Shroud of Turin

Yure · Jan 10, 2011

"Not as easy as it used to be"
Henry Jones Jr., 4

The Church was estabilished by Jesus, but today very little of that inspiration is alive. Here in Italy Vatican is a strong political actor who doesn't respect our society rules. They have rights over thousands of buildings outside its enclave, but don't pay taxes, they exchange support for political candidates for influence over high-profile business ventures, like getting millions of euros for restoration of buildings with the promise (never fullfilled) to make them (and the wonders inside) available for tourism and study, or building edifices without the permits. They evicted hundreds of families (including elderly and poors) in Rome only to collect higher rents, including a disabled woman who later had her belongings impounded for past rent dues. Their radio station is one of the largest radio facilities, and is able to broadcast to the entire world, but in the area where the antennas are located there's a 700% chance of deaths from tumors and leukemia in childred, and they did nothing since the link between the antennas and the diseases increase has been found. Not to mention the abuse scandals all over the world.

We're probably going off topic here, it's a very complex topic that requires another thread.

Rocket Surgeon · Jan 10, 2011

Yure said:
"Not as easy as it used to be"
Henry Jones Jr., 4

The Church was estabilished by Jesus, but today very little of that inspiration is alive. Here in Italy Vatican is a strong political actor who doesn't respect our society rules. They have rights over thousands of buildings outside its enclave, but don't pay taxes, they exchange support for political candidates for influence over high-profile business ventures, like getting millions of euros for restoration of buildings with the promise (never fullfilled) to make them (and the wonders inside) available for tourism and study, or building edifices without the permits. They evicted hundreds of families (including elderly and poors) in Rome only to collect higher rents, including a disabled woman who later had her belongings impounded for past rent dues. Their radio station is one of the largest radio facilities, and is able to broadcast to the entire world, but in the area where the antennas are located there's a 700% chance of deaths from tumors and leukemia in childred, and they did nothing since the link between the antennas and the diseases increase has been found. Not to mention the abuse scandals all over the world.

We're probably going off topic here, it's a very complex topic that requires another thread.

No doubt The Vatican Corruption Thread: Fact, Fiction or Somewhere In Between would be pretty popular...

Though your examples lose their impact and veracity with the declaration:

700% chance of deaths from tumors and leukemia in childred

Which needs it own thread:

What study has proven THAT?!?

Wertheimer N et al. Electrical wiring configurations and childhood cancer. American Journal of Epidemiology 109:273-284, 1979.

Campion EW. Power lines, cancer, and fear. New England Journal of Medicine 337:44-46, 1997.

Farley JW, 2003. Power lines and cancer. Nothing to Fear [online]. Quackwatch. Available from http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/emf.html

Linet MS, et al. Residential exposure to magnetic fields and acute lymphoblastic leukemia in children. The New England Journal of Medicine 1997; 337(1): 1-7.

Ahlbom A, Day N, Feychting M, et al. A pooled analysis of magnetic fields and childhood leukaemia. British Journal of Cancer 2000; 83(5): 692-698.

Montana Smith · Jan 10, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
Cheers Smitty, though I'm not referring to the shoud. As far as I know the shroud belongs in the: Fanwork and Activities thread of The Church.net.

Oh, I worded that last post all wrong. I know we'd both agree on that!

Rocket Surgeon said:
I was referring to the burgeoning concept of corruption and the church...

That's the one where I'd stand with Finn. The Church's self-promoting Fanwork and Activities enterprise. Still in operation today, ducking and diving, absorbing the body blows, just as it absorbed very nearly everything else in the past (like a certain winter festival...)

Pale Horse · Jan 10, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
*What study has proven THAT?!?*

cough...not power lines...but radio antenna....

Yure · Jan 10, 2011

First, a study from Lazio regional government and Protezione Civile (Civil Defense) in 1999 recognized the radio emissions as twice the maximum allowed, later, two distinct studies by Lazio Health Department and Sanitary Commission, that monitored cancer occurrence in that area.

Recently, in november 2010, a court ruled that Vatican antennas are indeed responsible for the many deaths, but nothing has done yet, instead, Vatican declared that will conduct its own counter-study (over ten years after the first one).

Rocket Surgeon · Jan 10, 2011

Pale Horse said:
cough...not power lines...but radio antenna....

Sorry...how about this from cancer.org?

Do cellular phone towers cause cancer?
Some people have expressed concern that living, working, or going to school near a cell phone tower might increase the risk of cancer or other health problems. At this time, there is very little evidence to support this idea. In theory, there are some important points that would argue against cellular phone towers being able to cause cancer.

First, the energy level of radiofrequency (RF) waves is relatively low, especially when compared with the types of radiation that are known to increase cancer risk, such as gamma rays, x-rays, and ultraviolet (UV) light. The energy of RF waves given off by cell phone towers is not enough to break chemical bonds in DNA molecules, which is how these stronger forms of radiation may lead to cancer.

A second issue has to do with wavelength. RF waves have long wavelengths, which can only be concentrated to about an inch or two in size. This makes it unlikely that the energy from RF waves could be concentrated enough to affect individual cells in the body.

Third, even if RF waves were somehow able to affect cells in the body at higher doses, the level of RF waves present at ground level is very low -- well below the recommended limits. Levels of energy from RF waves near cell phone towers are not significantly different than the background levels of RF radiation in urban areas from other sources, such as radio and television broadcast stations.

For these reasons, most scientists agree that cell phone antennas or towers are unlikely to cause cancer.

Ok, in case you don't like cell towers...

But to the inhabitants of Cesano and neighboring communities, the antennas, some transmitting at an effective 600 kilowatts, represent not only a blight on the landscape and something of a nuisance--hearing the Pope's voice picked up by your front-door intercom is not always appreciated--but also a possible health threat [see photo, " Radio Spikes"].

When the antennas were erected in 1951 on a 3.9-square-kilometer plot, the surrounding area, known as Santa Maria di Galeria, was still largely rural.

But during the last few decades the area has been built up, and now an estimated 60 000 people live within a radius of 10 km of the transmitters.

In 2000, a small number of cases of childhood leukemia, first reported by a local physician, were blamed by residents on the strong radio-frequency fields generated by the Vatican antennas.

On the one hand, leukemia incidence was higher close to radio towers; on the other hand, the difference was Statistically Insignificant

This past May, an Italian court imposed suspended 10-day prison sentences on two Vatican officials responsible for operating the transmitters, a cardinal and a priest, for the "dangerous showering of objects"--meaning the antennas' electromagnetic waves. (The term "electromagnetic radiation" has not made it yet into Italy's legal vocabulary.) In addition, environmental groups and committees representing the local population will be awarded damages in a separate civil action, though the figures have yet to be determined.

So the transmitters were there first and people moved in afterwards?

What does science say? While the complaints against Vatican Radio were bouncing back and forth in the Italian courts, the regional government commissioned an epidemiological study of leukemia incidence in the area around the disputed antennas. A team of researchers led by Paola Michelozzi of the Local Health Authority, in Rome, reported in 2002 that the incidence of childhood leukemia from 1987 to 1998 was twice the expected rate, but the actual numbers were very small. The results, published in the American Journal of Epidemiology, indicated that instead of the expected 3.7 cases in the population of 60 000, there had been eight. Because of the small number, Michelozzi considers the result statistically insignificant. But a somewhat more disconcerting finding in her study made a stronger impression on critics of the Vatican, members of the press, and even some experts.

Michelozzi's survey determined that if leukemia incidence was measured in concentric circles around the radio complex, rates dropped off with increasing distance from the transmitters. Based on that finding, a court-appointed expert science panel in the legal proceeding against the Vatican concluded, questionably, that "the weight of evidence...is much more in favor of the existence of a [cancer] risk" and that it "is in favor of a causal relationship." That assessment, together with the Vatican's violation of Italian power limits, is what prompted the guilty verdict last May against the Vatican officials.

Similar studies of populations around radio and television transmitters have been conducted during the past two decades in several countries, including the United States, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and New Zealand. But all these studies are crippled by the very low normal incidence of leukemia, the need to study very large populations, and the technical difficulty of accurately determining actual exposure levels. "The situation has not changed that much. If you look at the string of recent epidemiological studies, they are still equivocal," says Keith Florig, a specialist in risk analysis and radiation protection at Carnegie Mellon University, in Pittsburgh. Florig expressed surprise at the court's ruling in the Vatican case.

Others agree that the ruling was premature. "I'm quite concerned about a rush to judgment based on a less-than-adequate understanding of the scientific issues," says Wayne Overbeck, a specialist in the legal aspects of communications at California State University, in Fullerton.

Montana Smith · Jan 10, 2011

Pale Horse said:
cough...

I thought I heard DiscoLad then.

Oh well, in for a penny, in for a pound:

Montana Smith said:
According to Stephen Fry's show, QI, Vatican City has two open secrets:

1) It has the lowest age of consent in Europe: 12 years-old.

2) It has the highest per capita crime rate in the world: a population of 500 committing 600 crimes per annum.

Rocket Surgeon · Jan 10, 2011

Montana Smith said:
I thought I heard DiscoLad then.

Oh well, in for a penny, in for a pound:

According to Stephen Fry's show, QI, Vatican City has two open secrets:

I'm in, (ante up)

...and 'Flobbadob' is Flowerpot in 'Oddle poddle' NOT the names they gave their farts!

Thanks Wikipedia!

Montana Smith · Jan 10, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
I'm in, (ante up)

...and 'Flobbadob' is Flowerpot in 'Oddle poddle' NOT the names they gave their farts!

Thanks Wikipedia!

The problem maybe too much Weed...

Babap ickle Weed.

Or something stronger.

Religion. Opium. People.

Rocket Surgeon · Jan 10, 2011

Montana Smith said:
The problem maybe too much Weed...

Babap ickle Weed.

Or something stronger.

Religion. Opium. People.

Yes, weed, religion, opium...long time residents on "The Things People Abuse" list.

Montana Smith · Jan 10, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
Yes, weed, religion, opium...long time residents on "The Things People Abuse" list.

"Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused"

Sweet Dreams said the priest to the choir boy. Come up and see my relics some day.

Rocket Surgeon · Jan 10, 2011

Montana Smith said:
"Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused"

Sweet Dreams said the priest to the choir boy. Come up and see my relics some day.

I heard about you and that man
There's just one thing I don't understand
You say he's a liar and he put out Your fire
How come you still got his gun in your hand?

Victim of love , I see a broken heart
You got your stories to tell
Victim of love, it's such an easy part
And you know how to play it so well

Montana Smith · Jan 10, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
I heard about you and that man
There's just one thing I don't understand
You say he's a liar and he put out Your fire
How come you still got his gun in your hand?

Victim of love , I see a broken heart
You got your stories to tell
Victim of love, it's such an easy part
And you know how to play it so well

You had something to hide
Should have hidden it, shouldn't you?
Now you're not satisfied
With what you're being put through

It's just time to pay the price
For not listening to advice
And deciding in your youth
On the policy of truth

Rocket Surgeon · Jan 10, 2011

Montana Smith said:
You had something to hide
Should have hidden it, shouldn't you?
Now you're not satisfied
With what you're being put through

It's just time to pay the price
For not listening to advice
And deciding in your youth
On the policy of truth

So you've tried
And you've made up your mind
Something's still not right
The devil you don't know is still outside

Montana Smith · Jan 10, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
So you've tried
And you've made up your mind
Something's still not right
The devil you don't know is still outside

Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world
And the seven seas--
Everybody's looking for something.

Rocket Surgeon · Jan 10, 2011

Montana Smith said:
Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world
And the seven seas--
Everybody's looking for something.

My wife, she has a hairy thing, a hairy thing, a hairy thing.
My wife, she has a hairy thing, she showed it to me Sunday.
She bought it in the furrier shop, bought it in the furrier shop, bought it in
The furrier shop.
It's going back on Monday.
Some say the devil is dead, the devil is dead, the devil is dead,
Some say the devil is dead and buried in Killarney.
More say he rose again, more say he rose again, more say he rose
Again,
And joined the British army.

Pale Horse · Jan 10, 2011

okay, we're just about as far away from Turin as we can get. Let's venture back, shall we....?

Rocket Surgeon · Jan 10, 2011

Pale Horse said:
okay, we're just about as far away from Turin as we can get. Let's venture back, shall we....?

Alright, though the sentiments still apply, it might...it may just escape the casual observer.

The Shroud could be a red herring and could; it just might be that Indy can make the connection between the dilemma of the shroud and the true objective of his competitor...

Montana Smith · Jan 10, 2011

Rocket Surgeon said:
Alright, though the sentiments still apply, it might...it may just escape the casual observer.

Like the Da Vinci Code.

All the words had a place.

Though the wife's hairy coat might require the annotated RS.

Finn · Jan 10, 2011

Pale Horse said:
okay, we're just about as far away from Turin as we can get. Let's venture back, shall we....?

And it all started from one innocuous observation... by a guy who hasn't even posted in the thread since.

Well, at least 'til now.

Not that I ever even meant that as a zing towards the immoralities of the modern church... they should not be held accountable of an ass pull performed by a pope long dead. (Besides, they've got a plenty hidden skeletons of their own.) The Holy See has been there for 13 centuries and counting, so if somebody did have a better moral claim to the lands, they've been a meal for worms long enough as well.

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