Crystal Skull Vs Temple of Doom - Which is better?

Darth Vile said:

You are thinking about it way too much. In Raiders, TOD and TLC we see the hand of God (or a God) at work... in KOTCS it happens to be aliens. You may not like the aliens theme, but Lucas' use of mythology, religion and a higher being is consistent throughout the series.

There is less "explanation" in the genre of Science Fiction than you'd like to believe. Indeed, science fiction relies on a sizeable amount of faith and imagination to suspend the viewers/readers disbelief. A perfect example being 2001: ASO, where the line between alien intelligence and what we'd perceive as 'God' is very blurred.

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Yes, science fiction is by definition, "fiction", and often creates fictional explanations. When an episode of Star Trek writes itself into a corner, it simply invents science or a scientific term to explain the resolution.

The inter-dimensional beings are therefore just as fictional as any of the gods of mythology. Until either are proven beyond doubt, they will remain as the creations of men, and therefore "fictional".

The 'aliens' of Indy's universe remain mysterious. We still know very little about them. Just as we see the mysterious power at the end of Raiders, the powers of Mola Ram, the powers of the grail cup. These are all mysterious events, which leave the audience wondering. The characters within the films each assign their own interpretation, according to their faith. In KOTCS it is Oxley who claims to understand the beings, but he is only theorizing, just as members of any religion conjure theories about their personal god.

When it comes to these two films I definately prefer Kingdom. Temple always seemed more static to me. I know that is a more different Indy film, actually it's the most different of them all since the other three have the same structure, but I love this chase around the globe. For me that's what Indy is. Though I must admit Temple had better humor, monkey brains yes, monkey-ing around no.

Now when it comes to aliens yes it should be handled more elegantly. For me, as for all of Indyfans I guess, showing the aliens and their spaceship was the biggest mistake. It really turned people down. The best way to preserve the mystery of previous mcguffins maybe would be to show only one alien skeleton at the end of the film. Perhaps, the one who was left behind and native people begun worship and protect or something. But for the love of God not spaceships. Not inter-dimensional beings, not space between spacies and crap. Shame on you Mr. Lucas!

In spite of the disappointing climax, Kingdom is still listed as a much preferable choice than Temple in my book.

I agree with what you are saying about Temple. It's very much not an Indy film at all, you could put a different character in there and have the same film.

lao che & sons said:

Temple is my all time favorite so it overrides Skull by a long shot

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Awesome! Most people will disagree with putting Temple first, but it's cool that you go against the current and have Temple at the top of your list. Gotta respect that.

This is like asking what smells better puke or poop!

What is it that people find so objectionable about discovering that the already weird world of Indy, also includes it's own parallel world?

Raiders, the film that initiated the world of Indy was so clearly not our world. It was full of historical anachronisms, and there was the inexplicable light trap in the Chachapoyan temple.

With The Temple of Doom we are asked to accept that Indy's world contains men who have the power to extract the heart from a man, and for that man to continue living afterwards. In The Last Crusade we are asked to believe that a man can come back from the dead, and that oil-filled water will not ignite from falling embers until the plot calls for an explosion.

By the time we see KOTCS we ought to expect the weird, and not only that, but to see it as well.

So, the unreality of Raiders supposes that it's taking place in a parallel world, and KOTCS exposes the fact that within that world there also co-exists another, running at a different speed. This is a staple of comic books, and Indiana Jones has always been presented as a comic book on film.

Indy witnesses many weird events. He accepts that weirdness is a part of his world, and he merely moves onto the next adventure. We never see him haunted or possessed by the odd events, he just puts them down to experience. With Roswell in 1947 he was shown the bodies of strange beings, and in 1957 he saw living examples, and a working example of one of their craft. Indy V just has something even bigger to live up to, an even greater mystery to present Indy with.

Dr.Jonesy said:

I actually found it surprising that whenever I see a poll done online or in a film forum, people still rate TOD as the least favorite Indy film.

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Give it a few years. Crystal Skull is still new, so people rate it higher. I think eventually KOTCS will be ranked right where it belongs, dead last. Of course in 10 years we will hopefully have Indy V-X to add to the ranking. Hopefully they'll be better than Crystal Skull.

Sharkey said:

This is like asking what smells better puke or poop!

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Well that all depends on what you've been eating or drinking. A thread like that could go on forever.

I still stand by my conviction that the first hour of Crystal Skull is top shelf (despite a little pointless scene involving an appliance). The opening scene is a wonderful set up; the scene in the graveyard in Peru is among my favourites of the series; the chase scence (Indy and Mutt on the motorcycle) is great fun; it all generally feels great. I really like the temple scene when they figure out that the obelisk is the key.

After the graveyard scene when we enter the second hour, we are given a story that simply doesn't hold together and far too many characters to have to deal with. There was no need to bring Marion back for the reason they did: nostalgia. I would've preferred Sallah.

If the film held together all the way through, with the second hour as good as the first, Crystal Skull would've been far greater than Temple. Alas, that was not the case. I initially liked Crystal Skull more than Temple, mostly because it was more of an adventure movie rather than Indy being in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time, but I think I would rate them about the same, with one taking seat over the other given my mood.

Ultimately, though, I do like both films and love throwing either on now and then.

goodeknight said:

Give it a few years. Crystal Skull is still new, so people rate it higher. I think eventually KOTCS will be ranked right where it belongs, dead last. Of course in 10 years we will hopefully have Indy V-X to add to the ranking. Hopefully they'll be better than Crystal Skull.

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I'm of the opinion that TOD is held in higher critical regard now than it was when released. Have you heard the phrase time is a great healer? It's a truism... and I expect any passionate feelings of disappointment/frustration will diminish over time. As with TOD, I'm sure people will either grow to like Kingdom more (as it becomes just another familiar Indy adventure) or simply feel indifferent to it.

I'm guessing that there are quite a few young people here, but anyone my age who remembers TOD when it first came out will remember how much it was hated and how people thought it crapped all over the memory and great film that Raiders was. TOD at the time was seen very much as a disappointing kids film.

Peru1936 said:

I still stand by my conviction that the first hour of Crystal Skull is top shelf (despite a little pointless scene involving an appliance). The opening scene is a wonderful set up; the scene in the graveyard in Peru is among my favourites of the series; the chase scence (Indy and Mutt on the motorcycle) is great fun; it all generally feels great. I really like the temple scene when they figure out that the obelisk is the key.

After the graveyard scene when we enter the second hour, we are given a story that simply doesn't hold together and far too many characters to have to deal with. There was no need to bring Marion back for the reason they did: nostalgia. I would've preferred Sallah.

If the film held together all the way through, with the second hour as good as the first, Crystal Skull would've been far greater than Temple. Alas, that was not the case. I initially liked Crystal Skull more than Temple, mostly because it was more of an adventure movie rather than Indy being in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time, but I think I would rate them about the same, with one taking seat over the other given my mood.

Ultimately, though, I do like both films and love throwing either on now and then.

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I think that's a pretty accurate assessment Peru1936. KOTCS has all the ingredients to make it a really wonderful Indy movie? but for me the final 3rd lets it down (the Akator section). Unfortunately for KOTCS, the fact that the last section is a bit of a damp squib undermines some of the really good stuff elsewhere in the movie (although the positive still outweighs the negative IMHO). However, if they?d just tightened up and improved the finale, the entire movie would have benefited significantly.

mattzilla2010 said:

Yeah, I like the film, but I do agree that they could've left out some of the characters. It felt a bit crowded. And forgive me if I'm missing your point, but isn't Heart of Darkness rather heavy stuff to use as inspiration for an Indy movie? Even ROTLA (which most people here say is the one that takes itself most seriously) isn't nearly as dark/thematic/symbolic/literary/etc...

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"Mista Oxley, he dead."

If there was a period in the modern era that Indy's two-fisted archeology style would have fit, it's the era of colonial fallout. The strife and turmoil associated with the various liberation movements would have been great in facilitating the disappearance of various artifacts.

But the point is this: Much of Heart of Darkness is a boat trip up river. Adjust the brawl at the Mexican dig site to be in media res; quick jaunt back to the university; weird gibberish letter from Oxley is there; Indy is torn between rescuing Mac & finding Oxley; Mac conveniently turns up after "escaping" from the Ruskies; they're off the South America. They could briefly meet up with Jock who points them in the right direction, and you're on the river within the first 40 minutes. Another 40 or so minutes on and off the river, then the final 45 minutes could be within the actual Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.

Sakis said:

Now when it comes to aliens yes it should be handled more elegantly. For me, as for all of Indyfans I guess, showing the aliens and their spaceship was the biggest mistake. It really turned people down. The best way to preserve the mystery of previous mcguffins maybe would be to show only one alien skeleton at the end of the film. Perhaps, the one who was left behind and native people begun worship and protect or something.

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I agree with much of this. Personally I thought the ufo reveal was an iconic throwback to the Spielberg visuals us 80's kids grew up on. The problem is that by showing too much of the alien element first (fleshing it out completely was a mistake on any and every level), the impact of the saucer was deflated. Either show one or the other.

As far as which one is better, it's all opinion...not truth...If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall.

For me, TOD is favorable over KOTCS, just because Skull is the odd one out right now. If the powers that be really pull out all the stops and develop this new "Atomic Age Adventurer" version of Indy together for a series finale that is undeniably good...my opinion may be swayed.

"I still stand by my conviction that the first hour of Crystal Skull is top shelf (despite a little pointless scene involving an appliance). The opening scene is a wonderful set up; the scene in the graveyard in Peru is among my favourites of the series; the chase scence (Indy and Mutt on the motorcycle) is great fun;"

I agree with 1936 Peru; the opening was awsome. I thought it was great from the start with the Elvis song( did a great job saying this isn't the 30's anymore). I really thought the opening was perfect up to the Fridge scene. I had no problem with the MacGuffin being Aliens and I really liked how they tyed the warhouse from the end of Raiders into this story by makeing it Area 51. My only grip with the movie is some silly scenes, such as the Fridge and Mutt's Tarzan impression. Other than that I really enjoyed KotKS.

That being said I would still have to go with TOD. When I first got into Indy TOD was dead last on my list. I liked it, but not as much as the other 2. Since than it has really grown on me and I like it just as much as TLC now. In fact sometimes I even think I enjoy it just as much as Raiders.

Major West said:

I'm guessing that there are quite a few young people here, but anyone my age who remembers TOD when it first came out will remember how much it was hated and how people thought it crapped all over the memory and great film that Raiders was. TOD at the time was seen very much as a disappointing kids film.

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I'm sorry, but the degree to which TOD was "hated" during its original release has been GREATLY exaggerated over time.

In many circles, both in the critical and fan communities, it was actually quite well-received. Sure, it didn't receive the absolutely universal love that "Raiders" did, but almost no sequels ever do.

Lance Quazar said:

I'm sorry, but the degree to which TOD was "hated" during its original release has been GREATLY exaggerated over time.

In many circles, both in the critical and fan communities, it was actually quite well-received. Sure, it didn't receive the absolutely universal love that "Raiders" did, but almost no sequels ever do.

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Yes, TOD wasn't so much hated as attacked for being overly violent - which made it controversial. I don't remember any hate - I just remember lots of freebies in cereal packets and posters in magazines. I don't think back then that people had the same idea about Indiana Jones that they do now.

Back then Raiders was just a fun comic-book style movie, and TOD was it's worthy prequel. Now with time passing, and Raiders entering the pantheon of the classics, people are treating the original movie with more (too much?) reverence. The films that followed will always be judged against the first, yet the first was Lucas and Speilberg's test to see how the audience would react to this new character - they weren't sure how he would be received. With the films that followed they were able to be more daring, with bigger cliffhangers, and more comic moments.

Lance Quazar said:

I'm sorry, but the degree to which TOD was "hated" during its original release has been GREATLY exaggerated over time.

In many circles, both in the critical and fan communities, it was actually quite well-received. Sure, it didn't receive the absolutely universal love that "Raiders" did, but almost no sequels ever do.

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"Hated"? No. Derided and seen as vastly inferior to Raiders? Yes. It partly due to the negative feedback to TOD that led Lucas/Spielberg to return to the more traditional Indy fair for TLC. After TOD, the consensus appeared to be that TLC was very much "a return to form".

Lance Quazar said:

I'm sorry, but the degree to which TOD was "hated" during its original release has been GREATLY exaggerated over time.

In many circles, both in the critical and fan communities, it was actually quite well-received. Sure, it didn't receive the absolutely universal love that "Raiders" did, but almost no sequels ever do.

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I think you're having a selective memory about things. Virtually everybody that had seen and liked Raiders was let down by Doom when it came out. 20 years later is a different matter, but at the time there was a lot of disappointment toward it. That's why Last Crusade tried to ape Raiders so much, to get the franchise back on track after the TOD disaster. Spielberg and Lucas happily admit that. Darth Vile above has also summed the situation up.

Darth Vile said:

"Hated"? No. Derided and seen as vastly inferior to Raiders? Yes. It partly due to the negative feedback to TOD that led Lucas/Spielberg to return to the more traditional Indy fair for TLC. After TOD, the consensus appeared to be that TLC was very much "a return to form".

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Not by everyone. As I recall it, both Siskel and Ebert called LC boring and derivative. TOD fared much better by some big critics of the time.