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Old 10-07-2008, 07:54 AM   #376
AtomicAge
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Originally Posted by Blade
Cheers...and that would have been a shame.

I agree. I like Raiders the way it is, but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate what they are doing in the other films and enjoy them just as much.

I saw Raiders when I was 16 and first getting very serious about film making. It was and is my favorite film of all time.

Two years later when Doom came out I must say that it was a let down for me because the style had changed so much. But over the years it has grown on me and I really love the film now.

Doug
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:04 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by AtomicAge
Again I disagree. Doom is actually a more faithful homage than Raiders, to the serials of the 30s and 40s that inspired Indy in the first place.

Doug

I'd agree with that.

Raiders has too deep a story and characters to be faithfully compared to the action serials of the 30s. It's certainly in the style of them, but it's a little too cerebral.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:05 AM   #378
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On the whole I think KOTCS is a good movie, I'd change some bits, I'd have liked them to have concentrated on plot/chracters a bit over some of the excessive scenes (waterfall drops), though I do appreciate the spirit of it. But a lot more could have been done with it I think. The monkey-scene is luckily very small, doesn't ruin the film, but taints a little an otherwise great jungle chase. I just can't imagine the likes of Elsa and Walter Donovan being in the same universe as that monkey swinging scene, even Indy, and he is in the movie. I think the scenes issue is how it is on screen, it just looks very childish and poorly done. Just Mutt swinging on a real vine (rope!) with a couple of monkeys swinging by his side at least would have made the scene look as if it fitted in better. Kind of like Chewie in Star Wars, the entire ting didn't change to obscure cartoony CGI in the middle of all the action.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:11 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by StoneTriple
I'd agree with that.

Raiders has too deep a story and characters to be faithfully compared to the action serials of the 30s. It's certainly in the style of them, but it's a little too cerebral.

Indeed Raiders is really more like an adventure film from the 1950s.
King Solomon's Mines (1950), The Naked Jungle (1954), Secret of the Incas (1954). I'll even go so far as to say it owes more to Casablanca (1942) than the serials.

Of course much of this has to do with Lawrence Kasdan's very witty script, and I don't think he gets enough credit. It is a shame that they couldn't get him to write another one.

Doug
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:14 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Benraianajones
On the whole I think KOTCS is a good movie, I'd change some bits, I'd have liked them to have concentrated on plot/chracters a bit over some of the excessive scenes (waterfall drops), though I do appreciate the spirit of it. But a lot more could have been done with it I think. The monkey-scene is luckily very small, doesn't ruin the film, but taints a little an otherwise great jungle chase. I just can't imagine the likes of Elsa and Walter Donovan being in the same universe as that monkey swinging scene, even Indy, and he is in the movie. I think the scenes issue is how it is on screen, it just looks very childish and poorly done. Just Mutt swinging on a real vine (rope!) with a couple of monkeys swinging by his side at least would have made the scene look as if it fitted in better. Kind of like Chewie in Star Wars, the entire ting didn't change to obscure cartoony CGI in the middle of all the action.

I think if I had been making the film I would have done things differently. One way to do the vine swinging, and take the taint off of it for the audience would have been to make it not work at first. Have Mutt grab a vine that is going the wrong direction and swing backwards into a tree. That would have been very in keeping with Indy action where the hero just isn't quite up to the task.

With the waterfalls I think I would have had our heroes spill out into the river and create some suspense there, while they try to get back into the Duck.

Doug
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:16 AM   #381
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@stonetriple
Changing the the subjekt? Me? *LOL*
I asked you soooo many times one question and you never answered! Remember?That was weak!

@AtomicAge
I hope you see the differnce between the fantastic Truck-Chase and this Jungle Chase. There is a stuntman under the Truck... it's real old school stunt. Great! What an amazing Scene...

"Skull": First of all: The Jungle looks not real. We all know there is a lot of CGI. Shia is standing in front of a blue screen for many shots. It is not possible... repeat NOT possible for a person to stand on two really fast cars moving through the rain forest. In some shots there is a stuntman. That's right - but with wires or somthing. NOBODY could do this stunt for real.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:19 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Sankara
@stonetriple
Changing the the subjekt? Me? *LOL*
I asked you soooo many times one question and you never answered! Remember?That was weak!

@AtomicAge
I hope you see the differnce between the fantastic Truck-Chase and this Jungle Chase. There is a stuntman under the Truck... it's real old school stunt. Great! What an amazing Scene...

"Skull": First of all: The Jungle looks not real. We all know there is a lot of CGI. Shia is standing in front of a blue screen for many shots. It is not possible... repeat NOT possible for a person to stand on two really fast cars moving through the rain forest. In some shots there is a stuntman. That's right - but with wires or somthing. NOBODY could do this stunt for real.

The stuntman had a safety harness, but he was really standing on those cars as they were moving. For a skilled stuntman with stilled stunt drivers at the wheels of the cars it is possible and has been done in other movies before. Footloose I believe was one.

Remember that this was a graded prepared road that was designed with these stunts in mind.

Doug
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:21 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by AtomicAge
I think if I had been making the film I would have done things differently. One way to do the vine swinging, and take the taint off of it for the audience would have been to make it not work at first. Have Mutt grab a vine that is going the wrong direction and swing backwards into a tree. That would have been very in keeping with Indy action where the hero just isn't quite up to the task.

With the waterfalls I think I would have had our heroes spill out into the river and create some suspense there, while they try to get back into the Duck.

Doug

Yes, or even just skip the swinging and simply have Irina smash through a small tree/bush of monkeys, in which some land in her jeep and attack her out of fear. I did think it was funny when that one ran over her chest and face and she leaned back.

I'd have had them fall down one waterfall, a not too large one, and then spill out and try and reach the land, have some tense-action after the somewhat comical tree cliff drop/initial waterfall drop. Then make it apparent the next waterfall means business and will kill. I said here before, it would hve been nice to see Marion get on land and hold her hand out to Indiana, and he grabs it as he gets to sure. It'd be a symbol of her saving his life in more ways than one.

Other things like wanting to see irina hold her head in pain as she senses they are approaching Akator, or Irina trying to find a weakness of Indy's through reading Marion's mind would also have been good. I liked the idea and story to KOTCS, but some things seem left out, and could easily have enchanced the story.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:23 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Benraianajones
Yes, or even just skip the swinging and simply have Irina smash through a small tree/bush of monkeys, in which some land in her jeep and attack her out of fear. I did think it was funny when that one ran over her chest and face and she leaned back.

I'd have had them fall down one waterfall, a not too large one, and then spill out and try and reach the land, have some tense-action after the somewhat comical tree cliff drop/initial waterfall drop. Then make it apparent the next waterfall means business and will kill. I said here before, it would hve been nice to see Marion get on land and hold her hand out to Indiana, and he grabs it as he gets to sure. It'd be a symbol of her saving his life in more ways than one.

Other things like wanting to see irina hold her head in pain as she senses they are approaching Akator, or Irina trying to find a weakness of Indy's through reading Marion's mind would also have been good. I liked the idea and story to KOTCS, but some things seem left out, and could easily have enchanced the story.


I agree its not the film that I would have made, however I surely feel that I got my ten dollars worth of entertainment.

Doug
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:26 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by AtomicAge
I agree its not the film that I would have made, however I surely feel that I got my ten dollars worth of entertainment.

Doug

I guess it also doesn't help when for years I've imagined an Indy 4 based on "Fate of Atlantis", how great that game is, and there isn't really any huge stunts in it either! It would have been a really eerie, action packed adventure, with interesting plot and character development. (But if they did make it I'd be annoyed it wasn't how I'd direct it!). Acually, some aspectsof Fate of Atlantis are a bit like KOTCS, the psychic factor and locating a lost city, aided by other wordly beings.

KOTCS, is a good film could have pushed itself a bit more to immerse me a bit more. But I did enjoy it, or I wouldn't have the dvd on order. I look forward to seeing it again.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:28 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by AtomicAge
I'll even go so far as to say it owes more to Casablanca (1942) than the serials.

At times it definitely has a Casablanca feel to it. Every time I watch Casablanca, I think of Raiders.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:32 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by StoneTriple
At times it definitely has a Casablanca feel to it. Every time I watch Casablanca, I think of Raiders.

Of subject but have you seen Casablanca on HD? If you haven't, treat yourself. I have never seen the movie look that good. An amazing disc.

Doug
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:45 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by AtomicAge
Of subject but have you seen Casablanca on HD? If you haven't, treat yourself. I have never seen the movie look that good. An amazing disc.

Doug

I haven't. I'll look into it alright.
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Old 10-12-2008, 03:05 PM   #389
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"Sensibility" is a pretty subjective concept.
But a weak script and an uninspired execution aren't that subjective, and are a material difference with the previous installments
Those opinions about the script and execution are also subjective.

There were a small number of things I wish KOTCS had done better but I could say the same thing about the previous films...especially applying the same brand of criticism used to prop up complaints about the new movie - - which is my biggest beef with alot of the carping. It feels invented out of whole cloth and in faux outrage to lazily continue the (also mostly wrongheadead) prequel-initiated Lucas hogpile.

The standards complainers apply to KOTCS also largely tear down the previous installments if applied in the same way. I think pretending otherwise is patently dishonest for convenience's sake.

Also, to clarify my use of the word sensibility I am talking about the sources and ideas that inform the existence of the character and his setting. The sources of inspiration that fuel where all of this stuff comes from is not meaningless nor can be accepted here and discarded there to fit tastes or isolated points of argument.
Thank you for your clarification of the word 'sensibility', I agree with you... Kotcs sources and ideas aren't that far from the ones in the other movies (tough I like judeochristian mithology better).

But that's not the problem with Kotcs... Same sources and same ideas in Darabont's script, and still, it works better for me there. Closer to the previous movies, specially Raiders. Smarter. Not so childish.
Subjective, I know. I never said my opinions about script and execution were objective. Is there something totally 'objective' if we are talking about movies?
But it's natural to try to develop a criterion to support our oppinions. I try to respect others criterion, and what I found out, in the end, is that we are all somehow agreeing... Kotcs isn't as good as Raiders, not even as TOD and LC. Some like it enough, some were disappointed.

For me, it isn't a good Indy movie, but it is a decent 2008's movie.
Count me between the disappointed.


About StarWars, I don't care about the prequel stuff. Maybe if they would have been good movies... Kotcs is still better than those. But I was never a big SW fan.
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