Ancient aliens

Montana Smith said:

He deserves his own thread, if there isn't already one.

His place in this thread thread is cursory, in regard to altered states of reality or perception, the differing ways of looking at ourselves and our collective history.

Click to expand...

I think there is a Cronenberg thread...

But if not, I'll let you have the honor of creating one.

time-raider said:

Im sure this has probably been brought up before, but the history channel is doing a bunch of new episodes on the topic. So I thought I might bring it up. Personally I believe there are parts of the theory that make since and others that don't.
Im personally interested in some of the historical stories, myths, legends, and folklores that many different cultures have that point towards the same origin.
thoughts anyone?

Click to expand...

Hi, time-raider. Do you remember the show from the late '70s called, "In Search Of" hosted by Leonard Nimoy? The 1st season in '77 had an episode about Ancient Aviators. In case you haven't seen it, the whole thing has been uploaded on YouTube in 3 parts. (For me, hearing the theme tune again is like travelling back in time!)

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Jqzkk_i9US0?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Jqzkk_i9US0?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Resident Alien said:

Do a search and you shall see that we used to have a crackpot who called himself a protege of Von Daniken who would post here. This nut would go on some of these very shows you mentioned and spout off his wild-eyed ideas. And if you tried to reason with him he'd dismiss all evidence, instead he'd resort to begging the question or confusing the burden of proof, among other fallacious arguments.

Luckily after the fervor that was the 4th atrocity committed on the name of Indiana Jones died down a bit, so too did this guy's posts. He hasn't been around here in awhile. Frankly, I like it like that.

Click to expand...

Sound like anyone else you know?

Stoo said:

Sound like anyone else you know?

Click to expand...

I'd forgotten we had this discussion before that other thread. I clicked on this one thinking it was Matt deMille's, and found myself disoriented for a few moments.

Well, I suppose you can't have too mcuh of a good thing!

Montana Smith said:

I'd forgotten we had this discussion before that other thread. I clicked on this one thinking it was Matt deMille's, and found myself disoriented for a few moments.

Click to expand...

Same thing! It was really strange.


I made some damn good points in this thread, too. Wonder why I stopped posting in it. My failure to respond makes it look as if FedoraHead had bested me, and that simply wasn't the case.


*Le Sigh*

ResidentAlien said:

Same thing! It was really strange.


I made some damn good points in this thread, too. Wonder why I stopped posting in it. My failure to respond makes it look as if FedoraHead had bested me, and that simply wasn't the case.


*Le Sigh*

Click to expand...

I reckon the only time you got bested, was when you were running under the alias of "Roger", and those pirates abducted you, forced you to work as cabin boy and constantly threatened your Johnson.

On all other occasions you just refused to be bested!

*C'est la vie*

Montana Smith said:

I reckon the only time you got bested, was when you were running under the alias of "Roger", and those pirates abducted you, forced you to work as cabin boy and constantly threatened your Johnson.

On all other occasions you just refused to be bested!

*C'est la vie*

Click to expand...

Good call. Though in the end, I maintained my dignity and saved my Johnson. So seems I didn't get bested after all!

ResidentAlien said:

Good call. Though in the end, I maintained my dignity and saved my Johnson. So seems I didn't get bested after all!

Click to expand...

Under normal circumstances, as a skeptic, I would ask to see the evidence, but in this case I'll take your word on it!

Montana Smith said:

Under normal circumstances, as a skeptic, I would ask to see the evidence, but in this case I'll take your word on it!

Click to expand...

No, no. You're right. We've told Matt and we'd be a hypocrite not to follow in our own advice. Evidence is definitely necessary.

*zip*

ResidentAlien said:

No, no. You're right. We've told Matt and we'd be a hypocrite not to follow in our own advice. Evidence is definitely necessary.

*zip*

Click to expand...

*le preuve*

Montana Smith said:

*le preuve*

Click to expand...

ET Phone Home!


So aliens are real!

ResidentAlien said:

So what?

Occam's razor dictates that we look toward the most simple explanation.

Click to expand...

Conventional science says an object can't be in two places at the same time. But the science of quantum physics says it can. Science explains lots of things as long as you don't look too deeply into them.

InexorableTash said:

What science gives you is the framework for learning about the universe by making predictions. It's like going down a checklist before launching a rocket - sure, you can get by without it, but it is really really useful and avoids making silly and/or fatal mistakes.

Click to expand...

A botanist is a scientist. Many things about plants are understand and make sense. But if a quantum physicist told the botanist that a subatomic particle in the plant can vibrate and affect a subatomic particle in another galaxy the botanist may not want to hear it as it doesn't fit with the checklist.

Stoo said:

Do you remember the show from the late '70s called, "In Search Of" hosted by Leonard Nimoy? The 1st season in '77 had an episode about Ancient Aviators. In case you haven't seen it, the whole thing has been uploaded on YouTube in 3 parts. (For me, hearing the theme tune again is like travelling back in time!)

Click to expand...

Wow, I loved that show! (Notice the Crystal Skulls in the intro?)

DeepSixFix said:

Conventional science says an object can't be in two places at the same time. But the science of quantum physics says it can. Science explains lots of things as long as you don't look too deeply into them.

Click to expand...

That's totally irrelevant to the quoted passage.

You're trying to differentiate science from quantum science. They're all forms of regimented study and they all have their specific rules and applications.

Occam's Razor is pertinent in the quoted passage. The occurrence of a stationary apple in three dimensions is not pertinent when you're seeing it from a fourth. It's a different environment and a different application.

ResidentAlien said:

You're trying to differentiate science from quantum science. They're all forms of regimented study and they all have their specific rules and applications.

Click to expand...

Phrenology was once a regimented study, too. We know now that it's not a science, but it was then. Quantum physics does not necessarily have specific rules, in many cases it defies known rules. The vast majority of people are unable to fathom the vast conundrums posed in quantum mechanics, so regular science works for them.

ResidentAlien said:

So what?

Occam's razor dictates that we look toward the most simple explanation.

Two explanations have been presented.

A. Aliens are responsible for creating early works of engineering here on Earth.

B. Primitive man is more advanced than preconceptions have historically allowed.

You tell me which requires fewer assumptions and logical leaps.

Click to expand...

That depends on just how advanced our ancient forebears were, doesn't it? Which would you believe, that ancient aliens have visited Earth, or that an ancient Earth civilization was once as advanced, or more so, than we are? With aircraft? Power sources, and computers? Which explanation is more "simple?"

DeepSixFix said:

Phrenology was once a regimented study, too. We know now that it's not a science, but it was then. Quantum physics does not necessarily have specific rules, in many cases it defies known rules. The vast majority of people are unable to fathom the vast conundrums posed in quantum mechanics, so regular science works for them.

That depends on just how advanced our ancient forebears were, doesn't it? Which would you believe, that ancient aliens have visited Earth, or that an ancient Earth civilization was once as advanced, or more so, than we are? With aircraft? Power sources, and computers? Which explanation is more "simple?"

Click to expand...

Neither. They both defy logic and are serious leaps of faith.

And I certainly never implied that ancient civilizations had such advanced technology, so kindly don't try to pervert my argument.

None of that advanced technology was necessary to create these monuments and assuming so is discrediting human potential. Mathematics, ingenuity and the dedication that religious idealism can provide are more than enough to drive a group to such a feat. And the science and the archeological evidence supports that.

Matt deMille said:

Well said. "Science" is indeed a catch-all term and many people who like to profess themselves smarter than the rest of us tend to use it way out of context. It's easier for them to just say "science says so". But the easy-out of "my science kung-fu is better than yours" isn't really science in and of itself. There's dogma, defending a comfort-bubble, indeed all the trappings of a belief-system. Ironic.

It is indeed much more interesting that two very hardlined scientific approaches, such as conventional physics and quantum physics, are directly opposed. You make a very good point in bringing those up.

Click to expand...

No, Matt, once again you and your bosom buddy, DeepFix are misrepresenting what science is.


Now, I know this is difficult for you-- I've already run through it for you countless times, but I'll break it down once more...



Science is not any doctrine. It is a set of tests used to validate or negate a statement. Dogma implies a rigid belief. The very notion of science is to allow for the evolution of beliefs, or more accurately, understanding.


Try flexing that meager muscle in your head around that one. Because you really just look more and more uneducated the more you claim that science is stuck in its ways. It, by definition, cannot be that.

Matt, you're some guy in the entertainment industry who has no formal education in the fields discussed--and, as we have seen, doesn't know an Egyptian sarcophagus from a horse trough. Stop speaking like you're some kind of authority, or have any insight worthy of serious consideration.


Edit: Ha, it's happening to me too. RA, I think we just went an hour back in time.

ResidentAlien said:

once again you and your bosom buddy, DeepFix are misrepresenting what science is.

Click to expand...

Not interested in a flame war, thanks!

DeepSixFix said:

Conventional science says an object can't be in two places at the same time. But the science of quantum physics says it can. Science explains lots of things as long as you don't look too deeply into them.

Click to expand...

Well said. I personally tend to think that "science" is indeed a catch-all term and many people who like to profess themselves smarter than the rest of us use way out of context. It's easier for them to just say "science says so". But the easy-out of "my science kung-fu is better than yours" isn't really science in and of itself. There's dogma, defending a comfort-bubble, indeed all the trappings of a belief-system. Ironic that science could become so entrenched.

It is indeed much more interesting that two very hardlined scientific approaches, such as conventional physics and quantum physics, are directly opposed. You make a very good point in bringing those up.

DeepSixFix said:

Phrenology was once a regimented study, too. We know now that it's not a science, but it was then. Quantum physics does not necessarily have specific rules, in many cases it defies known rules. The vast majority of people are unable to fathom the vast conundrums posed in quantum mechanics, so regular science works for them.

Click to expand...

Very good points.

DeepSixFix said:

That depends on just how advanced our ancient forebears were, doesn't it? Which would you believe, that ancient aliens have visited Earth, or that an ancient Earth civilization was once as advanced, or more so, than we are? With aircraft? Power sources, and computers? Which explanation is more "simple?"

Click to expand...

Bravo!

A point made several times before: Sometimes, an alien explanation is indeed the simpler, more logical one. Some people just have a hard time accepting that, for whatever reason.

All too often, I think, folks forget all the complexities that are required to achieve certain things (power sources, computers, aircraft, etc). I think it's still the old school programming of "ropes and slave labor is all you need" and that, once weened on such a silly explanation, people tend to defend that position with new theories, even if those theories are radically different from what (and why) they first came to believe what they did. Indeed, it's about defending a position, a comfort-zone of acceptance, rather than really asking the true, scientific or important questions.

DeepSixFix said:

Not interested in a flame war, thanks!

Click to expand...

No, you're just interested in misrepresenting something to fuel your own agenda.


EDIT: Annnnd we're back! Weird board glitch, there.

DeepSixFix said:

Phrenology was once a regimented study, too. We know now that it's not a science, but it was then. Quantum physics does not necessarily have specific rules, in many cases it defies known rules. The vast majority of people are unable to fathom the vast conundrums posed in quantum mechanics, so regular science works for them.

Click to expand...

According to a friend of mine:

---
"Well, I should start by saying that I am pursuing a PhD in condensed matter physics, so I AM tainted by an insurmountable pile of dogma known as "scientific standards".

This post is not about aliens, but it is about science. Just a fair warning if you don't care to read about science, I'll try to keep it as short as I can.

Mr. SixFix, Quantum mechanics has been a "conventional science" for about 85% of the 20th century. It certainly does not say that "objects" can be in two places at the same time, but I can perhaps see where that misconception could come from. Quantum mechanics says that at a small enough scale (less than 10^-10 meters), location and velocity are not well-defined enough for a given particle to say exactly where something is or isn't. This comes from "particle-wave duality", which basically means that at this small scale, particles of matter behave much like waves. When you have two particles (let's say electrons) in very close proximity to each other, their "waveforms" start to sort of "bleed" into one another. It is very important not to confuse this behavior with the idea that the electrons share the same state. Indeed, one of the most basic and important discoveries of quantum mechanics is that no two particles may share a quantum state.

And one more thing about your comment in general.

"Science explains lots of things as long as you don't look too deeply into them."

Looking deeply at "things" is precisely what science IS. Newtonian physics (regular physics that describes big, slow things) may have been fundamentally disproved by relativistic and quantum discoveries, but that doesn't mean that PHYSICS is broken or that the scientific community is doomed to failure. It means that we are continually updating our understanding of physics. We update that with the scientific method. Once we try to advance our understanding of something by working backwards from a predetermined conclusion (ancient aliens), we stop advancing our understanding. That's how we become closed-minded and dogmatic."
---