John Williams confirmed for Indy IV...

Indie House

New member
ResidentAlien said:
I wasn't gonna ruin the mood...

...but I really dislike Williams. Since you were looking for people who did... that's me. I'm the odd man out. He's a perfectly competent composer... who cranks out the same stuff time and again. I find him trite and devoid of creativity. His scores are like old pulp literature. Cheap and entertaining... but not very good.

I'd have to disagree. I find his music very romantic (and that's not in a boy girl kind of way).

Besides melodic prose that complements the event to which it is written and a balance of light and shade that is immaculate in its timing, I find Williams' music is full of enriching ideas and a wonderment of life that reaches out and touches the extremities of our senses.

:hat:
 
Indie House said:
I'd have to disagree. I find his music very romantic (and that's not in a boy girl kind of way).

Besides melodic prose that complements the event to which it is written and a balance of light and shade that is immaculate in its timing, I find Williams' music is full of enriching ideas and a wonderment of life that reaches out and touches the extremities of our senses.

:hat:


Zzzz... Overly intrusive and bombastic. Complimentary is not how I'd describe his music.
 

No Ticket

New member
I think he is best when doing themes. His music in Star Wars and Indiana Jones I've always found very fun and that it appropriately sets the "mood" for whatever the theme is applied to.

Examples:

1.) Star Wars Main Theme - The MOMENT it begins everything is loud and triumphant. It immediately makes you feel that "We're going to win the day" kind of feeling." It has a, there's all kinds of adventure ahead of you ring to it.

2.) Imperial March - It sounds very menacing. It sounds like an anthem to something from the 1940s, like the Nazis. Appropriately enough it's for the Empire, which is very much like Nazi Germany with-in the Star Wars universe. It makes you feel the presence of a big government or an imposing person.

3.) Raiders March - It basically is perfect. It sounds just like it should. It makes me feel like adventure is ahead... we're gonna be jumping from vehicles and firing guns and dodging traps and all that jazz. Then as it goes into the bridge, it slows down a little like "we're getting away from the danger, or we're approaching it" then it builds back into the main theme and it's like "Danger is here! Or It's back! Or whatever." It just exemplifies what Indy stands for.

4.) Han & Leia's Theme (ESB) - It perfectly sets the mood for romantic feelings... but with a hint of uncertainty. You don't know if you'll be together or be able to. But as it builds up you know the "love" is strong. It plays at the end of the movie too... with that uncertainty of what is going to happen applied further to the actual storyline... "what will happen to Han? Vader is Luke's dad?!? etc."

5.) The Mine Theme from TOD - I don't know what the real title to this piece is, but I always felt the music to it was very appropriate for the mining scenes. It's always stuck in my head after watching that movie. It makes me feel like the tempo or beat to it is applied to someone mining the rock. Dum dum dum dum dum *strike* dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dummm *strike* dum dum dum dum dum *strike* dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum _pause_ *strike*

... then it has that part that scales up and down after that which is like the getting away or trying to get out of there...

I don't know. I think Williams is a master of thematic music in film.
 

drwynn

New member
ResidentAlien said:
I wasn't gonna ruin the mood...

...but I really dislike Williams. Since you were looking for people who did... that's me. I'm the odd man out. He's a perfectly competent composer... who cranks out the same stuff time and again. I find him trite and devoid of creativity. His scores are like old pulp literature. Cheap and entertaining... but not very good.

The same stuff over and over again? Williams clearly has at least three different "eras" of sounds; 50's and 60's...70's and 80's...90's and beyond.

If you think that "Catch Me If You Can", "Memoirs of a Geisha", or even "Schindler's List" sound the same as, say, "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" or "Return of the Jedi"...then you seriously need a musical education. I won't even get into Williams' works for the classical concert hall, which range from traditional to downright modern avant garde classical.

Yes, there are certain compositional techniques that Williams will utilize repeatedly throughout his compositional career...but, that's part of his "sound". Any composer will do the same thing; they use similar orchestrational techniques because that is part of their "sound". Even popular music groups do the same thing. Their music may evolve from album to album...but, most groups retain the same elemental sound.

James Horner may grow and evolve, create new themes, and display remarkable maturity as a composer...but he will always SOUND like James Horner. The same thing can be said for Jerry Goldsmith...one of the greatest film music composers of the 20th century. The same thing can be said for Bernard Hermann or even Alfred Newmann...both legends in the field.

Ludwig van Beethoven's basic "sound" and compositional techniques remained the same throughout his career...just as Williams' have. But does that make Beethoven devoid of creativity or mean that he wrote the "same thing" over and over again? Not even close...

Williams competent? This may be your opinion...but, it's hardly a fact. The man single-handedly revived the use of symphonic film scores in the 70's...he continuously displays a remarkable ability to compose music that is densely textured in a very creative manner in regards to what is happening in the films he scores.

Devoid of creativity? Now, that's just plain misinformed, ignorant, and shallow. Sorry, but it is.

You're definitely entitled to your opinion...but, when it's that grossly exaggerated...well, it's quite suspect.

And, to once again pro-actively defend myself from your retaliatory remarks which are sure to follow, you absolutely CANNOT say I don't know what I'm talking about on this one. I have three music degrees from two of the top musical institutions in the U.S. (Juilliard and the Indiana University School of Music). I'm sure some will say that means "nothing" and doesn't make my argument any more substantiative than anyone else's or make me sound more impressive...but, you can hardly argue that I'm not well-informed or know what I'm talking about when it comes to this subject.

And...I'm sure someone will say I'm being condescending again...but, whatever. Facts are facts; Williams is anything BUT devoid of creativity and I know of what I speak on the subject. That may sound snobbish but...whatever.
 
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drwynn said:
The same stuff over and over again? Williams clearly has at least three different "eras" of sounds; 50's and 60's...70's and 80's...90's and beyond.

If you think that "Catch Me If You Can", "Memoirs of a Geisha", or even "Schindler's List" sound the same as, say, "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" or "Return of the Jedi"...then you seriously need a musical education. I won't even get into Williams' works for the classical concert hall, which range from traditional to downright modern avant garde classical.

Williams competent? This may be your opinion...but, it's hardly a fact. Devoid of creativity? Now, that's just plain misinformed, ignorant, and shallow. Sorry, but it is.

You're definitely entitled to your opinion...but, when it's that grossly exaggerated...well, it's quite suspect.

And, to once again pro-actively defend myself from your retaliatory remarks which are sure to follow, you absolutely CANNOT say I don't know what I'm talking about on this one. I have three music degrees from two of the top musical institutions in the U.S. (Juilliard and the Indiana University School of Music). I'm sure some will say that means "nothing" and doesn't make my argument any more substantiative than anyone else's or make me sound more impressive...but, you can hardly argue that I'm not well-informed or know what I'm talking about when it comes to this subject.

And...I'm sure someone will say I'm being condescending again...but, whatever. Facts are facts; Williams is anything BUT devoid of creativity and I know of what I speak on the subject. That may sound snobbish but...whatever.

Ah, you again! My favorite Raven *******. <3

Ok, where to begin...


Yes, it is my opinion, just as it's your opinion that I'm wrong--neither way can it be proven as fact so using that word is down-right idiotic. But calling Williams a genius is pretty absurd--he's just another musician cranking out trite film scores. He's no Mozart. He's no Beethoven. He's just an average film composer who modifies pre-existing classical ideas (and in fact his own work) for a score of the week.

Calling Williams "avant-garde" is a slap to the face of all the wonderful work Edgard Varese and similar artists gave us. Zappa was an avant-garde composer. Zorn is avant-garde. Varese and the like; avant-garde. Williams--pop. Easily digestible popular classicism. Enjoyable perhaps but in no way avant-garde.

Keep jumping to your own "suspect" credentials. No one believes you, or in fact cares anyway. You really bore me.

And alas, you come around full circle to that word "fact" again. Don't throw it around so arbitrarily! Really makes you look like a dumbass. ;)
 

drwynn

New member
ResidentAlien said:
Zzzz... Overly intrusive and bombastic. Complimentary is not how I'd describe his music.

See...this quote alone shows that you don't seem to have enough exposure to the different types of Williams scores out there.

To call his score for "Schindler's List", "Saving Private Ryan", or even "Geisha" intrusive or bombastic is absolutely ridiculous and is a statement totally lacking credibility.

Hell, in the liner notes for "List" and "Ryan" Williams even says how his main goal is to compose music that stays out of the way of the film. And in both cases, he clearly succeeded.
 
drwynn said:
Hell, in the liner notes for "List" and "Ryan" Williams even says how his main goal is to compose music that stays out of the way of the film. And in both cases, he clearly succeeded.

Do you believe everything someone tells ya?

Great art should stand on it's on. It shouldn't need an explanation from it's creator.
 
And Schindler's List is awful.

And yes, I'm of Jewish descent so don't give me **** about it. Movies are not good merely because they're based on some historic narrative. Same goes for Saving Private Ryan. Garbage through-and-through. And much of the reason why I so dislike Spielberg as a director.

But go ahead, cite those as examples to why I don't know my Williams scores! You're moderately amusing (though wearing thin fast...)
 

drwynn

New member
ResidentAlien said:
Ah, you again! My favorite Raven *******. <3

Ok, where to begin...

Yes, it is my opinion, just as it's your opinion that I'm wrong--neither way can it be proven as fact so using that word is down-right idiotic. But calling Williams a genius is pretty absurd--he's just another musician cranking out trite film scores. He's no Mozart. He's no Beethoven. He's just an average film composer who modifies pre-existing classical ideas (and in fact his own work) for a score of the week.

Calling Williams "avant-garde" is a slap to the face of all the wonderful work Edgard Varese and similar artists gave us. Zappa was an avant-garde composer. Zorn is avant-garde. Varese and the like; avant-garde. Williams--pop. Easily digestible popular classicism. Enjoyable perhaps but in no way avant-garde.

Keep jumping to your own "suspect" credentials. No one believes you, or in fact cares anyway. You really bore me.

And alas, you come around full circle to that word "fact" again. Don't throw it around so arbitrarily! Really makes you look like a dumbass. ;)

Williams can clearly be compared, and has been in many cases, to composers like Mozart and Beethoven. Not just by me...but by many of the leading musical scholars in the top musical insitutions of this nation. Williams is, by your claim, a composer "who modifies pre-existing classical ideas (and in fact his own work) for a score of the week". People said the same thing about Mozart during his time. People called Beethoven crazy for using such outlandish compositional techniques, forms, and styles. After his Heilegenstadt Testament, Beethoven was accused, by some, of "going over the edge" and being half-insane. They called his "Symphony 9" ridiculous, offensive, and worse. But today, it's regarded as one of the greatest works known to man.

Richard Strauss was accused by musical scholars and critics of his time as doing the same thing you're accusing Williams of doing...and today he is considered one of the greatest classical composers who ever lived.

Comparing Williams to Edgar Varese or Frank Zappa in some cases does make sense. Some of the compositions he's written for the classical music halls DO take that avant-garde type approach. Not to mention some of the techniques he's used for pieces in films like "War of the Worlds".

And you can keep trying to diss my credentials...but, they're facts. Like it or not. You keep trying to make me sound as if I don't know what I'm talking about by trying to make everyone believe that what I claim to have as credentials are in fact lies. Do I need to make a list of the classes I took or the professors I learned from or the music I performed...or start spouting off music theory? I won't bother seeing as you probably wouldn't understand half of it...

You can insult me all you want...but it doesn't change the facts. I know of what I speak...and Williams can be classified as some as "trite" and "easy to digest"...but no one who knows ANYTHING about music would ever dare to say the man isn't creative or a musical genius of sorts.

I won't resort to your level by calling you names. But, I will say this; try getting a real music education and then get back to me.
 

drwynn

New member
ResidentAlien said:
And Schindler's List is awful.

And yes, I'm of Jewish descent so don't give me **** about it. Movies are not good merely because they're based on some historic narrative. Same goes for Saving Private Ryan. Garbage through-and-through. And much of the reason why I so dislike Spielberg as a director.

But go ahead, cite those as examples to why I don't know my Williams scores! You're moderately amusing (though wearing thin fast...)

Again...speculative opinion. Hardly facts...
 

Kingsley

Member
Mozart and Beethoven seem so far away in musical terms, they are above personal preferences.

I think time is the best judge, and will put everyone in his place... so we can talk in a hundred years ;)
 
drwynn said:
Again...speculative opinion. Hardly facts...


Oooh, irony. I love how the man keeps resorting to the word "fact" to classify a man as a genius! Is that proven? Really? Is it? Haha. You can't prove it and the word fact is therefore ****ing idiotic to use.

Though unlike you I never claimed to be dealing in facts. Never once.


But yeah, we're through. You've worn out your welcome. Worn very thin... and snapped. Ignored. Have a nice life. :)
 

drwynn

New member
ResidentAlien said:
You're moderately amusing (though wearing thin fast...)

You're one to talk.

I'm glad we're through. I don't want to debate music with you because in this argument you're clearly in over your head. Thanks for your time.
 

commontone

New member
Well, drwynn seems spot-on to me, and I am also a trained musician. Some of Williams' concert music does indeed use advanced techniques--serialism (12-tone row), experimental orchestration (muted woodwinds, alternate fingerings for bizarre sound, etc), and so on.

I agree that to call him "avant garde" may be pushing it--he's not really breaking new ground, but he's well-versed in the techniques that such composers use. And to call some of his work easily digestible pop classicism is just wrong. You might as well say the same things about Samuel Barber or Boulez if you're going to go that route, and you'd still be just as wrong.

I'm sure many a casual John Williams fan would be scratching their heads after hearing certain concert pieces of his.
 

drwynn

New member
Kingsley said:
Mozart and Beethoven seem so far away in musical terms, they are above personal preferences.

I think time is the best judge, and will put everyone in his place... so we can talk in a hundred years ;)

I agree with you in the same that Mozart and Beethoven are far away in terms of "time". But, as I wrote in a previous post...I think they both received a lot of the same type of criticisms and receptions that a lot of Williams' work does today.

In his day, Mozart was thought to have, by some, thrown away his potential and squandered his career...but, time has shown that is hardly the case.

I agree that time is the best judge. But I think there are also some things (which I have referred to as facts, yes) that are clearly facts. And Williams' creativity and breadth of variation in his works are a fact...not just to me...but to most of the musical scholars in this Earth.
 

drwynn

New member
commontone said:
Well, drwynn seems spot-on to me, and I am also a trained musician. Some of Williams' concert music does indeed use advanced techniques--serialism (12-tone row), experimental orchestration (muted woodwinds, alternate fingerings for bizarre sound, etc), and so on.

I agree that to call him "avant garde" may be pushing it--he's not really breaking new ground, but he's well-versed in the techniques that such composers use. And to call some of his work easily digestible pop classicism is just wrong. You might as well say the same things about Samuel Barber or Boulez if you're going to go that route, and you'd still be just as wrong.

I'm sure many a casual John Williams fan would be scratching their heads after hearing certain concert pieces of his.

OK...calling him "avant-garde" may be pushing it a tad...but, I still think some of his stuff ("Treesongs") is as close to avant-garde as a lot of other modern classical works.

In any case...thanks for backing me up. For someone to call Williams uncreative, or easily-digestible as Resident Alien did is just plain ridiculous.

I'm not trying to say you "chose sides" and start a war...but, it's nice to see there's someone else on here that can back up my claims with musical knowledge that stems from an evident musical education. Thank you again!
 

Kingsley

Member
Well, I haven't any academic musical formation, so I can only appreciate music intuitively. And take the opinion of experts a little more seriously than other opinions.

I like John Williams compositions, but I like the Ramones three chords melodys too. And altough I know there is an ocean of differences between them, I am not in the position to call somene a "genius" in musical terms.
 

drwynn

New member
Kingsley said:
Well, I haven't any academic musical formation, so I can only appreciate music intuitively. And take the opinion of experts a little more seriously than other opinions.

I like John Williams compositions, but I like the Ramones three chords melodys too. And altough I know there is an ocean of differences between them, I am not in the position to call somene a "genius" in musical terms.

Please don't misunderstand me...I'm not trying to claim myself as a musical expert. But, I do have years of formal music training and education, I make money composing music and working as an orchestrator, and I am a professional classical music performer who has worked for seven years as the principal player in professional orchestras in both Indiana and Kentucky. So...I am proud of my musical expertise and do claim to know a little more than the average layman...no matter how arrogant that fact may make me sound.

The definition of a genius is as follows;

"A genius is a person of great intelligence, who shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work. The term may also be applied to someone who is a polymath or a prodigy. Although the term is sometimes used to denote the possession of a superior talent in any field (e.g., Roger Federer may be said to have a genius for tennis or Winston Churchill for statesmanship), in many instances the term is used specifically to denote an exceptional natural capacity of intellect in areas of art, literature, music, science and mathematics."

I think that most people with real musical training and education would concede the fact that John Williams is a musical genius of sorts. That may make me sound like a "dumb-ass", according to Resident Alien, but...I don't care. I know Williams' music too well...I've heard musical experts around the world say the same thing about Williams...and I've heard the same words from the mouths of the top musical professors in this nation to dispute that idea.

And, to pro-actively defend myself from other attacks sure to follow, when I use the fact that I've heard too many others call Williams a genius as evidence or semi-basis for my calling him one...I'm not merely regurgitating what I've heard others say and I don't "believe everything people say" as Resident Alien would have everyone believe.

I'm just saying that I know music...and I know Williams' music...and I came to this conclusion and see that too many other people agree with me to think that I might be insane or wrong.
 

drwynn

New member
ResidentAlien said:
But yeah, we're through. You've worn out your welcome. Worn very thin... and snapped. Ignored. Have a nice life. :)

Thank goodness. No one else around here seemed as belligerent, opinionated, or intolerable as you. Everyone else has been fairly welcoming and affable, in fact.

Cheers to those that didn't jump all over my a$$ to begin with. Thank you for being hospitable!
 
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