In favor of a UFO plot

Randy_Flagg

Well-known member
I know a lot of people hate the idea of UFOs in Indy film, but the more I think about it, the more I like it.

First, let me state what I DO NOT want to see--

1. No direct shots of aliens. They should be implied more than anything else, and left to the audience's imagination.

2. Absolutely no flying in UFOs. I don't want to see Indy piloting a space ship.

Now, how I think it could work--

1. It makes perfect sense for the 1950s setting, since that is the time of the Roswell crash, and the nation was getting quite interested in such phenomenon.

2. Harrison Ford said something about "inner choice and political reasons." The US government wanted to keep the Roswell incident a big secret. But perhaps they hire Indy, as an archeaologist, to study some artifact that was found around the crash site. Now, based on what he discovers about that artifact, he needs to make a choice about what needs to be done. So although the movie involves a UFO, it would still show Indy acting as an archeaologist and dealing with human enemies (government agents, crazy scientists, conspiracy theorists, and whatever else.) This way, it doesn't become a hokey Invaders from Mars type of movie, because we wouldn't see "evil aliens" attacking earth. The aliens died in the crash, and it's the humans that are Indy's biggest enemy (though there would have be some supernatural/alien phenomenon towards the end of the film... we need a spectacular showdown, after all.) Spielberg already said the movie involves Adam & Eve, so my guess would be that the relic Indy investigates from the crash site would be something that calls into question the origins of man. It's probably a question that would not really be answered in the movie, leaving us free to interpret things however we want (thus keeping this forum alive and active!)

3. It would offer a new dimension to the Indy franchise. We've seen him searching for lost artifacts in three movies already. Why do a fourth movie unless they can offer something different? On the other hand, Indy would still be very much the archaeologist. Perhaps it would also question the old theories about aliens being the builders of the pyramids.

4. UFOs fit perfectly with the B-Movie tone that Spielberg and Lucas were trying to create with the Indy series. Remember, these movies are supposed to be takes on those old black and white serials. We've seen Spielberg and Lucas have great fun with all the 1930s cliches already (his outfit, the boulder chase, revolving bookshelves, sacrificial temples, evil religious cults, etc.) Now with the setting moved to the 50s, why not some cliches from that period? One of the great things about the Indy movies is how they take old cliches and make them feel fresh again. I think they could do wonders with some of those 1950s UFO movie ideas, adding just the right amount of tongue-in-cheek humour.

5. We already know about the "Saucermen From Mars" script that was tossed around a while back. Sure, that wasn't the greatest, but it shows the tone that Lucas may be planning.

6. Spielberg could make the movie more intelligent than, say, "Independence Day" (actually, probably most of us could, too.) Imagine the subtlety of "Close Encounters" but with far more action as Indy attempts to elude government agents (or stop them from doing whatever they plan to do.)

Granted, I haven't thought out a whole plot, but I really don't think it's an unreasonable premise at all. I know, I cringed at the UFO idea originally too, but if it's handled properly, it should work very well.

I can picture the set-up for the plot quite easily though: A couple of government agents approach Indy at the University. After the prelimanary introductions--

Agent: "Dr. Jones, as I'm sure you're aware, there's been an... incident... in Roswell, New Mexico."

Indy: "I've heard about it. Not really my area of interest though."

Agent: "Perhaps not. But I think you will be interested in what we found there." (hand Indy some artifact.) "As you can see, it looks quite ancient. And those symbols aren't entirely foreign, as one would expect from something that came from another world."

Indy: "Hmmm... no. They're actually quite similar to the cuniforms used by (whatever culture Lucas chooses.) But nobody's seen genuine examples of this type of writing for several centuries."

Agent: "Yes. Our thoughts exactly. We were hoping you could tell us a bit more about it, Dr. Jones. Needless to say, the government is quite... intriqued... by it."
---

So what does everyone else think? Could it work?






[Edited by Randy_Flagg on 06-09-2003 at 08:01 am]
 
I have to admit, I'm a little attached to the spitual stuff. I like that Raiders has the 'suggestion' of a mystical and powerful God presence through out the movie.

I want the last one to have that. I think it cheapens that effect to provide a technologically advanced culture be responsible for the 'magical' aspects at the climax of the film.

Here's what I mean:
If we imagined the Garden of Eden storyline and couple that with the ET presence then you MAY possibly get a story about Indy discovering some artifact that is more advanced technologically than it should be, given its age. This evolves into evidence that a civilisation had been around a lot longer than history suggests. A search for Eden arises as maybe an extraterrestrial map is interpreted from the original artifact Indy found. The race is on.

Eventually the origin of man becomes tied up with extraterrestrials, which could explain the technology of the 'guardians' (Staues of Cherubim) of Eden wielding a flaming sword (laser) at whoever tries to enter Eden (Alien hybridization location).

Naaah.

I like God over Aliens. Much cooler.
 

Barryson Ford

New member
Randy_Flagg said:
I know a lot of people hate the idea of UFOs in Indy film, but the more I think about it, the more I like it.

First, let me state what I DO NOT want to see--

1. No direct shots of aliens. They should be implied more than anything else, and left to the audience's imagination.

2. Absolutely no flying in UFOs. I don't want to see Indy piloting a space ship.

Now, how I think it could work--

1. It makes perfect sense for the 1950s setting, since that is the time of the Roswell crash, and the nation was getting quite interested in such phenomenon.

2. Harrison Ford said something about "inner choice and political reasons." The US government wanted to keep the Roswell incident a big secret. But perhaps they hire Indy, as an archeaologist, to study some artifact that was found around the crash site. Now, based on what he discovers about that artifact, he needs to make a choice about what needs to be done. So although the movie involves a UFO, it would still show Indy acting as an archeaologist and dealing with human enemies (government agents, crazy scientists, conspiracy theorists, and whatever else.) This way, it doesn't become a hokey Invaders from Mars type of movie, because we wouldn't see "evil aliens" attacking earth. The aliens died in the crash, and it's the humans that are Indy's biggest enemy (though there would have be some supernatural/alien phenomenon towards the end of the film... we need a spectacular showdown, after all.) Spielberg already said the movie involves Adam & Eve, so my guess would be that the relic Indy investigates from the crash site would be something that calls into question the origins of man. It's probably a question that would not really be answered in the movie, leaving us free to interpret things however we want (thus keeping this forum alive and active!)

3. It would offer a new dimension to the Indy franchise. We've seen him searching for lost artifacts in three movies already. Why do a fourth movie unless they can offer something different? On the other hand, Indy would still be very much the archaeologist. Perhaps it would also question the old theories about aliens being the builders of the pyramids.

4. UFOs fit perfectly with the B-Movie tone that Spielberg and Lucas were trying to create with the Indy series. Remember, these movies are supposed to be takes on those old black and white serials. We've seen Spielberg and Lucas have great fun with all the 1930s cliches already (his outfit, the boulder chase, revolving bookshelves, sacrificial temples, evil religious cults, etc.) Now with the setting moved to the 50s, why not some cliches from that period? One of the great things about the Indy movies is how they take old cliches and make them feel fresh again. I think they could do wonders with some of those 1950s UFO movie ideas, adding just the right amount of tongue-in-cheek humour.

5. We already know about the "Saucermen From Mars" script that was tossed around a while back. Sure, that wasn't the greatest, but it shows the tone that Lucas may be planning.

6. Spielberg could make the movie more intelligent than, say, "Independence Day" (actually, probably most of us could, too.) Imagine the subtlety of "Close Encounters" but with far more action as Indy attempts to elude government agents (or stop them from doing whatever they plan to do.)

Granted, I haven't thought out a whole plot, but I really don't think it's an unreasonable premise at all. I know, I cringed at the UFO idea originally too, but if it's handled properly, it should work very well.

I can picture the set-up for the plot quite easily though: A couple of government agents approach Indy at the University. After the prelimanary introductions--

Agent: "Dr. Jones, as I'm sure you're aware, there's been an... incident... in Roswell, New Mexico."

Indy: "I've heard about it. Not really my area of interest though."

Agent: "Perhaps not. But I think you will be interested in what we found there." (hand Indy some artifact.) "As you can see, it looks quite ancient. And those symbols aren't entirely foreign, as one would expect from something that came from another world."

Indy: "Hmmm... no. They're actually quite similar to the cuniforms used by (whatever culture Lucas chooses.) But nobody's seen genuine examples of this type of writing for several centuries."

Agent: "Yes. Our thoughts exactly. We were hoping you could tell us a bit more about it, Dr. Jones. Needless to say, the government is quite... intriqued... by it."
---

So what does everyone else think? Could it work?






[Edited by Randy_Flagg on 06-09-2003 at 08:01 am]


I agree with you , i read the Saucermen script and altough its not very good it did have some great elements.
I've always been in favor of an extraterrestial element for Indy 4.
 

Adventurer

New member
Hmmmm.
It seems that i am one of the "lot of people". But i don´t dislike the UFO idea in general. I think it could work. It could be, indeed, even really, really great. In my opinion, the way the idea is presented to the audience is a crucial point. It will make or break the whole idea and thus the movie.

I fully agree with you that there should not be any direct shot of an alien. Actually, it should be prohibited.;)
The same with the UFO´s itself. There should be no flying or showing a flying object whatsoever.

I understand your argument that the Roswell incident would fit perfect timewise, but i do not agree to the idea. Thats beacuse of one reason:

It is not timeless.

The Ark is timeless. The Sankhara Stones are timeless. And the Grail is also. But the whole Roswell thing is only a bit more than 50 years old. Which wouldn´t be a problem, virtually.
At this time, it is unclear as to what really happened at Roswell. Was it a weather ballon, a prototype spacecraft or an UFO? The answer is: It doesn´t matter.

Imagine this hypothetical scenario:
Imagine Indy 4 made with the Roswell story. And in some 50 years, the "thruth" will be known. It wasn´t an UFO, for example, it was a top secret flying washing machine. Whatever. As i said, maybe it was an UFO. But the thing is, what will be known then, may differ greatly from what is known now.

Whatever the truth may be, it will make the film look embarassing. The thing is, "we" can change the future history now.

In all three films before were things that cannot be changed. They were set in stone as well as they were legends. If an archeologist someday finds the Holy Grail, it won´t be changing the movie. All things the movie established will be still valid. No one can prove the film false, if the Grail does not show the fingerprints of Indiana Jones. They don´t even know them. It´s a virtual character.

Of course, you can now argue that why you should care about people in 50 years. But that´s not the point. Even now, the Roswell thing is controversial. It think an Indiana Jones film needs a artifact which is inviolable. A "set in stone" thing. Nothing controversial. And, additionally, somehow vague so that you can fit a storyline in there.
This will maybe make the story believable, even it is on a thin line of being totally unbelievable. But who wants to say something against it, if cannot be proved, ever.

I hope the above does make sense somehow... :(

As is said, i somehow like the E.T. idea. So here´s my suggestion how it could work:
It has to be an ancient artifact. Like 5000 years old. Whatever you can imagine. Something which should be impossible back at that time.

Maybe a metal piece made of nearly 100% pure Titan or a calendar which is equal to another one, but 20.000 kilometers away. At that time! Something simple as that, which could lead to some questions. And these could lead to something even bigger. Think the Pyramids. Or Atlantis. Maybe Maya´s. There are enough died out civilisations which left behind some unsolved puzzles.

And to get to the indy style: They, the E.T.´s, have to be absent. Maybe the left earth before 4000 years. Reasons why they left are nonrelevant. But what they left behind is important. Maybe some gigantic mechanical device, powering an old city or whatever. Let it look like the Well of Souls, just 1000x bigger and 50% more mysterious. All decayed. All abandoned. In any case, it should look ancient, maybe simple even by the standards of 1950, but at the same time very effective. Maybe something like at the end of "Total Recall" minus the whole Sci-Fi within the installation.

Only ideas that came to mind...

[Edited by Adventurer on 06-09-2003 at 04:23 pm]
 

bob

New member
I personally do not feel as anti saucerman as most of the comments i have read on many threads (i am sure i have said this all before though, but i suppose ive commented on almost everything)

I think that if Indy had been a real 1930's - 50's pulp hero he would by the time of Indy IV be fighting Aliens.

HOWEVER

Indy IV is going to be a difficult movie to begin with and completly changing everything about the Indy Movies stand for and transporting them into a straight Sci fi or some dreadful quasi scientific sci fi like Stargate. I think that the Indy movies should just not be taken seriously to make us think too much about the issues it raises.

I think that the whole aliens created civilisation thing is a little before the time of the 1950's not that that matters but it would detract from the spirit of 50's sci fi. The whole conspiracy stuff has already been done and re done at every angle by series like X Files and Stargate it does not belong in Indys world.

I think that the 50's UFO Sci Fi was covered by SS in the controversial series 'Taken' and also i think that it requires a new hero for that you cannot tamper too much with Indy for the probably last outing and to bring something that is completely new - what would have been the point in bringing the character back?

Finally Indy is an archaeologist and in dealing with Roswell etc he becomes a fish out of water and to produce a supernatural ending you would need to show aliens. I dont know i always found the Religious endings (even though i am not religious) infinately more intriguing than the countless alien films i have seen..

It could work but i feel not for Indy IV.......
 

Texas Indy

New member
Go look for the Indiana Jones book, "Indiana Jones and the Sky Pirates" by Martin Caidin. That might help you a bit.
 

bob

New member
The revenge of the Saucermen

OK the news has made this thread relevant as I can not think of any North American artifact that Indy IV would be about....

I am completely stunned to be honest about the possible interpretation of this news as it would be an incredibly daring thing to do (a 'Saucerman' style film) as no one would be expecting it and it would be completely different from any of the Indy films thus making the film stand outside the trilogy. It also moves the Indy series forward but the real question that makes or breaks this plot is, is it Indiana Jones?

But aliens do have a unique place in the cultural consciousness of the west and if Indy had been a real pulp character the chances are that he would fight aliens by the 1950's.....

If it did happen it would certainly blow all shades of the more mature Indy Noir plot out of the water
 

Barryson Ford

New member
Well in the script Indy gets involved cuz they kidnapped his wife and later his assistance is needed because there are ancient markings on the E.T artifact to decipher.
So to me 'it is Indy' material.

Also i find it a more appropriate plot for the 50s setting then something Biblical/religious.
 

The French Indy

New member
That would be kinda cool if the ''saucer'' was in fact some kind of a time machine. The bad guys would try to change the history you know, like bringing back Hitler, the Romans, kenghis khan, belloq(just kidding)and build up the ultimate army of darkness to rule the world.




Ok it sucks...
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Well...we're all entitled to our opinions. But I'll just say what I might have said in my early days at the Raven and say that I agree with what bob says.
 

Randy_Flagg

Well-known member
That's an interesting interpretation of aliens, Fisk. I'd rather not see Indy in the role of the exorcist, though! lol.

Myself, I don't rule out the possibility of life on other planets at all. When you consider the vast reaches of the galaxy, it seems almost egocentric to say that not one other planet has life on it. I'm not just talking about our solar system, I'm talking about the idea that many, many of the stars you see every night have their own solar systems. It's hard for me to believe that Earth, this one tiny little speck in the scheme of things, is the only place with life.

Now, whether or not aliens have ever visited Earth... well, that's a different matter. In the event that intelligent beings do live elsewhere in our galaxy, they still may not have the means to travel so far. What's more, how would they know to head to Earth? Just as we don't know where they are, they wouldn't know where we are.
 

bob

New member
Yes erm interesting Fisk (in my opinion aliens are the scientific age's elves and leprocorns and as real as them)

However what is important is not whether we believe in them or no but how much resonance it has with us, flying saucers are the modern day versions of the grail, atlantis etc

This does not make them good Indy fodder unless my nightmare vision of Indy IV comes true in which the Indy universe is explained the Ark, Shankara Stones and the Grail are explained to be super advanced technology of Alien-Atlantian origin thus providing a Stargate esqe neat explaination.

But that for me is the only way i can see a tie with the trilogy

But for what its worth i just dont think Indy IV is the time to experiment hugely with the very premise of Indy.

But remember that Indy is whatever Lucas wants him to be, he can be everything from a Soldier in WWI, a film stuntman, a jazz musican, a saviour of slave children, to a crusader would alien warrior be a push too far?
 

Randy_Flagg

Well-known member
Originally posted by bob

But that for me is the only way i can see a tie with the trilogy


True, but I don't think it really needs to tie to the the trilogy in any way beyond Indy being Indy. The problem with YIJC, for example, is that Indy was NOT Indy. His attitude was completely different, and the tone was nothing like the Indy movies. If Harrison plays Indy the same way he played him in the trilogy, and if the general tone of the action sequences, humor, etc is consistent with the trilogy, then I think Lucas can experiment with the actual plot a bit more (within reason, of course.)


But for what its worth i just dont think Indy IV is the time to experiment hugely with the very premise of Indy.


It's risky, true. On the other hand, if Indy 4 is just another, "Recover the sacred artifact before evil guys use it to do bad things" story, then why the long delay in making it. I'm guessing Lucas, Steve and Harrison stumbled upon a ton of those scripts over the past ten years, and probably thought, "We did this three times already, why do it again?" I guessing (and only guessing) that Indy 4 may offer something different from the usual Indy stuff, and that could be why it took so long for them to agree on it. Presumably, at some point, a story emerged that seemed different enough to make everyone take notice.


But remember that Indy is whatever Lucas wants him to be, he can be everything from a Soldier in WWI, a film stuntman, a jazz musican, a saviour of slave children, to a crusader would alien warrior be a push too far?


Yes, "Alien Warrior" would be a bit much. And again, that's why I don't think we should see aliens directly. Indy could be researching something that was found on the crash site, something that's potentially earth-shattering, and he then somehow gets entangled with the government's desire to keep it all a secret.

As usual, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I'm not entirely gung-ho about the UFO idea, I just think that it COULD be done, and if handled properly, it would still be a good Indy movie.
 

Seven

New member
I personally have never liked the idea of Indy and aliens in the same movie. Mixing Indiana Jones with stuff like Close Encounters of the Third Kind and ET, is like mixing Jurassic Park with Saving Private Ryan, and Empire of the Sun. I think Indy should be kept chasing after spiritual artifacts, rather than those pesky Greys. But I have to admit, seeing Indy fight James Cameron's "Aliens" would be pretty cool.
 

bob

New member
Renderking Fisk said:
to a crusader would alien warrior be a push too far?

Yes, and I'm embarrassed that you would even ask...

Well flying saucers in the 1950's are far more Indyish than his young Indy adventures, it comes within the remit of a pulp hero, you tell me that if the Indy comics/books treated the character with less rigidness that he would have come across aliens.

Just imagine that in 1990 i was to tell you that a 24 part series on Indys life would be made in which he fights in World War I and hangs around with Sigmond Freud; you would have thought i was mad.

Remember that LC was a perfect curtain fall for Indy, shouldnt we look at Indy in an orignal setting...

(Not that i actually believe this of course, just stimulating debate i hope)
 
I'm really against the fact of Indy going against aliens, UFOs, and extra-terrestrial paranorma like that.

I just can't imagine it.

I fell in love with Indy as he beat up HUMAN foreign guys, searced for ancient treasure, and went against satanic cults.

The fact that Indy may be involved with something like UFOs makes me cringe.
 

Randy_Flagg

Well-known member
Re: The Truth isn't

Renderking Fisk said:

How about Jones go after the archelogical evidence that proves that there really were two women of the ?Sleeping Beauty? and ?Snow-White? fairy-tails?

The secrets to eternal life lies in the glass coffin made by the dwarfs, The Wicked Stepmothers were actually the same woman - Lilith from the days of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, who in turn out to be with third wife of Satan, who in turn again are Evil Aliens out to overthrow Jehovah, the Ultamate Good Alien?

Which begs the question to be answered- are both ?Prince Charming? from the two ?Legends? one and the same, or brothers?

Interesting story idea, but I don't think it'll fly. See, at least with the UFO thing, it ties into the 1950s. That's when the Roswell incident occurred, and it's when there were a ton of UFO b-movies being made. The Snow White stuff doesn't tie in quite as well. But it raises an interesting point, I guess. We saw biblical stuff in the other Indy movies, and the bible is basically a collection of allegories meant to illustrate a point, much like fairy tales (though fewer people believe in the events that occur in Snow White, lol.) So maybe it could... nahh... nevermind.
 

bob

New member
Re: The Truth isn't

Renderking Fisk said:


The notion of Aliens being the crux of civilazation removes God from the picture. With out God there?s no hope for eternal life, there?s no hope for eternal salvation, there?s just Earth as the genetic dumping ground for an advanced civilazation. It removes a lot of the magic and mystisism from the picture and replaces it with extra-terrestrial magic that?s just science we just don?t understand.


Yes i see where you are coming from but i think we are blurring the line between the Indy films and personal views.
The trilogy did not seek to be profound and offer any spiritual insights it just leeched off our collective consciousness.
There has never been presented a genuine Indy world view, no explaination has been offered for the supernatural things that happen throughout the novels and the series even though logically all these events contridict each other. I dont think that they even particularly dwell on any religion, the Ark is nothing but a giant smiting machine, the Shankara stones unexplained 3000 year old light bulbs, and ironically the only spiritual moment in the movies in LC is an artifact that cannot exist in reality.
If it was an alien artifact and i say if it would just be another unexplianed artifact just used as a means to an end for lots of chases etc; the world view that you present just wont come up even if an alien artifact was used....
 

Randy_Flagg

Well-known member
Renderking Fisk said:
Interesting story idea, but I don't think it'll fly.

If you couldn't tell that I was being sarcastic, then you either need more coffee or I should try my hand at writing professionally.


Don't worry, I DID get the sarcasm. If I thought you were seriously suggesting a fairy-tale story, I would have been much harder on you, rather than treating it as a somewhat sensible idea with just mild flaws. So maybe I'm the one who ought to try my hand at writing professionally!
 

intergamer

New member
BUT

it would have to be kept even subtler than the original poster...they could still go to roswell to look for stuff, but an agent doesn't have to say "theres been an incicdent in roswell" - thats too blatant of an allusion

and not only should be see aliens, it should never be stated that they caused anything - the word alien should never be mentioned - just a mysterious force

also, indy is old now, and although a minor celebrity, he needs a reason to "go on the case" why would anybody find him to work on alien stuff "which isn't his line of work"
thats why its sort of a stretch - he would have to be caught up with it

i believe that if all this stuff worked right, it would be a decent indy game, or young indy plot, or indy book

but there's only 4 indy movies - we don't need to descend to aliens just yet
 
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