Did I miss something? (in Last Crusade)

Montana Smith · Jan 31, 2011

Darth Vile said:
Unless it is something significant to the story/experience, I'd rather deleted scenes/alternate takes were just left separate and standalone. As I don't believe there are any significant cuts to any of the Indy movies (although I stand to be corrected) there doesn't seem to be that much value in adding anything back into the actual movie. I'd much rather get an isolated score track or sound effects track rather than branching.

Although this is going way off topic, I'd like the deleted scene of Sallah's intended execution to be put into a version of ROTLA - for reasons that I've discussed in other threads. That could make for interesting results, and throw the cat among the pigeons.

The choice, though, would be as before: the customer can decide how they want to see it. Either isolated, or at the originally conceived point in the movie.

Darth Vile said:
But we're likely to get neither deleted scenes or isolated score tracks...

That was my initial thought in response to michael's question. But instead of heaping on more negativity, I went for hope instead!

From the cynical marketing angle I can expect that the blu-rays will come out with little in the way of extras. Many fans will stump up the initial inflated cost that most DVDs and blu-rays command on release. Then a few months later they'll be re-released as super-duper special collectors' versions with extra discs.

Or they could be generous and release the best deal first.

Lance Quazar · Jan 31, 2011

Montana Smith said:
A cut scene of 1930s Indy and his dad arriving by train would be more interesting and relevant than most of the scenes they decided to leave in KOTCS.

Once you've seen a film once pacing is no longer an issue, since you know what's going to happen anyway. Second time round you can take a more leisurely jaunt through, soaking up as much atmosphere and screen time as there is to give. Unless you're just in a hurry to get through it, as the really self-indulgent slog KOTCS has become to me.

It made no sense for a theatrical release, but I'm looking at DVD options, where a click of a button inserts the cuts.

Cut scenes which have no effect on the story (which don't contradict what was left in) are like having footnotes in a book. They're there if you want to know more, but you can skip them if you want to.

Yes, but something Lucas never understood about his endless revisionism is that many people WILL be seeing these DVD versions for the first time.

Throwing a crappy CGI Jabba into "Star Wars", for instance, doesn't just ruin that one scene, but ruins all the fun of the characters' reveal (which is teased for the two previous films) once you finally DO get to "Jedi."

As for Spielberg, he is way too much of a purist regarding the art of storytelling and the role of the director to ever allow the audience to re-edit his movies on the fly (which is what you're suggesting with the ability to toggle between various cuts of the film.)

Heck, IIRC, he never does deleted scenes or director's cuts (or even director's commentary) because he believes there should be only ONE definitive version of his movies. He believes the audience is being told a story by the filmmakers and they should sit down, shut up and pay attention and not second guess that process.

Pale Horse · Jan 31, 2011

Darth Vile said:
Not sure what dialogue was supposed to take place at the train station (I'm assuming just a bit of exposition)?

Dad
They want to film another one, without me?

Son
That's the rumor

Dad
Bollocks!...It'll never work

Montana Smith · Jan 31, 2011

Pale Horse said:
Dad
They want to film another one, without me?

Son
That's the rumor

Dad
Bollocks!...It'll never work

Son

Never say never again, eh, dad?

Dad

Well don't coming running back to me when it blows up in your face.

Wedge Antilles · Jan 31, 2011

Ok, that would have been helpful if they'd kept that scene in the movie. So do we know where the "seagull beach" is? And is Iskenderun in Greece or Turkey?

Darth Vile · Jan 31, 2011

Lance Quazar said:
Yes, but something Lucas never understood about his endless revisionism is that many people WILL be seeing these DVD versions for the first time.

Throwing a crappy CGI Jabba into "Star Wars", for instance, doesn't just ruin that one scene, but ruins all the fun of the characters' reveal (which is teased for the two previous films) once you finally DO get to "Jedi."

I think Lucas understands that point completely... i.e. he wants whatever version he currently sees as being "definitive" to indeed be the "definitive" one that's available on DVD, blu ray etc. etc. I guess that's his prerogative as an 'artist' and as the owner. For me, it's largely irrelevant as I've already experienced watching the movie for the first time.

As far as the Jabba scene is concerned, personally I agree with you... it adds nothing (apart from an early appearance from Jabba and Boba) and probably takes away some of the fun of the reveal come ROTJ (although that's kind of blown anyway due to The Phantom Menace). However, the scene (sans Boba) was originally intended for the first movie, so there is some justification for wanting it to be added (even if we think the movie works better without it)... which leads me to believe that the mystery around who/what Jabba was occurred by default and not design.

Montana Smith · Jan 31, 2011

Wedge Antilles said:
Ok, that would have been helpful if they'd kept that scene in the movie. So do we know where the "seagull beach" is? And is Iskenderun in Greece or Turkey?

Iskenderun is on the coast of Turkey:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/İskenderun

İskenderun (formerly in Greek Ἀλεξανδρέττα, Alexandretta; in Arabic الإسكندرون, al-ʼIskandarūn), is a city and district in the province of Hatay on the Mediterranean coast of Turkey. The city is part of Çukurova, a geographical, economical and cultural region. The mayor is Yusuf Hamit Civelek (CHP).

Republic of Hatay

Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the First World War most of Hatay including İskenderun was occupied by French troops and in 1921 was established as the autonomous Sanjak of Alexandretta within French-controlled Syria. This led to the foundation of the Republic of Hatay. In 1939, the Republic of Hatay joined with the Republic of Turkey, after a referendum. See Hatay Province for a detailed history of this era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatay_State

Hatay State

Hatay State (Turkish: Hatay Devleti, Arabic: لواء الإسكندرونة‎), also known informally as the Republic of Hatay, was a transitional political entity that formally existed from September 7, 1938 to June 29, 1939 in the territory of the Sanjak of Alexandretta of the French Mandate of Syria. The state was annexed by the Republic of Turkey on June 29, 1939 and transformed into the Hatay Province (excluding districts of Erzin, Dörtyol and Hassa) of Turkey.

History

Formerly part of the Aleppo province of the Ottoman Empire, the Sanjak of Alexandretta was occupied by France at the end of World War I and constituted part of the French Mandate of Syria.

The Sandjak of Alexandretta was an autonomous sandjak (department) from 1921 to 1923, as a result of the French-Turkish treaty of 20 October 1921, considering the presence of an important Turkish community alongside with Arab and Armenian ones. Then it was attached to the State of Aleppo, then in 1925 it was directly attached to the State of Syria, still with a special administrative status.[1]

Turkey under Mustafa Kemal Atatürk refused to accept the Sanjak of Alexandretta to be part of the Mandate and, in a speech on 15 March 1923 in Adana, claimed, probably in projection to the Turkish Historical Thesis, that it was "a Turkish homeland for forty centuries" that "can’t be a captive at the hands of enemy".[2] Turkish politics aimed at incorporating the Sanjak of Alexandretta when the French mandate of Syria would expire in 1935. Local Turks initiated reforms in the style of Atatürk's, formed various organisations and institutions in order to promote the idea of union with Turkey.

In 1936, the elections returned two Syrian independentist (favoring the independence of Syria from France) MP's in the sandjak, and this prompted communal riots as well as passionate articles in the Turkish and Syrian press. Following this, and an intervention of the League of Nations, a new statute came into power in November 1937, the sandjak becoming 'distinct but not separated' from Syria on the diplomatic level, linked to both France and Turkey for defence matters.[1]

In 1936 Atatürk coined the name Hatay for the Sanjak of Alexandretta, and raised the issue of Hatay (Turkish: Hatay meselesi) at the League of Nations. On behalf of the League of Nations, representatives of France, United Kingdom, The Netherlands, Belgium and Turkey prepared a constitution for Hatay which established it as an autonomous sanjak within Syria. Despite some inter-ethnic violence, in the midst of 1938 an election to the local legislative assembly was conducted and it was convoked.

1938 elections

In 1938, the Turkish military went into the Syrian province and expelled most of its Arab and Armenian inhabitants.[3] Before this, Alawi Arabs and Armenians were the majority of Alexandrettas population.[3] Turkey also crossed tens of thousands of Turks into Alexandretta.[4]

Proclamation of independence

On September 6, 1938 the constitution was adopted. It resembled strongly the constitution created by the League of Nations for the Sanjak of Alexandretta. The constitution defined the territory as an independent state called "Hatay Devleti" (Hatay State), divided into four districts (Antakya, İskenderun, Ordu (Yayladağı), Kırıkhan and Reyhaniye (Reyhanlı). Turkish was declared the state language, while French retained a status as a secondary language. Schools teaching Arabic could continue to do so.

On September 7, 1938 the Hatay adopted a flag sketched by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. On February 6, 1939 the Hatay legislative adopted all Turkish laws, and on March 13, 1939 made the Turkish lira the official currency.

In popular culture

The State of Hatay was featured as one of the main locations in the 1989 film Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. In the film, the Holy Grail is discovered in an ancient temple within Hatay, although the location used for the external shots of the temple is the Treasury of the ancient city of Petra, actually located in Jordan.

Aside from the name and location, most of the detail of Hatay within the movie is fictionalised - the flag is incorrect, and the state is shown as a monarchy with a Sultan.

Stoo · Feb 1, 2011

Wikipedia said:
Hatay State (Turkish: Hatay Devleti, Arabic: لواء الإسكندرونة‎), also known informally as the Republic of Hatay, was a transitional political entity that formally existed from September 7, 1938 to June 29, 1939 in the territory of the Sanjak of Alexandretta of the French Mandate of Syria. The state was annexed by the Republic of Turkey on June 29, 1939 and transformed into the Hatay Province (excluding districts of Erzin, Dörtyol and Hassa) of Turkey.

Looking at a satellite image of the area, the closest desert region to the former Republic of Hatay is in Syria which leads me to believe that the Canyon of the Crescent Moon would be located there, rather than in present-day Turkey (unless the Syrian border has changed since 1938).

Yes? No?

Opinions?

Montana Smith · Feb 1, 2011

Stoo said:
Looking at a satellite image of the area, the closest desert region to the former Republic of Hatay is in Syria which leads me to believe that the Canyon of the Crescent Moon would be located there, rather than in present-day Turkey (unless the Syrian border has changed since 1938).

Yes? No? Opinions?

I think you chose wisely.

My opinions? You'll no doubt guess the angle I'll look at this from.

I think the creators were painting in broad brush strokes, sometimes with a really wide broomstick. Like painting The Raven into Nepal. Our history and geopolitics appears only as an inspiration for a world we recognize, yet cannot exactly pinpoint. They took the inspiration, and they ran with it, just like Indy, making it up as they went along.

To me that's the essence of pulp, where story takes precedence over facts. Sometimes that can be infuriating, when things appear like they'll fit nicely into what we know or discover, or what we suspect they were hinting at. Then, just as we think we have them sussed, they pull the magic carpet out from under our feet!

Through ignorance and design they've bent technology, borders and history. Thankfully they kept the spirit and style of the age, but it retains an almost dreamlike quality of fantasy. The Hatay Indy knew either spread across Syrian territory, or they crossed the border in the desert.

Stoo · Feb 1, 2011

Montana, I KNEW that you were going to say this and you KNOW that I agree with you which is why I SHOULD have added to my post:

(unless the Syrian border has changed since 1938 or Hatay had a desert in The Weird and Wacky World of Indiana Jones).

Montana Smith · Feb 1, 2011

Stoo said:
Montana, I KNEW that you were going to say this and you KNOW that I agree with you which is why I SHOULD have added to my post:

(unless the Syrian border has changed since 1938 or Hatay had a desert in The Weird and Wacky World of Indiana Jones).

I KNEW you would agree with me. And you KNEW that I WOULDN'T be able to stop myself from writing it!

Jeremiah Jones · Feb 1, 2011

I've been to iskenderun actually, well, passed through it on a bus anyway, it sits in a pretty barren coastal strip with the mountains sloping down to meet it in what I remember to be a pretty dramatic fashion, beyond the mountains, the Wadi Araba, the great valley that flows all the way down to Akaba, I've always imagined the canyon of the crescent moon to be beyond that, but then, I guess it has to be within Hatay's borders, among the mountains? Maybe.

Course in reality its a pretty small place, not so much excitement

michael · Feb 2, 2011

Is there a museum there? :whip:

Stoo · Feb 3, 2011

Jeremiah Jones said:
I've been to iskenderun actually, well, passed through it on a bus anyway, it sits in a pretty barren coastal strip with the mountains sloping down to meet it in what I remember to be a pretty dramatic fashion, beyond the mountains, the Wadi Araba, the great valley that flows all the way down to Akaba, I've always imagined the canyon of the crescent moon to be beyond that, but then, I guess it has to be within Hatay's borders, among the mountains? Maybe.

Course in reality its a pretty small place, not so much excitement

Jeremiah is back in the house! :hat:

Nice to hear from someone who has actually been there and I envy you.

The valley you speak of, Wadi Araba, travels through Syria on it's way to Akaba in Jordan, so that's a good of a guess as any but I'm throwing the possible Syria location out the window because...

From the film:
Donovan: "However, Your Highness, we would not think of crossing your soil without your permission, nor of removing the Grail from your border without suitable compensation."

I've found references to "the horseshoe of Elma Dagh" which is supposedly a mountain pass somewhere north of Iskenderun/Alexandretta. Do you know anything about this, Jeremiah? It sounds like a certain Canyon of the Crescent Moon. Trouble is I can't find it on a map.

(Apparently, Iskenderun didn't get it's name until 1939 when Hatay was amalgamated into Turkey, a year after the events in "Last Crusade". Before that, it was still called Alexandretta. If that is correct, then we chalk up yet another hisorical/geographical inconsistency within the Indy films.)

Lance Quazar · Feb 3, 2011

Stoo said:
(Apparently, Iskenderun didn't get it's name until 1939 when Hatay was amalgamated into Turkey, a year after the events in "Last Crusade". Before that, it was still called Alexandretta. If that is correct, then we chalk up yet another hisorical/geographical inconsistency within the Indy films.)

But Iskenderun simply means Alexandretta in Arabic, it's really the same name, so you're saying no one ever actually called it Iskenderun until 1939?

The line of dialogue is misleading/incorrect either way, I suppose.

Stoo · Feb 3, 2011

Lance Quazar said:
But Iskenderun simply means Alexandretta in Arabic, it's really the same name, so you're saying no one ever actually called it Iskenderun until 1939?

No, I'm not saying that at all, Lance. I didn't know that it meant the same thing in Arabic so thanks for that bit of info. :hat:

However...the sign at the train station in the film clearly says "Iskenderun". Do you think it would have been that way in 1938 (AND written in English)?

A similar Turkish case is Istanbul which roughly means, "in the city". Constantinople was called 'Istanbul' by the locals for a long time but around c.1930 or so, the use of the name, Constantinople, became forbidden.

Lance Quazar said:
The line of dialogue is misleading/incorrect either way, I suppose.

Which line of dialogue?

Lance Quazar · Feb 3, 2011

Stoo said:
Which line of dialogue?

"The present city of Iskenderun is built on its ruins."

Not really correct, since it's really just a translation of the same name and the city was continuously occupied the entire time.

It would be like saying, "Ah, oui. Les Etats Unis is built on the ruins of the United States, n'est pas?"

Montana Smith · Feb 3, 2011

It's apparent throughout the four movies that the creators didn't intend to do much research on history and geography. They took some bare facts, and some half-remembered facts, and they put them on paper and never looked back.

Indy exists in one of those Back to the Future pasts. Someone like Marty McFly's been back there and tinkered with a few things, and it's changed the passage of history. In some cases technology advanced faster in Indy's timeline - the MP40, for example, was four years' ahead of schedule; at Pankot the Hindus started eating meat; for some reason Nepal decided not to ban foreigners; and the borders of Hatay extended further into Syria (well Jordan's Petra even appeared inside their border

)

Willie gave the game away in TOD when she sang, "Anything Goes." (!)

Wedge Antilles · Feb 3, 2011

Montana Smith said:
at Pankot the Hindus started eating meat; (!)

Actually, I heard that in the Temple of Doom novelization that Indy noticed that since they ate meat that they were not really Hindus.

Montana Smith · Feb 3, 2011

Wedge Antilles said:
Actually, I heard that in the Temple of Doom novelization that Indy noticed that since they ate meat that they were not really Hindus.

Yes that's been discussed here a few times.

What I meant by referring to it here was that the creators of this series went for unlikely events - in this case it was to create a strange atmosphere. These Thuggees are unique to Indy's world, and bear little relation to those that we can read about in our own history. (And there's a thread dedicated to those differences, too).

When we look at Indiana Jones with a cursory glance we see things we recognize. But if we take the time to look closer we start to see that things just aren't right.

It's like Dorothy waking up after the tornado:

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more. We must be over the rainbow!"

The pulp world is either the world as related through tall stories, by those who claim to have lived through it, or it really does occupy an alternate reality!

Did I miss something? (in Last Crusade)

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