Has anyone's feelings for KOTCS softened?

Grizzlor

Well-known member
Hey, when you have a script rewritten 40 times over a 15 year period, it's going to look like a mess! I think the predictable, goofy humor was added at Spielberg's request by David Koepp. Koepp wrote the Mutt character into the story. Spielberg made it far worse by using Looney Tune-like CGI of the monkeys and gophers and what not. Then you have the refrigerator stunt, and the alien, also far too cartoonish. That's why I find most fault in Steven. The overall light-heartedness is what he wanted, he does not want to do another Temple of Doom, because that movie scared his children.
 

kongisking

Active member
Grizzlor said:
Hey, when you have a script rewritten 40 times over a 15 year period, it's going to look like a mess! I think the predictable, goofy humor was added at Spielberg's request by David Koepp. Koepp wrote the Mutt character into the story. Spielberg made it far worse by using Looney Tune-like CGI of the monkeys and gophers and what not. Then you have the refrigerator stunt, and the alien, also far too cartoonish. That's why I find most fault in Steven. The overall light-heartedness is what he wanted, he does not want to do another Temple of Doom, because that movie scared his children.

No, it was because audiences and critics at the time were too immature to appreciate a darker and more intense adventure film. So they lambasted it. And Steven took it personally, so now he operates under the delusion that Indiana Jones should never, ever, ever go full intense ever again. Hence, KOTCS feeling like, well, a Disneyfied adventure movie.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is one reason haters are a disgusting cancer: their endless potential to destroy the things they love the most...
 

Henry W Jones

New member
While I love all four they definitely moved away from full intense and are slowly moving toward going full retard. Never go full retard.
 

kongisking

Active member
Henry W Jones said:
While I love all four they definitely moved away from full intense and are slowly moving toward going full retard. Never go full retard.

Now, now. Watch your language. Nowadays we say "never go full special." :p
 

AndyLGR

Active member
There was no need to be so daft with KOTCS. ROTLA was nowhere near as stupid, it still seems a serious action adventure movie even with a few gags thrown in. KOTCS took that comedy element too far for my taste.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
I think you can make arguments about the tone (and I still don't know how you make an Indy movie where he doesn't even fire his revolver), but I also think it's too easy to get hung up on it.

In truth the tone felt too light because consequences felt nonexistent. And that's because stakes were ineffectually established and characters didn't seem particularly aware of or bothered about their own mortality. (The way everyone conducted themselves in the sand pit, Marion deliberately driving into a tree with an assured smile). You correct these things, and I think the whole issue of "tone" starts to correct itself. I don't think anyone set out to make the movie feel inconsequential. I think it's the inevitable result of some shoddy storytelling. CGI animals are not the real issue.
 

Temple Raider

Active member
It's grown on me a lot. When I first saw it I was definitely in the disappointed majority of fans, but repeat viewings and viewing it alongside the original three improved it a lot for me and these days I honestly prefer it by the tiniest of margins over The Last Crusade. I find I quite like the storyline, setpieces and action scenes in it. It's not without some serious issues but it's a fine addition nonetheless to the series.
 

kongisking

Active member
Temple Raider said:
It's grown on me a lot. When I first saw it I was definitely in the disappointed majority of fans, but repeat viewings and viewing it alongside the original three improved it a lot for me and these days I honestly prefer it by the tiniest of margins over The Last Crusade. I find I quite like the storyline, setpieces and action scenes in it. It's not without some serious issues but it's a fine addition nonetheless to the series.

Wait...you LIKE this movie? And you admit it has serious issues?

You're either with the haters or against them, friend. Didn'tcha know? ;)
 

Temple Raider

Active member
I didn't say it was perfect ;) I find some of the attempts at humor aren't too successful and the CGI is certainly noticable and jarring in instances, and Oxley feels mostly useless. But despite that it's still very entertaining and I find it has much more good than bad. Ford can play Indy in his sleep and in some ways the character felt more like his Raiders/TOD self. I enjoy the storyline, action, locales and setpieces more and I also enjoy the quest for the Crystal Skull very enjoyable. I find stuff like the nuked fridge, the swinging monkeys and the UFO bursting from the temple don't even bother me anymore when I watch it.
 

AndyLGR

Active member
Indy1Jones2 said:
It wasn't bad at all the warehouse scene was good along with the fridge part.
The warehouse scene was very good. I watched it again recently and I think the film lost its way from when Indy met Mutt.

I still can't get past the additions of Ox and Marion, who I think offered nothing to the story. The macguffin seems pointless and the ending in the temple makes no sense. Why no one noticed this during all the script meetings and then production I don't know. But overall it doesn't match the standard of the other 3.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
AndyLGR said:
Why no one noticed this during all the script meetings and then production I don't know.

Top Men were smoking too much invisible weed.

steven_spielberg_george_lucas-620x388.jpg


:p
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
AndyLGR said:
The warehouse scene was very good. I watched it again recently and I think the film lost its way from when Indy met Mutt.

I still can't get past the additions of Ox and Marion, who I think offered nothing to the story. The macguffin seems pointless and the ending in the temple makes no sense. Why no one noticed this during all the script meetings and then production I don't know. But overall it doesn't match the standard of the other 3.
The film certainly suffers from the fact that Indy's party during the latter half of the film only seems to consist of tagalongs who are not necessary to proper the story forward. Beyond Indy and Oxley, not one of Mutt, Marion or Mac are necessary to get the ongoing adventure to its logical conclusion. (Hmm, kinda wonder now if the alliterative naming is an indicator of that.)

A prime example of things being done in inverse is the death of Obi-Wan in Ep IV. It was pretty much confirmed by official sources that the whole reason for killing him off was that they realized he would serve no role in the final quarter of the film.

The previous three adventures in Indy's realm did pretty well to avoid this as well. Characters come and go as the story serves or they constantly repurpose them as plot devices. An especially good example is the handling of Marion and Willie in the first two films. Whenever either one of them is in risk of becoming dead weight, they turn them into damsels in distress. Heck, this happens five(!) times to Marion in RotLa. In KotCS, there's the initial reveal & rescue and that's it.

Technically, Sallah and Marcus become tagalongs towards the end of LC but it's so late into the film that it's not even really noticeable. In KotCS, about half the party serve no purpose for about half the film.

I still enjoy the film even during its latter half for many of the individual moments it offers, but it's quite obvious it has some serious pacing issues.
 

kongisking

Active member
Finn said:
The film certainly suffers from the fact that Indy's party during the latter half of the film only seems to consist of tagalongs who are not necessary to proper the story forward. Beyond Indy and Oxley, not one of Mutt, Marion or Mac are necessary to get the ongoing adventure to its logical conclusion. (Hmm, kinda wonder now if the alliterative naming is an indicator of that.)

A prime example of things being done in inverse is the death of Obi-Wan in Ep IV. It was pretty much confirmed by official sources that the whole reason for killing him off was that they realized he would serve no role in the final quarter of the film.

The previous three adventures in Indy's realm did pretty well to avoid this as well. Characters come and go as the story serves or they constantly repurpose them as plot devices. An especially good example is the handling of Marion and Willie in the first two films. Whenever either one of them is in risk of becoming dead weight, they turn them into damsels in distress. Heck, this happens five(!) times to Marion in RotLa. In KotCS, there's the initial reveal & rescue and that's it.

Technically, Sallah and Marcus become tagalongs towards the end of LC but it's so late into the film that it's not even really noticeable. In KotCS, about half the party serve no purpose for about half the film.

I still enjoy the film even during its latter half for many of the individual moments it offers, but it's quite obvious it has some serious pacing issues.

Agreed. In my opinion, everything before we get to Spalko's camp is pretty much excellent. It's once everything converges that things fall apart, which is absolutely not what should happen when all the plot threads come to a head. This is where the movie should have kicked into high-gear and never stopped for breath, like TOD.

Instead, the pacing becomes sluggish, moving in fits and starts, and the one sequence for me that does have true excitement is Indy and Dovchenko's fight. Everything else is too silly or too pointless to be thrilling (the brief bit with the Ugha attacking them literally amounts to absolutely nothing). This movie suffers one of the most flat, excitement-free third acts I know, but damn my ancestors if the majority of the movie before the camp scene wasn't wonderful.
 

AndyLGR

Active member
All these issues we've just posted in the last 3 or 4 posts are really valid. I'm still at a loss to wonder how the obvious flaws in the story got past such experienced people. Maybe they needed to make the film as the story stood there and then or else it would never have been made. But those problems for me haven't softened over time, I've said them many times over the years in the various threads on here and I think more than anything they've become more noticeable as I get used to the film more.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
There's just nothing driving the movie except the assumption that the audience is going to go along with it. The movie can't even be bothered to express story goals in a halfway organic manner, which leaves us with lines like the following (verbatim):

"We have to get Oxley back, get our hands on that skull and get to Akator before they do!"

Yikes.
 

raiderdad

New member
Other than a few sequences, like the tomb-plundering with the kid, and some of the opening, I was deeply disappointed by this film.
 

Gear

New member
AndyLGR said:
I'm still at a loss to wonder how the obvious flaws in the story got past such experienced people. Maybe they needed to make the film as the story stood there and then or else it would never have been made.

I think you've got it, right there. Ok, folks, mystery solved! We can clock out, now...

But really, they had 19 years to waffle and entertain the idea of making a fourth film and conceptualize what it might be like if and maybe when they made another Indy movie. Often, the best results come when you just get down, get serious and make something. There's this interview Charlie Rose did with Jack White where White talks about how he always works with limits and time constraints to keep creativity and drive alive, and also so he actually accomplishes something. They didn't have any of that until it was time to **** or get off the pot. Or maybe on the pot

I, myself, am of the "INTP" personality type, and I know how easy it is to dwell up inside the mind, ever conceptualizing and over-thinking. Many times, it isn't until I'm under the gun--either on my own terms or not--that things actually get done. Just ask most of my unstarted or unfinished creative endeavors.

This is the trap that the creators of KotCS fell into. Perfectionism coupled with too much time (until the last minute) and 19 years of ideas that weren't executed well.

I echo the common agreement that the story goes limp after around the first third. Come to think of it, I think I've only seen KotCS about three times all the way through. I've watched up until the scene back at Indy's house discussing the 'hard years' quite a few times, though. ... Interesting.

Although, I'm very glad KotCS was made rather than not. I'll stand by that.
 
Last edited:
Top