14:23: "all that is not of faith is sin".

That's the terrifying angle of faith: believe this or be damned. If you haven't discovered faith for yourself, there remains the danger of following blindly for fear of damnation.

When I wrote that faith was a dangerous commodity, it was this very concept that I was getting at. When an organized faith system becomes extreme, it's capable of finding volunteers to blow themselves up in crowded places.

I caution a healthy dose skepticism at both ends of the scale: from a study of the past to the willingness to take life for an ideal handed down, that cannot be fully proven.

Where we have to beware of false writers of history, we also have to beware of false writers of the present. Cause and motive is the key to attempting to pick out the facts from the lies. We have to challenge evidence just as we have to challenge the motives of those who preach suicide bombing. The moment we stop challenging is the moment we're risking a slippery slope into a self-delusion.

EDIT:

Pale Horse said:
okay, but I'm postulating that an atheist lives by 'faith', too. If you take 'religion' away from the idea of faith, you have the capacity for one being to hold to ...

whatever 'truths' that reasoned being 'documents'.

To further try and 'splain...animals can not live by 'faith'.

In the study of history I wouldn't hold truths too strongly, knowing that new evidence may overturn the things we came to take for granted. The study of history is never-ending, and all we can offer is our best interpretration on the evidence we have at our disposal.

A document isn't truth, but another person's work. Or it may even be a fraudulent document made at a later date.

If you can call it faith, then I expect that the sun will rise tomorrow. It's a constant fact. We can say we have faith in scientific laws, but "faith" is still such an emotive word. "Facts", as spoken by Indy, sound much more down to earth.

Pale Horse said:
To further try and 'splain...animals can not live by 'faith'.

If we're taking faith to mean holding to truths, then animals might be closer to it than most humans. Their instinct is to survive each day and ultimately reproduce. To that end some are even monogamously "faithful". Some undergo tests of fitness to gain the right to breed. The weaker loser will normally back off. These are simple laws of nature, unhinndered by human concerns. Animals might be said to be very dogmatic by instinct.
 
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Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Montana Smith said:
If we're taking faith to mean holding to truths, then animals might be closer to it than most humans...

Boy, doesn't that make that Romans passage even more ... foreboding. :p
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Pale Horse said:
Boy, doesn't that make that Romans passage even more ... foreboding. :p

"...all that is not dogmatic is sin."

That is very foreboding! Especially if we saw society functioning on the brutal animal level of survival of the fittest.

It conjures up images of Orwell's 1984, where free-thinking is a crime, and they know your worst fears... :eek:

I think we might have difted of topic, Mr. Horse.

I thought if I mentioned "history" every now and then, then no one will notice! :p
 

Gabeed

New member
Montana Smith said:
Romans 14:23: "all that is not of faith is sin".

. . . you've taken that out of context. There's a lot of weird and scary crap in the Bible, but I'm fairly sure this particular passage isn't supposed to be taken as literally as you have taken it. I mean, it's not even the full verse.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Faith, schmaith. This thread is supposed to be about ancient aliens and catering towards Matt deMille's unfounded statements. Taking it off topic will only result in upsetting him and we don't want anymore broken lightbulbs, computer screens or candy dishes!:eek:

For d'uhMille's sake, please try to stay on track.:whip:
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Gabeed said:
. . . I mean, it's not even the full verse.

the whole context of which...(according to the Message version of the Word.)
seems rather approprate here.

23Cultivate your own relationship with God, but don't impose it on others. You're fortunate if your behavior and your belief are coherent. But if you're not sure, if you notice that you are acting in ways inconsistent with what you believe?some days trying to impose your opinions on others, other days just trying to please them?then you know that you're out of line. If the way you live isn't consistent with what you believe, then it's wrong.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Gabeed said:
. . . you've taken that out of context. There's a lot of weird and scary crap in the Bible, but I'm fairly sure this particular passage isn't supposed to be taken as literally as you have taken it. I mean, it's not even the full verse.

I realize that. I was taking it from Rocket's quotes from that Catholic Encyclopedia. Out of context it is scary, and that's how some faith is constructed - dangerously so. Your caution proves the point I was trying to make, that we should challenge everything.

:hat:


Stoo said:
Faith, schmaith. This thread is supposed to be about ancient aliens and catering towards Matt deMille's unfounded statements. Taking it off topic will only result in upsetting him and we don't want anymore broken lightbulbs, computer screens or candy dishes!

For d'uhMille's sake, please try to stay on track.

:D

Just trying to get to the root cause of the issue that began 49 pages ago, and here:

Matt deMille said:
Trust me, ancient aliens is a valid theory, and during the 21st century it will prove to be THE most important aspect of our reality.

Now, since this *is* an Indiana Jones site, I should say that I enjoyed "Raiders" far better than "Kingdom", despite my knowledge of the alien reality as well as seeing the Bible and all religious faith as utter trash. Raiders was simply the better made movie.

Now, where will this debate go next . . . ?

http://raven.theraider.net/showpost.php?p=476587&postcount=169

:whip:


23Cultivate your own relationship with God, but don't impose it on others. You're fortunate if your behavior and your belief are coherent. But if you're not sure, if you notice that you are acting in ways inconsistent with what you believe—some days trying to impose your opinions on others, other days just trying to please them—then you know that you're out of line. If the way you live isn't consistent with what you believe, then it's wrong.

What is this from, Pale Horse? It all makes perfect sense.


New International Version (©1984)
But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

There are lots more translations here:

http://bible.cc/romans/14-23.htm

Yet, it's easy to read these in differing ways, hence the number of denominations.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
faith must necessarily result in a body of dogmatic beliefs.


Rocket Surgeon said:
This applies to UFOs, Religion, Politics...

That's still scary.

Faith /absolute truth necessitates a body of indisputable beliefs.

Those dogmatic beliefs cannot be doubted.


That puts this thread in a nutshell. No matter how much evidence anyone presents with the most 'probable interpretation', it will be met with denial, as the belief is indisputable.

Well, at least we still have the journey to look forward to!
 
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