Are/were the Batman fans responsible for a lot of the hate?

Mike00spy

Mike00spy

Well-known member
I do remember a lot of Dark Knight discussion in these forums. I'm pretty sure its box office figures were also used to put down Skull. I wouldn't say the hate for Skull was due to Dark Knight?s supporters at all, but there certainly seemed to be a correlation.


WillKill4Food said:
I'm not sure liking TDK over KotCS makes you have better taste, but I think there's the distinct possibility that preferring KotCS over TDK indicates that you have worse taste.
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This is an absurd statement.

It could be as simple as just enjoying the character of Indiana Jones more than Batman. To me, The Dark Knight fails to live up to its own rules. If you want to be taken seriously, then don't pack your movie with a zillion plot holes. The entire second half of the movie is littered with characters making one dumb or illogical decision after another.

1) Two-Face NOT shooting the murderer of his love. Instead, he goes after Gordon (?!)
2) Batman going out of his way to avoid killing the Joker.
3) The Joker escaping from jail. Because you need a cop to guard someone who is inside a locked room?
4) Batman taking the fall for Two-Face?s death when it could have just as easily been blamed on the mob boss or it could have just as easily been left as an unsolved murder.

The problem with those decisions is they exist solely to set up a potential sequel. The so called moral questions in the film fall flat for me as well. I don?t know what?s wrong with killing evil people. Sorry, but the character of Batman in this film is not the type of hero that I wish to spend time with. I mean, how horrible of an ending would it have been if in TOD Indy tried to save Mola Ram from falling? Or warned all the Nazi to cover their eyes in Raiders?
 
D

Darth Vile

New member
Attila the Professor said:
<I>It's a Wonderful Life</I> is escapism? :confused:
I get your point, I suppose, but now <I>that's</I> a movie that's compellingly dark and depressing, pulling out of that tailspin just in the last reel.
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It's a pretty uplifting movie and very fairytale like... but when compared to other movies of the mid 1940's e.g. The Big Sleep, The Postman Always Rings Twice, Brighton Rock etc. (those are just off the top of my head) I'd have thought Capra's movie could be viewed as a little 'lightweight' in comparison. Indeed, I believe It's A Wonderful Life was considered to be a flop when it first came out; and recognition/appreciation grew over time (rightly so). However, if it's not a suitable example we can scrub and replace with another one... ;)
 
Moedred

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
Bat-fans were justifiably frustrated...

indiana-jones.jpg
 
No Ticket

No Ticket

New member
I don't see how the two things have any kind of real connection. Indy 4 as we all know is not as good as most Indiana Jones fans wanted it to be. TDK, by comparison, was (to most Batman fans) exactly the kind of Batman movie they wanted.

And that's about all there is to it.

I personally love the character of Batman and perceived TDK as a wonderful representation of the character and blend of the comics to live action film with a fresh take on the Joker (whether you like it or not it was different). I also personally love the character of Indiana Jones and felt that KOTCS wasn't as true to the spirit of the original films which defined that character that I just said I love. So basically this paragraph is repeating the top paragraph. And once again we arrive at...

That's about all there is to it.
 
Stoo

Stoo

Well-known member
No Ticket said:
I don't see how the two things have any kind of real connection.
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Correct, No Ticket.(y) There is no connection other than both films were released the same year. (and were comics, blah, blah, what else is new) That said...Superhero fans have a VERY LOUD VOICE on da intranetses!(n)

One particular Ravenhead (WK4F) tried to champion the fact that Indiana Jones was the same as Batman because he had an alternate identity!!! What a bunch of bulls*t.:sick:
 
kongisking

kongisking

Active member
Stoo said:
Correct, No Ticket.(y) There is no connection other than both films were released the same year. (and were comics, blah, blah, what else is new) That said...Superhero fans have a VERY LOUD VOICE on da intranetses!(n)

One particular Ravenhead (WK4F) tried to champion the fact that Indiana Jones was the same as Batman because he had an alternate identity!!! What a bunch of bulls*t.:sick:
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Ahhhhh, I actually agree with WillKill. "Dr. Henry Jones Jr." and "Indiana Jones" are very much dual identities. "Dr. Jones" is Indy's Clark Kent, and "Indiana Jones" his Superman. Now, what needs to be asked is, which is the true Henry Jones Jr.? The hero or the scientist?
 
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Darth Vile

New member
I think it's a reasonable argument to state that perhaps the tone of TDK, given its overall popularity, underlines KOTCS (and the Indy movies in general) lightheartedness. In comparisson (regardless of wether one prefers one over the other), TDK seems a much more dark, somber and serious movie... and maybe it gives us a sense of what KOTCS should have been trying to achieve in terms of tone and scope???

Personally, I was more dissapointed by TDK than I was by KOTCS. I'm not arguing that TDK isn't a good movie (although I think it's inferior to Batman Begins and Tim Burton Batman), but for me it was far too overblown and pompous.
 
AndyLGR

AndyLGR

Active member
I think we're clutching at straws if we think the 'hate' against KOTCS was the purely the doing of Batman fans.

I aren't a fan of these comic book superhero movies at all, I can count on one hand the ones I thought were good, but I enjoyed TDK much more than KOTCS.

Even as a huge fan of Indy I was very disappointed with KOTCS. I tried to like it all but there was too much wrong with it for me, and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the hate was coming from movie goers who were fans of the original trilogy that felt let down by KOTCS.
 
Stoo

Stoo

Well-known member
kongisking said:
Ahhhhh, I actually agree with WillKill. "Dr. Henry Jones Jr." and "Indiana Jones" are very much dual identities. "Dr. Jones" is Indy's Clark Kent, and "Indiana Jones" his Superman. Now, what needs to be asked is, which is the true Henry Jones Jr.? The hero or the scientist?
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Love ya, Kong, but I gotta disagree.:)

When Indiana Jones wears his 'adventure outfit':

- People still call him, Dr. Jones. They don't call him, Whipman.
- He doesn't hide his face like many superheroes do.
- He doesn't have a secret lair.
- He doesn't have a logo on his chest.
- He wears normal clothes. He doesn't dress up in colourful, full-bodied underwear & prance around in Peter Pan boots.
- He doesn't speak with a different voice like the stupid Dark Knight does (nor talk to people who know his 'secret' with the dumb, alternate voice like the stupid Dark Knight does).
replican't said:
Simple - The Dark Knight towers above KoCS as a film. It's in a diffeent league altogether.
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Yes, it towers. "The Dark Knight" is a towering pile of sh*t.:sick:
AndyLGR said:
I think we're clutching at straws if we think the 'hate' against KOTCS was the purely the doing of Batman fans.
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Hi, Andy. Not "purely" but it's evident that they were a factor (here at the Raven in 2008, anyway, where the most prominent & vicious "Skull" bashers were rabid fans of The Clown Movie).
 
AndyLGR

AndyLGR

Active member
Stoo said:
Hi, Andy. Not "purely" but it's evident that they were a factor (here at the Raven in 2008, anyway, where the most prominent & vicious "Skull" bashers were rabid fans of The Clown Movie).
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True it was evident here when KOTCS came out, which I found odd on an Indy forum, where you would think the majority of fans would be die hard Indy fans. But the percentage of people on here in comparison to those bashing it all over the world is minute.

But is it being suggested that the Batman fans were bashing Indy as they saw it as competition? To me the 2 types of movie are different and I thought would not draw necessarily the same audience.
 
Stoo

Stoo

Well-known member
AndyLGR said:
True it was evident here when KOTCS came out, which I found odd on an Indy forum, where you would think the majority of fans would be die hard Indy fans. But the percentage of people on here in comparison to those bashing it all over the world is minute.
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You are probably right about the rest of the world but I don't read about the hate outside of The Raven, nor do I personally know anyone who passionately HATES the film to the degree of the superhero wankers. (There were folks who joined here simply in order to bash the new Indy movie while praising the new Batman movie and then they disappeared, never heard to be heard from again.) The general, movie-going public probably won't invest as much time & effort in displaying their disappointment to the level of someone who walks around wearing a Wolverine T-shirt.
AndyLGR said:
But is it being suggested that the Batman fans were bashing Indy as they saw it as competition?
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The competition issue is anybody's guess. Who knows? Whatever it is, the worst, vitriolic bashing seems to be deeply rooted within the comic-book-nerd demographic.
AndyLGR said:
To me the 2 types of movie are different and I thought would not draw necessarily the same audience.
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I absolutely agree with you, Andy. Indeed, they are different types of movies but (using The Raven as an indicator) it appears that they do draw the same audience. When I joined here in 2005, there was barely any discussion about superheroes (almost none at all). In the Off-Topic sections, the crowd was more interested in talking about adventure films, adventure novels and globetrotting.(y) AFTER "Skull" was released, the superhero content started spreading like wildfire to the point where this place was becoming a Batman board love-fest.(n) Since that time, many new members have joined and some of them ONLY talk about movies based on superhero comics.:rolleyes:
 
R

Raiders90

Well-known member
replican't said:
Simple - The Dark Knight towers above KoCS as a film. It's in a diffeent league altogether.
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It's clearly the best film ever and Heath Ledger was the best actor of all time :rolleyes:
 
R

Raiders90

Well-known member
Stoo said:
Love ya, Kong, but I gotta disagree.:)

When Indiana Jones wears his 'adventure outfit':

- People still call him, Dr. Jones. They don't call him, Whipman.
- He doesn't hide his face like many superheroes do.
- He doesn't have a secret lair.
- He doesn't have a logo on his chest.
- He wears normal clothes. He doesn't dress up in colourful, full-bodied underwear & prance around in Peter Pan boots.
- He doesn't speak with a different voice like the stupid Dark Knight does (nor talk to people who know his 'secret' with the dumb, alternate voice like the stupid Dark Knight does).
Yes, it towers. "The Dark Knight" is a towering pile of sh*t.:sick:
Hi, Andy. Not "purely" but it's evident that they were a factor (here at the Raven in 2008, anyway, where the most prominent & vicious "Skull" bashers were rabid fans of The Clown Movie).
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However, there is a bit of duality between his Henry Jones, Jr. persona and his adventurer persona. He takes pride in being an IMMINENT ARCHAEOLOGIST and as we've seen in ToD and KOTCS, he doesn't at all appreciate being branded a "grave robber". On campus and in professional life, he's a mild mannered, glasses wearing Professor who gets embarassed when a female student expresses an attraction to him. In the field, he's a rugged, unshaven, two fisted, cursing womanizer. It isn't quite as clear as Batman or Superman, but I would say there is a bit of difference between "Indy" and "Dr. Henry Jones, Jr."

He technically doesn't wear "normal clothes". While the leather jacket, khakis, shirt and whip aren't the same as a cape and whatnot, they're also not an ensemble that was common to the average 1930s American (Willie even comments on this, sarcastically asking if Indy is supposed to be a lion tamer). For whatever reason, Indy chooses to wear a VERY specific outfit when he goes out into the field or on an adventure, much like a superhero wears his/her costume when they are doing their thing.

Outside of the secret lair, he is in some ways like Zorro. Diego de La Vega, like Dr. Henry Jones, is the man you--at first glance--would least expect to be a dashing hero; You wouldn't expect the foppish de La Vega to be a suave and cunning swordsman; likewise, you wouldn't expect the tweed and bow tie wearing, neat and orderly professor to be a mercenary for hire archaeologist. Both don't conceal their voice. Both have 'help'--Indy had Marcus to make his adventures look like legitimate expeditions; Zorro has Bernardo.

Also, not all superheroes wear logos on their chest.

Like I said, there are SOME similarities; It is clear Lucas and Spielberg were going for a certain level of a Superhero-esque duality.
 
M

Mickiana

Well-known member
They are good points Raiders12345 but Indy's outfit seems to ride a fence in that yes it is recognisable because it is a bit unusual but as Deborah Nadoolman said (and she put it together), it was to be an 'every man's image'. And Indy's character was never meant to be a super hero, in fact he was a bit of an antihero with many dubious qualities, past and present. Everyone wanted to be like Indy and felt it was possible to be so. I can get around in Indy gear in many normal situations, but not so in a Superman's outfit, not that I have one of those.
 
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mikieson

New member
im not hip on all the "nerd" type things such as "this group hates this one" or "this is why this movie works and this one dont"..I dont keep up with any of the clubs or any such thing.

SO why in the world would batman fans hat an Indy movie? ALSO I love KOTCS..Seen it 2x in theater with my boys "they loved it"..and bought it day one and have seen it probably 20x..Its an incredible epic journey to me..love it..
 
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Darth Vile

New member
mikieson said:
im not hip on all the "nerd" type things such as "this group hates this one" or "this is why this movie works and this one dont"..I dont keep up with any of the clubs or any such thing.

SO why in the world would batman fans hat an Indy movie? ALSO I love KOTCS..Seen it 2x in theater with my boys "they loved it"..and bought it day one and have seen it probably 20x..Its an incredible epic journey to me..love it..
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I don't think they would per se. I'm a Batman fan as well as an Indy one. However, I think there is a certain demographic who are easily swayed by what appears to be 'hip', 'trendy' or otherwise... and I think it's that demographic we're really talking about rather than Batman or Indy fans (although of course it's not mutually exclusive).
 
kongisking

kongisking

Active member
Raiders112390 said:
However, there is a bit of duality between his Henry Jones, Jr. persona and his adventurer persona. He takes pride in being an IMMINENT ARCHAEOLOGIST and as we've seen in ToD and KOTCS, he doesn't at all appreciate being branded a "grave robber". On campus and in professional life, he's a mild mannered, glasses wearing Professor who gets embarassed when a female student expresses an attraction to him. In the field, he's a rugged, unshaven, two fisted, cursing womanizer. It isn't quite as clear as Batman or Superman, but I would say there is a bit of difference between "Indy" and "Dr. Henry Jones, Jr."

He technically doesn't wear "normal clothes". While the leather jacket, khakis, shirt and whip aren't the same as a cape and whatnot, they're also not an ensemble that was common to the average 1930s American (Willie even comments on this, sarcastically asking if Indy is supposed to be a lion tamer). For whatever reason, Indy chooses to wear a VERY specific outfit when he goes out into the field or on an adventure, much like a superhero wears his/her costume when they are doing their thing.

Outside of the secret lair, he is in some ways like Zorro. Diego de La Vega, like Dr. Henry Jones, is the man you--at first glance--would least expect to be a dashing hero; You wouldn't expect the foppish de La Vega to be a suave and cunning swordsman; likewise, you wouldn't expect the tweed and bow tie wearing, neat and orderly professor to be a mercenary for hire archaeologist. Both don't conceal their voice. Both have 'help'--Indy had Marcus to make his adventures look like legitimate expeditions; Zorro has Bernardo.

Also, not all superheroes wear logos on their chest.

Like I said, there are SOME similarities; It is clear Lucas and Spielberg were going for a certain level of a Superhero-esque duality.
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This is what I was trying to articulate to my buddy Stoo. You did a better job than I did.

And also Stoo, could you possibly tone down the Dark Knight hatred? Dare I say it's a little disheartening to see someone who champions the rights of a film like KOTCS so readily mocking a film like TDK? Or perhaps hypocritical? Don't worry, I'm something of a hypocrite myself, so I'm not judging you for it. But puh-leese, stop tearing one of my other favorite films a new a-hole!

Don't make me do Bambi-eyes, man! :D
 
Stoo

Stoo

Well-known member
Mickiana said:
They are good points Raiders12345...
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No, they aren't good points.(n) Will explain why later...but...one of the reasons includes what you said here:
Mickiana said:
...as Deborah Nadoolman said (and she put it together), it was to be an 'every man's image'. And Indy's character was never meant to be a super hero, in fact he was a bit of an antihero with many dubious qualities, past and present. Everyone wanted to be like Indy and felt it was possible to be so. I can get around in Indy gear in many normal situations, but not so in a Superman's outfit, not that I have one of those.
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Ha ha!:D This reminds me of a Halloween party back in college. An avid comic book dork showed up in a crotch-hugging, Spiderman costume that his sister made. His belly was hanging out and his whiskers were poking out of the mask...It was an embarassing, pathetic sight. The guy eventually took off the costume and changed into NORMAL clothes! Thank G_d.
mikieson said:
im not hip on all the "nerd" type things such as "this group hates this one" or "this is why this movie works and this one dont"
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Neither was I. Before joining The Raven. I wasn't hip to the "nerd" scene either. Stick around and you'll find out how geeky some members can be.:eek: (No offence intended!:cool:)
Darth Vile said:
I don't think they would per se. I'm a Batman fan as well as an Indy one. However, I think there is a certain demographic who are easily swayed by what appears to be 'hip', 'trendy' or otherwise... and I think it's that demographic we're really talking about rather than Batman or Indy fans (although of course it's not mutually exclusive).
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I partially agree with you, Darth. However, it seems that much of the vitriolic HATE (here at The Raven) comes from people in their late 20s and early 30s who also happen to be fans of comic book superheroes. (This is not a fact but simply my own observation.)
kongisking said:
This is what I was trying to articulate to my buddy Stoo. You did a better job than I did.
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Raiders191873491378913079873468 did a poor job. Will explain later...;)
kongisking said:
And also Stoo, could you possibly tone down the Dark Knight hatred? Dare I say it's a little disheartening to see someone who champions the rights of a film like KOTCS so readily mocking a film like TDK? Or perhaps hypocritical? Don't worry, I'm something of a hypocrite myself, so I'm not judging you for it. But puh-leese, stop tearing one of my other favorite films a new a-hole!

Don't make me do Bambi-eyes, man! :D
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Kong, your claim of hypocrisy is misplaced because I criticise Indy 4 as much as I champion it (and don't indulge in those areas very often). With all due respect to you, Sir Kong, I won't stop bashing the stupid Clown Movie because it is a pile of garbage. You mentioned TDK...Funny, because I used to buy blank TDK tape cassettes in the early '80s and they were crap, too! (Some things never change!:p)
 
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