TheRaider.net
 

Go Back   The Raven > Off Topic > Globe-trotting
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-19-2011, 10:53 PM   #26
Billy Ray
IndyFan
 
Billy Ray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,606
Quote:
Before you consider your bandana...

Come again?
Billy Ray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 11:59 PM   #27
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by neverAcquiesce
You can't even do it under the guise of an evil character for entertainment...

It hit Freddie Starr's career. That and the small matter of him not being funny.







You can't give the HitlergruŖ in Berlin, but I think it's still legal to 'Do the Lambeth Walk' in London:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYJ5F8ctyus
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2011, 03:36 AM   #28
davidraphael
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 45
It's a fine line.

I'm not especially pro-political-correctness, so I think there are ways of employing Nazi symbolism (or, for that matter, any contentious iconography or subject) in art, serious drama, satire or parody. It all depends on the context.

These motifs should be used carefully and with sensitivity.

Many people don't have that kind of skill, so they should leave well alone.
davidraphael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2011, 04:09 AM   #29
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidraphael
It's a fine line.

I'm not especially pro-political-correctness, so I think there are ways of employing Nazi symbolism (or, for that matter, any contentious iconography or subject) in art, serious drama, satire or parody. It all depends on the context.

These motifs should be used carefully and with sensitivity.

Many people don't have that kind of skill, so they should leave well alone.

Just don't let history get buried to the point that children think of it as something mythical, but instead as something living and being repeated at any moment somewhere in the world.

It's no coincidence that Arabs daubed swastikas on the walls of an Israeli embassy. The abused are not immune from mimicking the crimes of their former abusers.

The Nazis weren't a special case. Not worse than the Soviets. Or the worst excesses of the British Empire - which eventually gave the world the modern concept of the concentration camp during the Boer war.

The media shouldn't shrink from presenting the uncomfortable truth, nor should it belittle it. Maybe that's why Disney doesn't put swastikas on their toys any more - because the toys represented media that did belittle the truth. By 'belittle' I mean that media consigns the 'Nazi spirit' to a specific, long ago point of history. It is, however, alive and well under many guises in both the east and west. It can be undermined by humour as well as by humanitarian argument.

In the case of Raiders I'd argue there was a fine line. We see a pulp personification of evil, and a gross mishandling of history, but at least it wasn't afraid to show a flawed hero. It wasn't an entirely crass flag-waving piece of propaganda.

Last edited by Montana Smith : 09-20-2011 at 04:24 AM.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2011, 08:30 AM   #30
Rocket Surgeon
Guest
 
Rocket Surgeon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
The Nazis weren't a special case. Not worse than the Soviets. Or the worst excesses of the British Empire - which eventually gave the world the modern concept of the concentration camp during the Boer war.
Sometimes I wonder Monsieur, whether people have that clearly in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
The media shouldn't shrink from presenting the uncomfortable truth, nor should it belittle it.
Well in the free market it's shock that sells advertising...and it's all about the almighty dollar/euro/rupee...(maybe not so mighty these days).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Maybe that's why Disney doesn't put swastikas on their toys any more...
Even Lucas danced the line reagrding toys for tots that parents would buy. The headless Jango didn't inclue a head, why there wasn't more outcry against a pregnant Padme "action" figure was and wasn't surprising. Where was the birthing table and twins accesories?

Are kids really playing witha pregnant Padme? Where's our wedding Marion and Indy with chapel playset?

Swastikas are easy, and I wouldn't expect them on the Lego Flying Wing, though I would expect them on a model kit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
In the case of Raiders I'd argue there was a fine line. We see a pulp personification of evil, and a gross mishandling of history, but at least it wasn't afraid to show a flawed hero. It wasn't an entirely crass flag-waving piece of propaganda.
Gross? Really? The Ark acted exactly as it should have!
Rocket Surgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2011, 08:45 AM   #31
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Sometimes I wonder Monsieur, whether people have that clearly in mind.

...

Swastikas are easy, and I wouldn't expect them on the Lego Flying Wing, though I would expect them on a model kit.

The swastika is demonized to the point where it is all but forbidden but for special occasions. The Hammer and Sickle is, however, used far more freely, though Stalinís regime was just as evil as Hitlerís, and lasted for longer.

To the victors go the spoils of history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Gross? Really? The Ark acted exactly as it should have!

Nazi gods. I hate those guys!
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2011, 09:13 AM   #32
davidraphael
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 45
Yes, the swastika has been demonised (which in some ways is a shame for Buddhism, from which the 3rd Reich stole it -and flipped it). Indeed, Stalin killed millions. There are a list of human atrocities committed by states and individuals as long as your arm.

The simple and plain difference is that the nazi swastika has come to be highly symbolic of holocaust atrocities. The hammer and sickle has not - it is generally more symbolic of communism and sovietism as a whole (though of course Stalin's crimes are included in that)

A symbol works like a word. We, the people, give words and symbols their cultural meanings and the weight of their significance. It's the same with profane and some race or sexually related words. It might not seem fair that a word has developed so much meaning and weight. But that's just the way it is. That's what we did with it as a culture; that's how the meaning of the word and its cultural weight evolved.

This leaves only one question. What reason do we have to undo or justify a less negative connotation of a swastika? I can't think of one strong enough to outweigh its current status.

The swastika, of course, like any other word or symbol will evolve with time and come to mean new things. Or there will, at least, be shifts.

The key is being aware of what words and symbols mean to others and act out of respect and well-informed reason.
Yes, there will always be some people who get upset about the use of a word or symbol and there's nothing wrong with challenging a convention, as long as it's for the right reasons.
Provocation just for the sheer sake of it lacks integrity and, ultimately, power.
davidraphael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2011, 09:19 AM   #33
Rocket Surgeon
Guest
 
Rocket Surgeon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidraphael
Provocation just for the sheer sake of it lacks integrity and, ultimately, power.

In which case its useful for determining crazy people from the general population or vice versa...
Rocket Surgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2011, 10:01 AM   #34
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidraphael
Yes, the swastika has been demonised (which in some ways is a shame for Buddhism, from which the 3rd Reich stole it -and flipped it). Indeed, Stalin killed millions. There are a list of human atrocities committed by states and individuals as long as your arm.

The simple and plain difference is that the nazi swastika has come to be highly symbolic of holocaust atrocities. The hammer and sickle has not - it is generally more symbolic of communism and sovietism as a whole (though of course Stalin's crimes are included in that)

Murder is murder and rape is rape, whoever the victims are.

When Hitler and Stalin divided Poland between themselves, Hitler took the Jews, and Stalin took the intelligentsia, aided by Jews wearing red armbands.

The horror of the holocaust was enough to make the division of Palestine an acceptable act after the war.

In hindsight that act stored up a long-term problem in the Middle-East, but the swastika was already demonized. While the Soviet Union, who had been raping their way west under orders, sat in judgement at Nuremberg.

To the victors go the spoils, and that's the way of history.

The endeavour was to ensure that what happened under Hitler's rule could never be repeated. But as you wrote, "There are a list of human atrocities committed by states and individuals as long as your arm."

Human immorality is more than just a crooked cross.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2013, 09:14 AM   #35
Rocket Surgeon
Guest
 
Rocket Surgeon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,882
In Greece the Hitlergruß is nasty enough for a lifetime ban from a sport!



AEK Athens midfielder Giorgos Katidis raises his hand in a Nazi style salute, as his teammate Roger Guerreiro looks on, as he celebrates scoring the winning goal in a Greek league game against Veria in Athens' Olympic Stadium, Saturday, March 16, 2013. AEK won the game 2-1. There has been no official reaction yet to the gesture, which has raised a storm of protest on the Internet. (AP Photo/INTIME)

Quote:
ATHENS, Greece (AP) — AEK Athens midfielder Giorgos Katidis has earned rebukes from politicians, fellow athletes and fans after giving a Nazi salute in celebration of a goal he scored in the Greek league.

Photographs show him giving a Nazi salute after scoring the go-ahead goal in the 84th minute over visiting Veria on Saturday. In one photo, Katidis' Brazilian-born teammate, Roger Guerreiro, looks at him with an expression of astonishment.

The 20-year-old Katidis pleaded ignorance of the meaning of his gesture — right arm extended and hand straightened. He claimed on his Twitter account that he detests fascism.

AEK's German coach Ewald Lienen, said the player doesn't have an "idea about politics."

Life ban from Greece team for Nazi salute player

Quote:
ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- Greek soccer player Giorgos Katidis has been banned from his national team for life after giving a Nazi salute while celebrating a goal in the topflight league.

Greece's soccer federation said Sunday in a statement that the AEK Athens midfielder's gesture "is a deep insult to all victims of Nazi brutality."

The 20-year-old Katidis gave a Nazi salute after scoring the go-ahead goal Saturday in AEK's 2-1 victory over Veria in the Greek league. He pleaded ignorance of the meaning of his gesture - right arm extended and hand straightened. He claimed on his Twitter account that he detests fascism.

AEK and the Greek league are considering separate sanctions. AEK fans have demanded Katidis' dismissal from the team.

Katidis has played for Greek national junior teams but not the senior side.
Rocket Surgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2013, 01:46 PM   #36
Indy's brother
IndyFan
 
Indy's brother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In the Map Room playing with a laser pointer
Posts: 3,029
HAHAHA!!! What a total douchebag.

Quote:
Katidis pleaded ignorance of the meaning of his gesture

......rrrrrriiiiiiight.
Indy's brother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 04:07 PM   #37
WilliamBoyd8
IndyFan
 
WilliamBoyd8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 762
This scene from the 1947 film "The Red Pony" showing American children doing a Nazi salute
really creeped me out when I saw it on television in the 1960's:



And guess who the teacher is?



I know, there are quibbles about "that is how things were in those days",
but to a kid those explanations meant nothing.

WilliamBoyd8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 10:26 PM   #38
Gear
IndyFan
 
Gear's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oregon, U.S.
Posts: 2,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamBoyd8
This scene from the 1947 film "The Red Pony" showing American children doing a Nazi salute
really creeped me out when I saw it on television in the 1960's:



An up-turned palm "Nazi salute"?
Gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 11:51 PM   #39
WilliamBoyd8
IndyFan
 
WilliamBoyd8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 762
To a kid watching television in the 1960's, with no technology for freezing frames,
that looked like a Nazi salute.

WilliamBoyd8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 12:51 AM   #40
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gear
An up-turned palm "Nazi salute"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamBoyd8
To a kid watching television in the 1960's, with no technology for freezing frames, that looked like a Nazi salute.


The similarity was no accident...

IMDB Trivia - The Red Pony (1949)

Quote:
In one of the school scenes, the children say the Pledge of Allegiance with their right arms extended, pointed toward the flag. This was the Bellamy Salute suggested by Francis Bellamy, who wrote the original version of the Pledge. Due to its similarity to the Nazi and Fascist salute, President Franklin D. Roosevelt changed the position to hand-over-the-heart. This was later codified into law in 1942.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041792/...ef_=tt_trv_trv


Quote:
The Bellamy salute is the salute described by Francis Bellamy to accompany the American Pledge of Allegiance, which he had authored. During the period when it was used with the Pledge of Allegiance, it was sometimes known as the "flag salute". During the 1920s and 1930s, Italian fascists and Nazis adopted salutes which were similar in form, resulting in controversy over the use of the Bellamy salute in the United States. It was officially replaced by the hand-over-heart salute when Congress amended the Flag Code on December 22, 1942.

The inventor of the saluting gesture was James B. Upham, junior partner and editor of The Youth's Companion.[1] Bellamy recalled Upham, upon reading the pledge, came into the posture of the salute, snapped his heels together, and said "Now up there is the flag; I come to salute; as I say 'I pledge allegiance to my flag,' I stretch out my right hand and keep it raised while I say the stirring words that follow."[1]

The Bellamy salute was first demonstrated on October 12, 1892 according to Bellamy's published instructions for the "National School Celebration of Columbus Day":


The initial civilian salute was replaced with a hand-on-heart gesture, followed by the extension of the arm as described by Bellamy.

In the 1920s, Italian fascists adopted the Roman salute to symbolize their claim to have revitalized Italy on the model of ancient Rome. This was quickly copied by the German Nazis, creating the Nazi salute. The similarity to the Bellamy salute led to confusion, especially during World War II. From 1939 until the attack on Pearl Harbor, detractors of Americans who argued against intervention in World War II produced propaganda using the salute to lessen those Americans' reputations. Among the anti-interventionist Americans was aviation pioneer Charles Lindbergh. Supporters of Lindbergh's views would claim that Lindbergh did not support Adolf Hitler, and that pictures of him appearing to do the Nazi salute were actually pictures of him using the Bellamy salute. In his Pulitzer prize winning biography Lindbergh, author A. Scott Berg explains that interventionist propagandists would photograph Lindbergh and other isolationists using this salute from an angle that left out the American flag, so it would be indistinguishable from the Hitler salute to observers.

In order to prevent further confusion or controversy, US Congress instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute.[2] This was done when Congress amended the Flag Code on December 22, 1942.[3][4]

There was initially some resistance to dropping the Bellamy salute, for example from the Daughters of the American Revolution,[5] but this opposition died down quickly following Nazi Germany's declaration of war against the United States on December 11, 1941.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 11:34 AM   #41
WilliamBoyd8
IndyFan
 
WilliamBoyd8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 762
Oh my, I seemed to have opened a bottle and let the Genie out.

WilliamBoyd8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 12:31 PM   #42
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamBoyd8
Oh my, I seemed to have opened a bottle and let the Genie out.





I've never seen the film, though I had to read The Red Pony in school. It was the saddest book I'd read since Watership Down.

The Bellamy thing was new to me, though.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2013, 07:48 PM   #43
Archaeos
IndyFan
 
Archaeos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Not The British Museum
Posts: 244
Monty, that #40 was a most interesting post! I had never heard of the Bellamy Salute, so therefore, I learned a lot! Thanks!
Archaeos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2013, 02:25 AM   #44
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaeos
Monty, that #40 was a most interesting post! I had never heard of the Bellamy Salute, so therefore, I learned a lot! Thanks!

And thanks to Hopalong for resuscitating Topper, otherwise I wouldn't have known about Bellamy either!
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:16 AM.