What is canon?

dr.jones1986

Active member
Montana Smith said:
The removal of the old Indy bookends indicates that they weren't essential or integral to the series as Lucas now envisions it. (Though old Indy telling a ghost story does explain the odd Transylvania episode). Removing him from Indy canon, if only temporarily, increases the story options available for Indy V (and VI?)

You are right, they aren't necassary to get what Lucas wanted out of the show, which was edutainment mixed in with providing a background on Indy's life and how he became fascinated with the world. I am sure if they do a fifith Indy it will only further dismiss the old Indy bookends from the canon. Lucas after all never mentiones things being booted from the canon. We see it all the time though, especially with SW which has a much larger source of material. I mean this new Clone Wars show alone has totally decimated many novels, comics and video games from the SW canon. The prequels also did this as well. Lucas seems to have no problem doing this to his fans. I wish he could keep the franchises he created a little neater, but I guess everything he can slap a SW/IJ logo is making him money, even if it means one day it will no longer be considered part of the offical storyline. I know some SW authors have gotten sick of this. Karen Traviss who was one of the best SW authors will no longer write SW books because of Lucas's tinkering during the second season of Clone Wars which contradicted stuff she previously established.
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
It would be a really simple task to clear up the inconsistency issues between the YIJC, Films and Bantam novels. Just some suggestions to start:

-Peril at Delphi: Amend Indy's graduation date from Chicago in the book to June 1922; Have him start going to Sorbonne in the Fall of 1922.
-Fix dates after that to fit his new start date at Sorbonne.
-Amend the part in Peril at Delphi that he prefers skiing to baseball.
-Get rid of the marriage to Deidre since Lucas likely doesn't consider it canon. He could be ''with'' Deidre, just not married.
-Perhaps add references to Indy's war/spying service. Make it clear he served in the war; a token sentence or two on the subject is all that's required here.
-Have Indy or one of the Bantam novels mention Abner and/or Oxley offhand. Perhaps have Indy and Jack Shannon offhandedly mention Oxley and his obsession with Crystal Skulls; or amend McCoy's novels dealing with the Crystal Skull of Corzan to mention that an old pal of Indy's from college named Harold Oxley was obsessed with Crystal Skulls.
-Maybe amend Indy's and Deirdre's relationship and her death to late 1925-January 1926. If Deidre dies in January 1926, this allows for Indy to romance Marion later the same year (perhaps Fall 1926) while searching for the Staff of Ra. It gives him nearly all of 1926 for the Marion romance to happen.
-Change his interaction with Al Capone in 1927 so he and Capone recognize each other since they met in 1920 in the YIJC.
-Alter Indiana Jones and the Dinosaur Eggs to fit with the Temple of Doom sourcebook statement that he and Wu Human first met in 1914. Perhaps this is an inconsistency and they don't remember meeting then, though.
-Alter Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb to make it seem as though Indy and Wu Han know each other already; Emperor's Tomb as it stands has them meeting just before the events of ToD.
-Alter Indiana Jones and the Philosopher's Stone to mention that Belloq and Indy's first meeting was in 1922 in Iraq, not 1933.
-Change Honduras to British Honduras in 1933 (though this really isn't a major deal since we're never told WHICH Honduras Indy is accused of being a graverobber in in Temple of Doom)
-Fix the date of his "vision quest" to 1913 instead of 1919.
-Change Crystal Skull in McCoy novels to "Cursed Skull" or something, since according to Lucas, Indy never saw a crystal skull outside of one in the British Museum before 1957.
-Fix Indiana Jones and the White Witch's description of Indy as a professor of Medieval literature to make him a professor of Archaeology. It's a simple one word fix that clears up an inconsistency.
-Perhaps change Indy's courses at Sorbonne to be Archaeology rather than Linguistics. He could minor in Archaeology while in Chicago and major in Linguistics there, and major in Archaeology at Sorbonne. While we're told he studied under Ravenwood in Chicago, he's not mentioned as being Indy's only teacher there, or his only teacher of archaeology.

Really, the Bantam novels only conflict with other EU materials and the YIJC mostly, and KOTCS to a small degree. The main grey area is MacGregor's early Indy novels. However as far as I'm aware, none of the Bantam books conflict with the original trilogy at all.
 
Er.. are you suggesting we rewrite the novels Raiders? Or merely cover them in felt tip.

All I can say is: Poor Deirdre... having her marriage annuled like that. I don't care if we 'don't think' George considers it canon, hes probably never heard of her, he probably never heard of Sophia Hapgood either, but shes still part of my canon.
Nope. In my head Indy was indeed married to Deirdre, it was so brief and so tragic and proves the perfect rationale for him to make certain 'mistakes' when it comes to pursuing the far too young miss Ravenwood
 

IndyBr

Member
I'm with Jeremiah Jones.
There is no need to do some of the changes you've said with the novels.
Like change the Crystal Skull to "Cursed skull", Indy didn't said "I never went after Crystal Skulls before" in KOTCS, in my mind he just didn't mentioned the events to Mutt.

"Fix the date of his "vision quest" to 1913 instead of 1919."
That was fixed by the Ultimate Guide, no matter how out of place some of the events in that timeline are...

You just have to make some tinkering with the little inconsistencies. No need to do any major change, the exception being with Peril at Delphi.
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Your personal version of the Indy canon?

What is your personal version of what's canon in the Indyverse--I mean regardless of what's ''officially'' canon, what do you feel are the true items in Indy's history? And what level of "canonicity" do you put the various items in your personal Indy canon?

For me (all equally canon--the ''true'' chronology of Indy's life for me):
YIJC (1908-1920)
Young Indiana Jones and the Titanic Adventure (1912)
Bantham Novels (1922-1934)
Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1935)
Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark (1936)
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1912;1938)
Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis (1939)
Indiana Jones and the Army of the Dead (1943)
Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine (1947)
Indiana Jones and the Mystery of the Blues (1950 section)
Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (1957)

It's too bad they didn't set KotCS in 1958, just a year later. That would make exactly 50 years of worth of adventures.
 

Junior Jones

New member
Why just Titanic Adventure and not the rest of the Young Indy book series?



I'm pretty inclusive. Pretty much everything official, plus my own fanfics. A lot of stuff requires creative explanations or minor corrections to maintain consistency, but that's part of the fun.
 

michael

Well-known member
Young Indiana Jones Chronicles
Bantham Novels
Indiana Jones Adventures Volume 1
Temple of Doom
Raiders of the Lost Ark
Last Crusade
Fate of Atlantis
Infernal Machine
Mystery of the Blues 1950 section
Kingdom of the Crystal Skull


*few notes:

I was close to not putting the Bantham Novels. I'm not familiar with most of them, but from what I have read, they fill in the years with enough decent information on the character regardless of the plots/stories.

I left out most of the comics because they are just too campy and pulpy, but that's not to say they are bad/not entertaining.

Also left out Emperor's Tomb, nothing against the game itself, I just found the whole leading into Temple of Doom Shanghai portion to be a cheap gimmick.

For the 4 major films, I also include the other bits of knowledge found in the novels/comics.

I have watched Infernal Machine playthroughs (I have not played the game myself) but there is a nice gap in-between the years for that sort of story to take place, it fits well.

Only put in Indiana Jones Adventures Volume 1 because I didn't really like Volume 2, just personal preference here.

Anything that Lucas considers canon, is canon though, we all have to agree to that, the rest is plug'n play for your own pleasure.
 

Face_Melt

Well-known member
I would love to propose the question to the forum here. Is the Young Indy series canon?

I watched an episode today featuring Young Indy at age 8 running from a snake and screaming “I hate snakes!”

This seemed odd to me. I thought his fear of snakes came from falling into the snake pit at age 13 in the prologue of The Last Crusade?

The series was cancelled due to low viewership, and Lucas edited and tinkered with the series a few times - not only by editing them into 90 minute made for TV movies and dropping the Old Indy segments. So even IF the show is canon, which version?

Prior to The Force Awakens being released Lucasfilm clarified the canon of the franchise. Do you think something similar will occur with Indy?

To me personally the Young Indy series seemed like the Ewok movies. Live action content Lucas was personally involved in but more of a testing ground on what could work within the confines of a TV level budget more so than what was being seriously considered content made to be canon with the films.

Thoughts?
 

InexorableTash

Active member
The true test of canon is: "Will future contributors to the franchise be beholden to it?"

I rather imagine that Lucasfilm/Disney won't do enough going forward with Indy for it to really matter. KOTCS had a nice reference to YIJ but that's the only true data point we have.

If the franchise is reinvigorated somehow, it's also a distinct fandom from the obsessive and rich universe of Star Wars - it's about short, stand-alone escapist adventures with a relatable character, rather than epic fantasy world-building and stories told across generations and a whole galaxy. The stakes for "canon" are just so much lower that... I don't think anyone should care.

All that said... the current generation of franchise continuers - from Star Wars to, uh, Marvel to, uh, Star Trek (come on, better examples?) seem to be made from the obsessive nerd cloth that we are. They go to great lengths to drop references to past media in, whether truly warranted or not. So maybe, if someone does pick up the reigns, they'll toss some YIJ easter eggs in, to appease us silly fans.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
KOTCS had a nice reference to YIJ but that's the only true data point we have.
Which they probably wouldn't have thrown in if they didn't intend to include the show in the canon*. So while it's just a single point, it does speak volumes.

*Or at least the parts that precede KotCS on the timeline.
 

Face_Melt

Well-known member
Which they probably wouldn't have thrown in if they didn't intend to include the show in the canon*. So while it's just a single point, it does speak volumes.

*Or at least the parts that precede KotCS on the timeline.
See to me that just means it’s canon that at some point Indy rode with Pancho Villa. It doesn’t mean everything from that series is canon, or even his adventure with Pancho Villa is canon exactly like if was told on that episode.

Star Wars shows and movies will sometimes have references to old EU stuff, that doesn’t mean those things are now considered canon though.
 

emtiem

Well-known member
I think it is canon if they wanted to make reference to things which happened when Indy was growing up, but I think if they decided to make a TV show or something set in the 20s they would and should feel free to overwrite it.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
What George Lucas considered canon depended on his mood on any particular day. He constantly revised the "canon" status of Star Wars and even Indiana Jones (although to a much lesser extent.) He tinkered with the canon of YIJC by removing George Hall, at a minimum.

Now it's out of his hands and I think we can say with 100% certainty Disney doesn't consider YIJC canon and it's highly unlikely it'll ever be referred to again in any future Indy. If there is new Indy content beyond DoD it's more than a safe bet that, just as with the SW EU, they'll overwrite it as needed.
 

Ender

Well-known member
The Clone Wars was made by Lucas so it stayed canon. I think the same logic applies with Young Indy. The difference is, like InexorableTash said, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of a series of standalone adventures, and it's unlikely anything more will ever come of the series at this point in any significant capacity.
 

Face_Melt

Well-known member
The Clone Wars was made by Lucas so it stayed canon. I think the same logic applies with Young Indy. The difference is, like InexorableTash said, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of a series of standalone adventures, and it's unlikely anything more will ever come of the series at this point in any significant capacity.
The Ewok movies were also made by George, they are not canon. I would lump Young Indy in with those over The Clone Wars…
 

Ender

Well-known member
Oh damn, I can't believe I forgot about those! You have a point, however, I think Young Indy is much more tied to its source material through its shared protagonist, in much the same way TCW was. It was also a far bigger commitment than two measly TV movies.
 
I remember watching the pilot episode when it debuted here and turning it off after some time. I decided the show had nothing to do with what made the Indiana Jones movies appeal to me and, as such, could be completely disregarded. I was not bound to them..

That said, I don't really believe in "canon". As far as Star Wars goes, every sequel and prequel is merely a "What If?". So in Star Wars, Darth Vader is not Luke's father but the next movies asks "what if?". In Empire, Luke and Leia are not related but the next movies asks "what if?". And so on.

This is probably not a very helpful contribution to the topic so I'll split. Sorry!
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
I think it is canon if they wanted to make reference to things which happened when Indy was growing up, but I think if they decided to make a TV show or something set in the 20s they would and should feel free to overwrite it.

Interesting, as the Young Indy series goes up to 1920 only. Leaving 15 years of playground.
 
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