Indiana Jones films: racist?

Are the Indiana Jones Films Racist?

  • No

    Votes: 61 79.2%
  • Yes - all of them

    Votes: 4 5.2%
  • Raiders of the Lost Ark

    Votes: 2 2.6%
  • Temple of Doom

    Votes: 9 11.7%
  • Last Crusade

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

    Votes: 1 1.3%

  • Total voters
    77

Henry W Jones

New member
Vance said:
Seriously, I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove anymore than "I really want revenge for all the times I was picked on in high school". It's pathetic.

This should have been an interesting conversation about how racial views and stereotypes appeared both in Indiana Jones and the films from which they homaged. Instead it's become... this... a very shameful thread that's an embarassment to The Raven as well to fans of all pulps.

What are you spewing about? :confused: This is not a contest. No one can provide answers to why it is racist beyond what others think. You getting upset and posting this drivel is the actual embarrassment to the Raven. You sure like to lash out when a conversation does not go your way. Grow up Vance. I am not tryjng to win anything. I just would like an opinion with some sort of real proof of racism in the films. You have not provided any. And yes, this should have been an interesting topic but one side of it cannot hold its end of the conversation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JuniorJones said:
Your obstinacy is fun in the same way as crashing my head against a wall. However, I like that feeling of dizziness.
I gathered that from your posts here, though they make me laugh like The Raven's own AFV.

JuniorJones said:
Can I ask you this.
Please...

JuniorJones said:
What, in your view, is racism?
I began the thread with the definition in order to establish just that. There is a consideration with regard to dictionaries however.

There are different types, and for the purpose of this conversation I think its important to point out two of them: prescriptive and descriptive.

Prescriptive dictionaries focus on language according to rules, and descriptive dictionaries focus on language use.

My children will, for example, look up "slang" finding entries like "ain't," "conversate" or "irregardless" and scream: HA! it's a word! Then I have to clarify that it's a nonstandard word, that comprehensive prescriptive dictionaries include nonstandard words, dialect, colloquialisms, and jargon...that it's not enough that they're simply listed. You have to look further for their qualifications...these prescriptive dictionaries make stronger statements against jargon (hybrid language) than, for exampe, descriptive dictionaries.

While slang and colloquialisms are fun, making things lively and interesting, in matters like discussing racism, they compound an already thorny subject.

Additionally, "I ain't gonna conversate with Vance irregardless of his egocentric and bossy stance." might be fun to write/read and puzzle over, it doesn't further any understanding besides obstinacy, (I'll leave it to you to guess whose).

Racism is a tricky concept as it is, which is why I'm striving to confine it to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

There are endless spirals, tangents to explore and get lost in...but the single thing which provides focus and the common ground we all (pardon me...most of us) share is Indiana Jones.

So everyone, (yourself included) please accept my apologies for reflecting. Its been a way to keep things from becomming unwieldy and despite the **** fight Vance laments, we can only have the conversation members here are willing to have. In Lance's case, his reliance on memories and feelings have exposed the deep flaws, arrogance and ultimately an illustration of the pervasive misconceptions people emotionally cling to in opposition to facts and proof.

If you feel justified that racism exists in the films, then what is there to fear from explaining and defending your view versus the views of others?

I can only imagine that those who voted that the films are racist cannot support thier views. That their emotions on the subject are ineffable.

Ultimately I think this is the hurdle: reason vs passion.

JuniorJones said:
I would like you to define it. Use a dictionary if you wish.
What I personally take away from the dictionary entry which begins this thread, my less clinical definition:

Racism is belittling someone by claiming a human trait is due to their heritage/ancestry/culture.

Vance said:
a very shameful thread that's an embarassment to The Raven as well to fans of all pulps.
I fear you're doing nothing but dragging it down...using it to instigate. Is it too much to ask you no longer pollute it?
 
Last edited:

Vance

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Racism is a tricky concept as it is, which is why I'm striving to confine it to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

As stated, is there racism in Temple of Doom? Clearly quite a few people (including a 1/5 of the respondants here) think so. Certainly we can agree that the movie was indelicate in dealing with the Hindu culture, at the very least.

Has it been adequately explained through this thread? Yes, more than once. Of course those explanations, and those that make them, are insulted, belittled, and ignored. Saying "You know what, that dinner scene was a little racist" is enough to brand you as "hated forever".

The fact is, the history of pulps is not pretty and was born out of a time were racism and ignorance, particularly of non-European cultures, was the order of the day. Of course, we can't forget that the pulps would willfully ignore sense and reason in the name of 'scary fun'. (The occult-based pulps, which Temple of Doom brazenly homages - to the point of ripping off entire movies - were notorious for this.)

As a pulp fan, it's often painful for me to see some ming-boggingly stupid assertations of various cultures and religions which wouldn't remotely fly in today's society. So when a movie that homages these pulps, such as Temple of Doom, comes along, it's far too easy to fall into the traps the genre established. Was it the 'most racist movie ever'? Of course not, but this doesn't whitewash the fact that parts of the movie were offensive. Simple as that.

I'm far more disturbed by the fact that some people would not only feel the need to whitewash this fact rather than accept it for what it is, but also feel the need to personaly demonize and harass those who disagree with them. In a rational sense, "it's just a movie" comes into play here. Why would anyone feel the need to personalize for themselves a 1980s adventure movie to the point they're willing to make personal enemies out of it?
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Vance said:
As stated, is there racism in Temple of Doom? Clearly quite a few people (including a 1/5 of the respondants here) think so. Certainly we can agree that the movie was indelicate in dealing with the Hindu culture, at the very least.

Has it been adequately explained through this thread? Yes, more than once. Of course those explanations, and those that make them, are insulted, belittled, and ignored. Saying "You know what, that dinner scene was a little racist" is enough to brand you as "hated forever".

The fact is, the history of pulps is not pretty and was born out of a time were racism and ignorance, particularly of non-European cultures, was the order of the day. Of course, we can't forget that the pulps would willfully ignore sense and reason in the name of 'scary fun'. (The occult-based pulps, which Temple of Doom brazenly homages - to the point of ripping off entire movies - were notorious for this.)

As a pulp fan, it's often painful for me to see some ming-boggingly stupid assertations of various cultures and religions which wouldn't remotely fly in today's society. So when a movie that homages these pulps, such as Temple of Doom, comes along, it's far too easy to fall into the traps the genre established. Was it the 'most racist movie ever'? Of course not, but this doesn't whitewash the fact that parts of the movie were offensive. Simple as that.

I'm far more disturbed by the fact that some people would not only feel the need to whitewash this fact rather than accept it for what it is, but also feel the need to personaly demonize and harass those who disagree with them. In a rational sense, "it's just a movie" comes into play here. Why would anyone feel the need to personalize for themselves a 1980s adventure movie to the point they're willing to make personal enemies out of it?

No one is trying to make enemies here or demonize and harass. You are far too sensitive. Also, I don't see the racism you and others speak of and you have actually gotten rather abrasive with me and others about it when we disagree with you. You should really read the thread again and you might see that I am trying to see your point of view by asking questions calmly and you respond in childish outburst about my character. You actually are the one who would be making enemies.

Vance said:
I'm struggling to be polite to someone whom I believe has neither the character nor intellect worth of a decent human being.

You say this to me yet I'm trying to make enemies? Where is your head at?
 

Vance

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
offensive ≠ racism.

Honestly, you're choosing to parse definitions in order to 'win' this argument. The scene in question was offensive to the Indian race and Hindu culture. It was done so with disregard rather than malice, but it was done so.

What are you trying to accomplish here by demonizing my viewpoint and me personally? Why do you have such a personal stake in this?
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Vance said:
Honestly, you're choosing to parse definitions in order to 'win' this argument. The scene in question was offensive to the Indian race and Hindu culture. It was done so with disregard rather than malice, but it was done so.

What are you trying to accomplish here by demonizing my viewpoint and me personally? Why do you have such a personal stake in this?

What is offensive about it? Where does it directly say that it is a representation of Indian race or Hinduism? If the movie was a cult in America with white people as the cultists, would it be racist? Where did he demonize your viewpoint. He only is questioning it.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
The movies are not racist, not even accidently racist. They were deliberately (consciously) written to present a certain style and humour, etc to a modern viewing public. If one cannot see the degrees of difference between the claims (of racism) and the actual achievements, then the task is to keep talking until both sides find an equal view. Yet again, not one instance of racism has been found to support the view that there is racism in the IJ movies. If there is racism in there and I am missing it, then I would very much like it pointed out.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Vance said:
Certainly we can agree that the movie was indelicate in dealing with the Hindu culture, at the very least.
Regarding "Hindu culture"...

I voted that the films are not racist but can agree with the "indelicate" treatment of Hindu culture (perfect adjective, Vance) because of one, singular, outstanding factor: The portrayal of the goddess, Kali.

In the film, Kali is portrayed as satanic & evil. Her demonic face on the big statue in "Temple of Doom" was fashioned for the film...and it's a falsely, fabricated depiction of her face. Indian art never depicts her that way and neither do other, older films about Thuggee. I can understand how this would've upset Indians and can't count how many times people have had a gross misunderstanding about what Kali represents, due to the Indy movie and that movie alone (even I, myself, was guilty of that in the mid-'80s). One thing I don't like about reading posts here at The Raven or listening to the IndyCast is discovering how naive & ignorant some folks are (mostly Americans...and I'm sorry to say that...but it's a real & identifiable observation).:(

For the average viewer, "Temple of Doom", also perpetuates misinterpretations of Indian history, the most common being facts about the 1857 mutiny and the incorrect pronunciation of the word, "Thuggee".

On the other hand:
Keep in mind, folks, that "Temple" takes place before India was partitioned with the creation of Pakistan for the Muslims (and as I've said previously, some Thugs were Muslim), so the dinner scene cannot be used as a specific slander against Hindus in particular.

Going even further, the troops (shown in the film) under Blumburtt's command were Muslims & Buddhists and NOT Hindu.

It's important to distinguish that "religion" and "race" are 2 different things.;)
 
Last edited:

RKORadio

Guest
If there is an established Anglo pronunciation or spelling of a foreign word or sound, it's not "incorrect", It's just the established English standard.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
RKORadio said:
If there is an established Anglo pronunciation or spelling of a foreign word or sound, it's not "incorrect", It's just the established English standard.
Hi, RKORadio.:hat: You have a really, cool username and I like it very much.

Indiana Jones is supposed to be an "expert on the occult" so why would he pronounce "Thuggee" with an "H"? (I'll tell you why...It was for the benefit of the 'Western' audience.)

---
Anglocized / English pronunciations of foreign words can be squashed as easily as beliefs about other cultures. Sometimes, they are not correct (as is the case with "Thuggee").

One of the worst examples is the person (from the "Trekkies" documentary) who is now a teacher of anthropology who likes to incorporate Indiana Jones into his lessons but pronounces the word, "Thuggee", incorrectly. Guess where he got his knowledge from? "Indiana Jones" and he is spreading his uneducated verbage to American students, using the "Doom" film as reference (and promoted by the Indy Cast). This guy must be stopped.

---
Anyway, RKORadio, I'd like to know which 1930s serials you've seen and which elements that you found were "cruel and insensitive"!:whip:
 

RKORadio

Guest
RKO Radio - I'm a fan of RKO Radio Pictures and their later radio station-owning incarnation, RKO General.

I'm also a fan of Shirley Temple, Jane Withers, Virginia Weidler and Peggy Ann Garner.
 

TMan

New member
Keep in mind too, the time frame of when Indiana Jones takes place is around the 40s and 50s. So racism wasn't seen in the way we see it today. In those days slavery was "allowed". Was it right ? No. But back then, it was "normal".

I know this, the storyline of the indie films were never meant to come across as racist, and usually the ones who call such things that, have some issues they need to work out. Sometimes to the point that they themselves are racist. Heck, even the cartoon South Park brought this point up.
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Stoo said:
Hi, RKORadio.:hat: You have a really, cool username and I like it very much.

Indiana Jones is supposed to be an "expert on the occult" so why would he pronounce "Thuggee" with an "H"? (I'll tell you why...It was for the benefit of the 'Western' audience.)

---
Anglocized / English pronunciations of foreign words can be squashed as easily as beliefs about other cultures. Sometimes, they are not correct (as is the case with "Thuggee").

One of the worst examples is the person (from the "Trekkies" commentary) who is now a teacher of anthropology who likes to incorporate Indiana Jones into his lessons but pronounces the word, "Thuggee", incorrectly. Guess where he got his knowledge from? "Indiana Jones" and he is spreading his uneducated verbage to American students, using the "Doom" film as reference (and promoted by the Indy Cast). This guy must be stopped.

---
Anyway, RKORadio, I'd like to know which 1930s serials you've seen and which elements that you found were "cruel and insensitive"!:whip:



Since I am a ignorant and naive American, you will have to explain, how does mispronouncing the word Thuggee benefit the Western audience? It was probably a lack of knowledge that lead to the pronunciation being off. Also nice way to respond RKO. You answered with fluff and side stepped the real question as usual. What 1930's serials have you seen that you found to be cruel and racist?
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Stoo said:
Regarding "Hindu culture"...

I voted that the films are not racist but can agree with the "indelicate" treatment of Hindu culture (perfect adjective, Vance) because of one, singular, outstanding factor: The portrayal of the goddess, Kali.

In the film, Kali is portrayed as satanic & evil. Her demonic face on the big statue in "Temple of Doom" was fashioned for the film...and it's a falsely, fabricated depiction of her face. Indian art never depicts her that way and neither do other, older films about Thuggee. I can understand how this would've upset Indians and can't count how many times people have had a gross misunderstanding about what Kali represents, due to the Indy movie and that movie alone (even I, myself, was guilty of that in the mid-'80s). One thing I don't like about reading posts here at The Raven or listening to the IndyCast is discovering how naive & ignorant some folks are (mostly Americans...and I'm sorry to say that...but it's a real & identifiable observation).:(

For the average viewer, "Temple of Doom", also perpetuates misinterpretations of Indian history, the most common being facts about the 1857 mutiny and the incorrect pronunciation of the word, "Thuggee".

On the other hand:
Keep in mind, folks, that "Temple" takes place before India was partitioned with the creation of Pakistan for the Muslims (and as I've said previously, some Thugs were Muslim), so the dinner scene cannot be used as a specific slander against Hindus in particular.

Going even further, the troops (shown in the film) under Blumburtt's command were Muslims & Buddhists and NOT Hindu.

It's important to distinguish that "religion" and "race" are 2 different things.;)

You want racism. I give you Stoo. He is so much more enlightened than us stupid Americans. He also knows how oriental people speak according to this gem in the "Disney Indiana Jones Connection" .........

Stoo said:
The plane is a sweet addition but the aircraft I.D. reads, "C-3PO" and not "OB-CPO". Can you picture all the Oriental tourists who don't know better? "See Tree Pee O...Dat from a da Sta Was! I not know dat Disney make a da Sta Was and da Indiana Jones!":p

I am so glad we have you here to tell us about racism. You seem to know all about being racist.
 
Last edited:

RKORadio

Guest
Re: Henry

Racism is still around in the modern USA - several Texas attorney's have called their own black client "nigg*r" and one Southern prosecutor claimed that a black defendent's illness was not a valid medical complaint but just "niggeritis"
 

Henry W Jones

New member
RKORadio said:
Re: Henry

Racism is still around in the modern USA - several Texas attorney's have called their own black client "nigg*r" and one Southern prosecutor claimed that a black defendent's illness was not a valid medical complaint but just "niggeritis"

When did I say it wasn't? What was the point of that comment? Toast for breakfast is also still around in modern USA. I live here and have a very diverse family and I am very aware of racism in the US. Any other obvious things you would like to point out? Maybe you could finally explain the racism in Indiana Jones instead of telling me facts about a country I live in that everyone is aware of still has racism. We are not talking about racism in America.

Still no proof of racism in Indiana Jones and still no elaboration about Charlie Chan. I would ask again but you will just sidestep some more.
 
Last edited:
Top