The Exodus

"I have nothing to gain by attacks on your character"
You're right... you don't... so why keep trying?

"You believe your religion (namely, evolution)"
Evolution is not religion.... Evolution is based on observable, testable, verifiable fact.... religion, or faith if you will, requires and thrives on the absence of fact.... As Richard Dawkins puts it, "Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence."

"it dictates your paradigm of interpretive(sic.) evidence"
Not in the least....

"most viewpoints operate under the premise that the Exodus crossing..."
... never happened at all. If you really want to talk about MOST (scholarly... not he best choice of words) viewpoints.....

"under the premise that I believe the Bible to be true"
Maybe that's the stumbling block right there....

Cause belief alone doesn't make fact..... Otherwise I'd be able to fly.... and I'd have a MUCH bigger.... wallet... ya... wallet.... than I currently do....
 

Doc Savage

New member
ClintonHammond said:
You're right... you don't... so why keep trying?
Never did. You seem to take delight in implying insult where none is intended.

ClintonHammond said:
Evolution is not religion.... Evolution is based on observable, testable, verifiable fact...
No one has ever observed the change of one species to another. No one saw the rocks rained on, forming a macromolecule, resulting in a single-celled ancestor. No one's seen a chimp and an orang have a bouncing baby boy. Neanderthal man had arthritis. Java man was a hoax. Piltdown man was a pig's tooth. Evolution has more holes than a box of donuts. It is a leap of faith.

ClintonHammond said:
Cause belief alone doesn't make fact..... Otherwise I'd be able to fly.... and I'd have a MUCH bigger.... wallet... ya... wallet.... than I currently do....
I could relate miraculous fact after miraculous fact that simple belief produced in my life. So I have no problem believing in a sea split by the wind.
 
"No one has ever observed the change of one species to another"
Then I'm afraid you must know precious little about the scientific research into macroevolution and Common Descent..... I suggest you might want to do quite a bit of reading to catch up....

From http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ for example....

"The worldwide scientific research community from over the past 140 years has discovered that no known hypothesis other than universal common descent can account scientifically for the unity, diversity, and patterns of terrestrial life. This hypothesis has been verified and corroborated so extensively that it is currently accepted as fact by the overwhelming majority of professional researchers in the biological and geological sciences (AAAS 1990; NAS 2003; NCSE 2003; Working Group 2001). No alternate explanations compete scientifically with common descent, primarily for four main reasons: (1) so many of the predictions of common descent have been confirmed from independent areas of science, (2) no significant contradictory evidence has yet been found, (3) competing possibilities have been contradicted by enormous amounts of scientific data, and (4) many other explanations are untestable, though they may be trivially consistent with biological data."

"Neanderthal man"
That Neandertal Man suffered in his old age, from maladies similar to those suffered by homo sapiens, is supporting evidence of how close to being us he really was....

"Java man was a hoax"
Based on what evidence?

"Piltdown man"
A hoax... and it's again, a testament ot the attention to detail of evolutionary scientists that it only took 40 or so years to discover the problem, and rewrite the findings....

"I could relate miraculous fact after miraculous fact"
Anecdotes aren't facts
 

Doc Savage

New member
temple of john said:
I'm not sure if anyone got a chance to watch that show again last night, "Exodus, Decoded" on the history channel.
I'm going to have to invade my sister-in-law's cable. We cut ours off. I miss the History Channel, but I don't miss the hours and hours I'd spend watching it.

temple of john said:
Though I feel some of the "Facts" they present are more for entertainment value rather than for history' sake, it's still a fun show.
Unfortunately, ToJ, that's standard fare for these things. It's almost 'let's get them to watch our station with a series of undelivered promises.' Guess we'll have to trek on over there ourselves.
 

Doc Savage

New member
temple of john said:
Doc, it's a good show. They talk quite a bit about the Ark of the Convenant towards the end and all throughout the 2 hour long show, the graphics are awesome. I might actually but that on DVD if I can find it.
I'll have to check it out. Any idea when it airs next?
 
"Though I feel some of the "Facts" they present are more for entertainment value rather than for history' sake"

That's unfortunate....

I'm still waiting, however, to hear what evidence there is that Java Man was a 'hoax'....

Or why Neanderthal suffering from arthritis excludes him from his place in the evolutionary record....
 

Doc Savage

New member
temple of john said:
Did you end up watching the show Doc?

I have it recorded, and hope to watch it tonight. My two-year-old daughter kept me preoccupied. To link it to the 'Movies That Suck' thread, we watched The NeverEnding Story.
;)
 
"Just gathering my thoughts"

Uhuh.... sure.... So you tried to claim that Java man was a hoax without first having any evidence to back it up?

This just gets better and better
 

Doc Savage

New member
ClintonHammond said:
"Just gathering my thoughts"

Uhuh.... sure.... So you tried to claim that Java man was a hoax without first having any evidence to back it up?

This just gets better and better

No..just want to be accurate in citing names, dates, and sources. Quit acting like a schoolyard bully.
 

Doc Savage

New member
ClintonHammond said:
You aren't going to find any reputable names dates or sources to support the claim that Java man was a hoax....

So don't waste your time

You, of all people, should know what happens when you assume.
 
I'm not assuming in the least

I am simply confident that any 'evidence' you provide will undoubtedly prove as easy to dismiss as all the other 'evidence' you have provided so far.
 
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Doc Savage

New member
To coin a phrase, I've not yet begun to fight. Be patient, gentlemen...and remember The Karate Kid.
:p
 
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When one 'coins a phrase', one invents a saying of one's own... One doesn't 'coin a phrase' by quoting what someone else has already said.

Unless you're using it ironically to introduce a banal statement or clichè....
 

00Kevin

Indyfan
I watched the show on it's premeir 2 weeks ago, and let me just say... that was the best program I've ever seen on History channel, or any channel
 

Doc Savage

New member
ClintonHammond said:
When one 'coins a phrase', one invents a saying of one's own... One doesn't 'coin a phrase' by quoting what someone else has already said.
I stand corrected...on that issue only.

To begin with Java man, "discovered" 1892 by Eugene Dubois. He sails to Java and finds what is obviously a gibbon's skullcap (even he admitted that the skull was a genus of gibbon). One year later, and fifty feet from the original find, he "discovers" a femur exactly like modern man. Sometime later, he finds several large teeth. From this "dramatic find" we have what was originally named Pithecanthropus erectus, or Java man.

Interestingly enough, he waited thirty years to reveal that he also found
two perfectly human skulls in the same area and level of gravel deposit. As well, Brace and Montagu in 1977 state that 'Curiously, Dubois waited until the 1920's to also reveal he had found four more human thigh bones in the area where his Pithecanthropus material had been discovered.'*

More to come...
*Brace, C. L. and Montagu, A., 1977. Human Evolution, Second Edition, Chicago University Press, pp. 204-205.
 
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