What did you think Spalko did...

James

Well-known member
Udvarnoky said:
It's as though you're saying that simply because Indy4 is an example of popcorn entertainment, it can't be called better or worse than other examples of the same genre.

I'm similarly nonplussed by your estimation of Indy4's "unbridled imagination," but honestly if movies were supposed to get a pass on the basis of having imagination, just about all actual B-movies would be great movies.

As I often like to say, the sequels tend to balance each other out in my mind. In other words, where we're missing each other here is that I tend to compare Indy unto himself. This is why I talk in terms of Temple having the best action or Crusade being the funniest. (It doesn't mean I'm suggesting they should be grouped with Die Hard or National Lampoon's Vacation.)

In the case of KOTCS, I simply consider it to be the most imaginative of the sequels. Temple steals liberally from Gunga Din, while Crusade largely recycles Raiders. KOTCS- with its diverse mix of aliens, nuclear fridges, conquistadors, army ants, monkey attacks, and lost cities- is akin to mainlining an old pulp novel.

Udvarnoky said:
Furthermore, "a great film by 2008 standards," whatever the heck that's supposed to mean

Just another way of saying KOTCS was unlikely to win any Oscars, but critics could still regard it as a good "Indiana Jones film" all the same.

It goes back to the idea of judging Indy unto himself- a point most every series seems to reach eventually. Moonraker may have its share of critics, but it's still a good example of a "Bond Movie" from the era. The same holds true of everything from Rocky IV to Charlie Chan at the Opera to Viva Las Vegas. (The latter being a prime example of the "Presley Formula".)
 

Col. Detritch

New member
Montana, great script quote.(y)

I didn't find Spalko any less convincing as an Indy villain than anyone else. If every thing was black and white; good and evil every single time things would get boring. The fact that Indy and Irina can share common intersts and work together (whether he is forced to work with her or not is besides the point) and yet still be foes is clever. Plus that is the whole theme of the movie and the Cold War; no one is who they seem, no one is a clear cut villain or hero resulting in different points of view that conflict with possibly dangerous results. Some where along the line the good guys and the bad guys got muddled up and is depends on who you're going for to define the villain now (not that it didn't before). The movie could have easily been made from Irina Spalko's point of view because she is not completely evil but she appears evil due to our bias against her because she apposes Indy our hero. But Raiders or Crusade or even Doom couldn't be told from from Belloq, Donovan or Mola Ram's points of view because they are plain black and white villains. I think this gives KotCS a 3rd dimention and a deeper less bias look into history.:hat:
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Col. Detritch said:
Montana, great script quote.(y)

I didn't find Spalko any less convincing as an Indy villain than anyone else. If every thing was black and white; good and evil every single time things would get boring. The fact that Indy and Irina can share common intersts and work together (whether he is forced to work with her or not is besides the point) and yet still be foes is clever. Plus that is the whole theme of the movie and the Cold War; no one is who they seem, no one is a clear cut villain or hero resulting in different points of view that conflict with possibly dangerous results. Some where along the line the good guys and the bad guys got muddled up and is depends on who you're going for to define the villain now (not that it didn't before). The movie could have easily been made from Irina Spalko's point of view because she is not completely evil but she appears evil due to our bias against her because she apposes Indy our hero. But Raiders or Crusade or even Doom couldn't be told from from Belloq, Donovan or Mola Ram's points of view because they are plain black and white villains. I think this gives KotCS a 3rd dimention and a deeper less bias look into history.:hat:

Good point, Col. Detritch.

In Raiders it was a race between the US and German governments to take possession of the Ark. Hitler would have used it to further his territorial and racial ambitions. It's just as well the US hid it away in Hangar 51.

In Last Crusade it was the race forthe Grail Cup, only this time nobody got to take possession of it.

In KOTCS Indy is working to prevent the Russians from exploiting the power of the Crystal Skull.

In all the cases it isn't certain that the 'good guys' will use the artifact responsibly. Who's to say that Stalin only wanted possession of the skull because he feared what America might do to Russia if America possessed it? Stalin had cause to fear, since the only country in history to ever drop a nuclear bomb was America, and they did it twice. Villlains are more interesting if they inhabit grey areas, rather than strictly black or white.

Irina is interesting also because she isn't the classic sexily dressed dominant bimbo kind of villain. She dresses in a masculine fashion, is coldly ambitious, yet retains an alluring feminine sexuality. And she knows it: she knew what Mac's first thoughts were in the quote I copied from the script above! ;)

It's no wonder she became Stalin's fair-haired girl.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Col. Detritch said:
Montana, great script quote.(y)

I didn't find Spalko any less convincing as an Indy villain than anyone else. If every thing was black and white; good and evil every single time things would get boring. The fact that Indy and Irina can share common intersts and work together (whether he is forced to work with her or not is besides the point) and yet still be foes is clever. Plus that is the whole theme of the movie and the Cold War; no one is who they seem, no one is a clear cut villain or hero resulting in different points of view that conflict with possibly dangerous results. Some where along the line the good guys and the bad guys got muddled up and is depends on who you're going for to define the villain now (not that it didn't before). The movie could have easily been made from Irina Spalko's point of view because she is not completely evil but she appears evil due to our bias against her because she apposes Indy our hero. But Raiders or Crusade or even Doom couldn't be told from from Belloq, Donovan or Mola Ram's points of view because they are plain black and white villains. I think this gives KotCS a 3rd dimention and a deeper less bias look into history.:hat:

Agreed. I think it's clearly suggested early on in KOTCS that Indy has as much, if not more, to fear from the US officials than he does from the "Commies". I certainly would have liked to see this angle worked/played more (as in the end the movie brushes past it's 'Witch Hunt' references). Still, I think it's interesting nonetheless. :)
 
Looks bogus to me...but

Stoo said:
We need a good screengrab of her dossier from "Skull". I wonder if there are any clues in the fine print...

INDIANA JONES CRYSTAL SKULL SPALKO FBI FILE

!Bg6YTGgBmk~$(KGrHqIH-DoEsK+HSKe)BLH!KSHGSw~~_12.JPG


http://cgi.ebay.ie/INDIANA-JONES-CR...ewItemQQimsxZ20100118?IMSfp=TL100118222001r19
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Looks bogus to me...but

!Bg6YTGgBmk~$(KGrHqIH-DoEsK+HSKe)BLH!KSHGSw~~_12.JPG
Yeah, it's bogus. Not great but a fair attempt. Looks like the text is accurate, though! Wonder where the seller got the info?

For comparion's sake:

Spalko_File.jpg

Rocket Surgeon said:
I gave it a shot, and on DVD it's unintelligible...It seems they used some lite paper stock and the content of the second page make it even harder to see.
Nothing is impossible!:D The onion skin paper does make it a little more difficult but I pretty much deciphered the main body of the left-hand page using just the regular DVD. (The underlined words are not 100% but Spalko *may* have a nickname! "Scissors"!:p

Attached please find our most secret file on COLONEL
DOCTOR IRINA SPALKO, as requested by General Ross,
Commanding Officer, W.W. All information herewith is
highly classified and of eyes only status. This file
________ a compilation of reports from various W.W.
military ____ies, counterintelligence agents in the
field, and ______ied ______ ______.

COLONEL DOCTOR SPALKO has been of particular interest to
the Department of Counterintelligence for some time. Her
_________ with psychic research and the paranormal has
____ ____ ________, and her determination to find mili-
tary applications for _____ as called “Scissors” is
without question.

A recently intercepted telegram reveals this COLONEL
DOCTOR is in working with teams from the Kremlin on a
specialty mission of some kind. Unfortunately, details
are scarce, and not much else is known.

COLONEL DOCTOR SPALKO is a master of edged weapons and
has a fierce temper. She is extremely dangerous. Any
information in regards to her whereabouts should be
reported to The Department without hesitation.
Please ______ this document via red flag courier immedi-
ately after reading.

Prepared by LT. Colonel McGuinness
Rocket Surgeon said:
Maybe those of you with the BluRay...
I have 2 copies of it on Blu-ray and neither of them will play on my SONY VAIO self-labelled, "Blu-ray Disc Mulitmedia Powerhouse"! Grrrrr!:mad:
 

arkfinder

New member
Montana Smith said:
Spalko is said to be in her mid-thirties in the novel, which could mean she was born around 1922. So when the Great Patriotic War began in 1941 she would have been old enough to play a part.

The war diaries of Irina Spalko, Stalin's 'fair-haired girl', might make interesting reading.

In KOTCS we never saw much of her powers beyond telepathy, and she fought Mutt with her sword, rather than use any form of 'psychic attack'. In the realm of an Indiana Jones movie Spalko turns out to be quite understated, which puts her alongside other villains such as Toht, Belloq, Donovan, or Vogel. Mola Ram seemed to have more physical supernatural abilities - the heart removal trick (unless that was just a sleight of hand).



Well, there ya have it in a nut shell.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
What did Spalko's contemporaries do?

Stalin's space monkeys

It looks like a neglected zoo. But the Institute of Experimental Pathology and Therapy has its own macabre chapter in the history of the Soviet Union. Shaun Walker reports from Sukhumi, Abkhazia

Tuesday, 15 April 2008

apes_23966a.jpg


From the old railway station, now a hollow shell covered in weeds, a long concrete stairway, sheltered by sub-tropical foliage, winds from the centre of Sukhumi up to a collection of buildings, many pocked with bullet holes or crushed by bombs.


The first thing that registers is the putrid smell of animal faeces, then from inside one building comes a primeval squawking that sounds like a child being tortured. Cage after cage of distraught-looking monkeys come into view, nearly 300 in all, gnawing at mandarins and scampering around their enclosures.

This is what remains of the Institute of Experimental Pathology and Therapy, the first primate testing centre in the world, and possibly the site of a macabre Stalinist experiment to breed a human-ape hybrid. Set amid palm trees and lush greenery on a hill just outside the centre of Sukhumi, it was once the envy of the West. Its behavioural and medical experiments set it at the forefront of groundbreaking medical discoveries, and trained monkeys for space travel.

But the years of Mikhail Gorbachev's perestroika, then the Georgian-Abkhaz war, took a heavy toll on the centre. Most of its scientists left to set up a new centre in Russia, along with most of the monkeys that were not killed. What is left today is a disturbing shadow of the institute's former glory.

Legend has it that the institute, which opened in 1927, was born of a secret Soviet plan to create a man-ape hybrid that would become a Soviet superman and propel the Soviet Union ahead of the West. The Soviet elite, goes the apocryphal tale that has appeared widely in Russian media, wanted to create a prototype worker that would be inhumanly strong and mentally dulled, to carry out the gruelling work of industrialising the vast expanses of newly Sovietised territory.

Scientists at the institute today admit that these experiments did go on at the institute, though they deny it was part of any overarching plan for the creation of a new race. The tests were performed by Ilya Ivanov, an eminent Russian biologist who had also collaborated with the Pasteur Institute in Paris. About the turn of the century he had perfected the technique of artificially inseminating mares, and had also produced cross-breeds between various different species. Then, Europe was alive with ideas of eugenics, and the Soviets were out to prove once and for all that Darwinism had superseded religion.

"Professor Ivanov started these experiments in Africa and continued them here in Sukhumi," says Vladimir Barkaya, who started at the institute in 1961 and is now scientific director. "He took sperm from human males and injected it into female chimpanzees, although nothing came of it." Professor Barkaya denies monkey sperm was used on human females, although letters were apparently received by the institution by people of both sexes offering to participate in the experiments.

In time, the institute evolved from science fiction to evidence-based practice. Work at the institute was instrumental in the creation of a Soviet polio vaccine, and its scientists worked on all the major diseases of the 20th century.

One man's name is synonymous with the centre. Boris Lapin was born in 1921 and after a heroic turn in the Second World War, started work at the Sukhumi monkey colony in 1949. In 1959 he was appointed director of the institute, and ran it up until 1992, when during the Abkhaz-Georgian war he fled along with the majority of employees and monkeys across the border to Russia. Despite being in his late eighties, he still runs the institute set up at Adler in Russia.

"My biggest achievement over all this time is that we were able to build the institute up from scratch again," he says, from his Adler office, plastered with photographs of famous visitors to the Sukhumi institute over the years, from Nikita Khrushchev to Ho Chi Minh.

In the 1950s, as Professor Lapin was taking over, word got out to the rest of the world about the uses to which monkeys were being put at Sukhumi. "At the time of Sputnik, there was a huge amount of curiosity in the West about what else the Soviets might have up their sleeves in the fields of science and technology," says Douglas Bowden, an American primatologist who has co-operated with the Sukhumi, then Adler centres since 1962. An expert commission headed by President Dwight Eisenhower's personal doctor went to the Soviet Union in 1957 and visited Sukhumi. "They were so impressed with what they found there that when they came back to the US they recommended to Eisenhower that a similar institute should be set up in the US." In the end, seven centres were set up in the US.

As time went on, the centre also became closely involved with the Soviet space programme, training six monkeys to send into space. "We had to make sure they were intelligent monkeys to perform all their duties in space," Professor Lapin says. "Not every monkey was capable of that sort of thing." After the monkeys blasted off, the centre's employees would watch them on television at Sukhumi.

Then came the collapse of the Soviet Union, which was a disaster for scientists across the vast empire. They went from the pride of the country to being neglected and unfunded. "They were terrible times," says Professor Barkaya. "Many monkeys died, and many people too. We had nothing to feed the monkeys with, and there was no electricity or heating. Many of them simply froze to death."

Violeta Agrba, who was the acting director of the institute during the war, while Professor Lapin was arranging the transfer to Adler, says: "I remember walking around the cages in the winter of 1992, during the war, and seeing a baboon shivering in his cage. It was so sad. But even though we couldn't do any medical work, and there was a war on, we all came to work every day." Professor Agrba once found an unexploded shell on the conference table in her office. There was a huge hole in the ceiling.

The centre also had 1,000 monkeys that lived freely in a special zone in the mountains in the south of Abkhazia, where they were monitored and their behaviour studied. When the war started, many died in the crossfire; some were stolen by troops and used as mascots. "Some are still alive," Professor Agrba says. "But after everything that happened in the war, they are so scared of people they don't approach anyone. We need to do a helicopter survey and find the remaining ones, but there's no money for that."

Today, the centre at Sukhumi, where a few staff who refused to leave during the war have bravely remained and tried to resurrect their scientific work, is struggling to get back on its feet. A German scientist who worked with the institute before the war and took pity on their situation ships them medicines and equipment each year. But most of the best employees went to Alder, and the monkeys seem to have nothing to eat except mandarins.

"The level we had before is very difficult to attain now," Professor Barkaya says. "But while we used to write to people asking to co-operate with them, now they're again coming to us. We had an interesting proposition from St Petersburg, from a company that has produced medicine to reduce blindness in old people. They've tested it on dogs and horses and now they want to test it on monkeys."

The Adler centre in much better shape, with all the most modern equipment and is still at the forefront of medicine, working on stem-cell research and birdflu vaccines, and testing the effects of radiation on monkeys in preparation for a manned flight to Mars. "We've discovered that their immune systems are severely weakened by the radiation given off by solar flares," says Professor Agrba. "Now we need to see how serious this is and how long it lasts."

But even at Adler, the financial situation isn't easy. "One girl used to work here as a lab assistant and got paid 3,000 roubles (£65) a month," Professor Agrba says. "She left to work selling blankets in the market and now she makes 15,000 roubles (£325)."

Obtaining new monkeys is almost impossible now, with most countries banning their export. The days when Professor Lapin and colleagues would simply fly to Nigeria and spend weeks negotiating with tribes for the purchase of monkeys, as happened in the 1960s, are long gone. The Adler institute has a breeding programme, which ensures that its population of 3,700 monkeys is refreshed each year. But for Sukhumi, with just 286 monkeys, inbreeding is a serious problem.

The staff at both centres is split between dignified octogenarians with decades of scientific experience, and budding young scientists. The middle ground is missing. "It's a problem across the former Soviet Union," Professor Barkaya says. "The generation of scientists who came of age during perestroika went into business. Now there is again an interest in science, and it's left to us to pass on our knowledge as best we can to the younger generation to ensure the good work continues."

Ethical concerns that would undoubtedly surround such ventures in Europe are absent both in Abkhazia and in Russia. Neither institute has any security; the thought of animal rights protesters attacking does not even occur to the scientists.

"Of course, we're aware of the ethical difficulties," says Professor Lapin. "But in some cases monkeys are the only animals we can use. Thalidomide was tested on mice and other animals but not on monkeys, and you remember what happened there."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/stalins-space-monkeys-808978.html
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Text too long...

Spalko worked with rabbits, but what about primates? Were the monkeys in KOTCS the result of backfired experimental research? ;)

MANSLIFENov1957_CoverbyWilHulsey-8x6.jpg
 
Who cares how she got her medals?

Hey Lucas - haviong the villian of Indy 4 as a woman? Way to go, freaky neck! What an awesome idea that was.

Here's a suggestion for Indy 5's villain - one that will truly tick the demgraphoic focus group revenue boxes: an evil iPhone! Yes, why not have Mutt going up against a mutated Apple product that plans to take over his Facebook profile? While his dad fumbles at home with the TV remote control, Junior Indy could be out screaming "OMG" and "Dude, whateva!" into his blu-tooth headset.

Indiana Jones & The Near Filed Communication App From Cyberspace


It would truly relevencanise the franchise. Kerching!
 

Montana Smith

Active member
replican't said:
Who cares how she got her medals?

Hey Lucas - haviong the villian of Indy 4 as a woman? Way to go, freaky neck! What an awesome idea that was.

Here's a suggestion for Indy 5's villain - one that will truly tick the demgraphoic focus group revenue boxes: an evil iPhone! Yes, why not have Mutt going up against a mutated Apple product that plans to take over his Facebook profile? While his dad fumbles at home with the TV remote control, Junior Indy could be out screaming "OMG" and "Dude, whateva!" into his blu-tooth headset.

Indiana Jones & The Near Filed Communication App From Cyberspace


It would truly relevencanise the franchise. Kerching!

Not_sure_if_serious.jpg


You may have spent too long looking at things people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. C-beams glittering in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain...

But through the tears KOTCS will still be visible. It'll still be there even when you close your eyes. It's Indy, and he can't escape it, unless he resolves that it was all a dream.

Is that what Spalko did? She made Indy beleive he did some crazy things in 1953. Twas but a dream, or a nightmare.
 
So much money made for so much bollocks produced.

Its a sad situation, with only one solution.

Occupy George Lucas! Now!
 

Montana Smith

Active member
replican't said:
So much money made for so much bollocks produced.

Its a sad situation, with only one solution.

Occupy George Lucas! Now!

Well there's plenty of room for a mass sit-in. But he probably wouldn't even notice.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Me said:
Nothing is impossible!:D The onion skin paper does make it a little more difficult but I pretty much deciphered the main body of the left-hand page using just the regular DVD. (The underlined words are not 100% but Spalko *may* have a nickname! "Scissors"!:p

Attached please find our most secret file on COLONEL
DOCTOR IRINA SPALKO, as requested by General Ross,
Commanding Officer, W.W. All information herewith is
highly classified and of eyes only status. This file
________ a compilation of reports from various W.W.
military ____ies, counterintelligence agents in the
field, and ______ied ______ ______.

COLONEL DOCTOR SPALKO has been of particular interest to
the Department of Counterintelligence for some time. Her
_________ with psychic research and the paranormal has
____ ____ ________, and her determination to find mili-
tary applications for _____ as called ?Scissors? is
without question.

A recently intercepted telegram reveals this COLONEL
DOCTOR is in working with teams from the Kremlin on a
specialty mission of some kind. Unfortunately, details
are scarce, and not much else is known.

COLONEL DOCTOR SPALKO is a master of edged weapons and
has a fierce temper. She is extremely dangerous. Any
information in regards to her whereabouts should be
reported to The Department without hesitation.
Please ______ this document via red flag courier immedi-
ately after reading.

Prepared by LT. Colonel McGuinness

Thanks to the my photos from the National Geographic Exhibition, here is the updated text.
(Corrections in red. Underlined words are not 100%. Any help appreciated.):

===

RESTRICTED
Quarters Ninth Service Command

SPECIAL ORDERS
NO. 247
* EXTRACT *

Attached please find our most recent file on COLONEL
DOCTOR IRINA SPALKO, as requested by General Ross.
Commanding Officer, N.M. All information herewith is
highly classified and of EYES ONLY status. This file
represents a compilation of reports from various U.S.
military branches, counterintelligence agents in the
field, and assorted unnamed sources.

COLONEL DOCTOR SPALKO has been of particular interest to
the Department of Counterintelligence for some time. Her
obessesion with psychic research and the paranormal has
been well-documented, and her determination to find mili-
tary applications for these so called ?Sciences? is
without question.

A recently intercepted telegram reveals the COLONEL
DOCTOR to be working with teams from the Kremlin on a
specialty mission of some kind. Unfortunately, details
are scarce, and not much else is known.

COLONEL DOCTOR SPALKO is a master of edged weapons and
has a fierce temper. She is extremely dangerous. Any
information in regards to her whereabouts should be
reported to The Department without hesitation.
Please return this document via red flag courier immedi-
ately after reading.

Prepared by LT. Colonel McGuinness

DISTRIBUTION: adr
9 - OC MRU, Alexandria, La
(5) 2nd Lt Samarin
6 - MRU
5 - Cpt Adkins
5 - Maj Eylea
10 - CG Camp Walters
(8) 2nd Lt Tibbetts

===

P.S. I previously thought Spalko had the nickname of, "Scissors"!:eek:
 

Lao_Che

Active member
Stoo said:
RESTRICTED
Quarters Ninth Service Command

That part's too obscured on the Blu-ray to read. For me anyway. ;)

What can be seen of text two pages beneath extract :

Colonel-
Superint-
New Jersey
Trenton, New-

Dear Sir:

In conne-
national Irina Spalk-
following reports:

Report of Special Agent-
California, August 19-

Presports[:confused:] of Special Agent-
City, September 1951.

V-
[Partial signature]

Enclosure #677948

The photo side:

DEPARTMENT OF COUNTERINTELLIGENCE
FOREIGN MILITARY IDENTIFICATION CARD
FORWARDED FOR INTERAGENCY PURPOSES ONLY

Name Col. Irina Spalko
Address Unknown
City Moscow
Place of Birth Kazan, USSR
Date of Birth May 26, 1921
Nationality Russian

[Photo]

Height 5' 8 1/2" Build Slender
Weight 135 [Comp?] Fair
Eyes Blue Hair Black
Scars and Marks None

Remarks
HIGH LEVEL OF THREAT
1 Trained in edged weapons,
counter espionage.
Direct links to Stalin
and the Soviet High Councils.
Known to have multiple passports and aliases.
 

Cole

New member
I don't get the impression that Spalko *actually* has psychic powers.....I think she merely tries to intimidate Indy by acting like she does. When Indy laughs it off and Spalko sees he can't be intimidated, she playfully smacks his cheek and resorts to "the old-fashioned" way of brute force.

I think it's a way of setting up this whole idea of mind control and Spalko's obsession with it, but no, I don't think she actually has psychic powers.

What makes Spalko a dangerous villain is her cold, steely personality and an obsession to get what she wants that stops at nothing.

I think Spalko is a great character......Blanchett created the whole look for the character and she knew exactly where she was going with it. According to Spielberg, she brought a ton of enthusiasm to the part. To me, the character is comparable to Mola Ram in that the looks and mannerisms of the villains are over-the-top, but are very well-acted and are deliciously evil and entertaining.
 

Benraianajones

New member
An old topic, but....I wanted to add to it.

I think Irina is a great character to be honest. I like her in the movie, but there is so much room to have improved her. If any of you guys have played Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception on Playstation 3 - Irina reminds me of Katherine Marlowe from that game. Both very cereberal styled characters, and both should have had more screen time and development.

Irina Spalko started out really cool, comes out with her shades...attempts to read Jones' mind..doesn't quite work. I think having Irina finish off some of Indy's sentences as he spoke to her would have been a nice spooky little touch. Irina holding her head in pain a little when Indy finds Akator before her would have been nice, like the comic. Also, during the ant attack, should have had her meditate so the ants direct away from her.

I'd see no problem with little things like that, if Mola Ram can reach his hand in a chest and yank out a heart and someone still be alive. Also, Indiana Jones an the fate of atlantis dealt with Sophia's psychic abilities nicely as well, and it didn't seem out of place in the Indy world, considering spirits in an ark and so forth.

If like the post above suggested, they went for the idea she doesn't really and goes for sheer intimidating, then sadly again - should have been developed more. She easily could be intimidating and cold, but they didn't do much with her.
 
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