Elsa's Death

Would You Have Liked the Movie More if Elsa Had Lived?


  • Total voters
    69

nezobiwan

New member
Niteshade007 said:
Indy has actually witnessed someone's death as a result of reaching for the grail, and then repeats the same actions. Isn't that the definition of insanity? Repeating the same actions expecting different results.

Perhaps we are not seeing fault in your logic so much as we are in denial of Dr. Jones' stupidity/insanity?

:confused:

A possibility... but I still say that the lure of the grail is the basic flaw in your theory. It isn't the most sought-after relic in the history of Christianity for nothing. :D

And anyhow, maybe Jones needs to be a little on the crazy/stupid (stupid as in rash and risk-taking, not as in dull) side to do what he does?

Is that a nice cozy middle ground?
 

IndySeven

New member
sarah navarro said:
Only one way to put this "that hoe deserved to die "...no offense to Elsafan:p
Elsa did not deserve to die! She was way too hot, and if she was redeemed, it would've made a good ending.(y)
 

nezobiwan

New member
IndySeven said:
Elsa did not deserve to die! She was way too hot, and if she was redeemed, it would've made a good ending.(y)

It would have detracted from Indy's journey, which is the point of the movie.
 

electronemic

New member
Elsa is definitely one of those characters whose ambiguity lends to the question of whether she deserved the ultimate punishment for her acts. There is certainly no forum thread (that I have seen anyway) entitled, "Did Donovan deserve to die?"

I think her death creates both a sense of tragedy and poetic justice at the same time. To see a bright, young woman come so far in the film, only to lose her life at the very end, definitely appeals to a more sympathetic chord. It's sad to see someone so twisted by greed and obsession that it leads to their demise. Not to mention her hand could almost reach the grail. If she had just a little bit more time and had not been wearing gloves, or stretched just an inch or so more, she might have grasped it and lived.

Meanwhile, one can get the sense that Elsa was "getting what she deserved" by seeing this object of purity as an opportunity for material gain. In a sense she was destroyed for her blasphemy and lack of faith.

As it stands, I think the movie is better off as it is. It is a great scene that should make us all question just how much we're willing to risk in order to reach what we most desire, and also what desires are worth reaching for in the first place. Elsa's death shows us the erroneous philosophy of sacrificing spirituality for materialism, and is obviously a moral the viewer can see. I feel bad for her character, but to suggest changing the ending would detract from its message and power.
 

AnythingGoes

New member
LC has always been my least favorite of the original trilogy! Though, letting Elsa die was a strong point. It illustrated how being distracted by greed leads to one's downfall, Indy is nearly caught in the same trap but his father finally comes to terms with him and so Indy realizes that the family that he has always cut himself off from really is more important then Fortune and Glory.
:whip:
 

Cole

New member
AnythingGoes said:
LC has always been my least favorite of the original trilogy! Though, letting Elsa die was a strong point. It illustrated how being distracted by greed leads to one's downfall, Indy is nearly caught in the same trap but his father finally comes to terms with him and so Indy realizes that the family that he has always cut himself off from really is more important then Fortune and Glory.
:whip:
'Last Crusade' is probably my favorite of the trilogy........and you hit the nail on the head in what I wanted to bring up.

The way Indy and Elsa reverse positions - with Indy now trying to grab the cup - and Henry Sr. finally gets his son's attention by calling him "Indiana" for the first time in the film........man, what a beautiful moment. Extraordinary - from the writing, to the music, to the acting - everything.

Elsa's death is a necessity to make it happen.

I see similar traits in Belloq, Elsa, and Mac.......neither are nescessarily "evil," but they are willing to betray Indy out of greed. In archeology, there's a fine line between nobility and greed. That's what Indy's character arch in 'Temple of Doom' is about.

It's also worth noting in all 4 Indiana Jones films, Indy never "gets" the artifacts or its powers..........instead, he comes away with a realization of personal relationships - his "true" prize so to speak.
 

Matt deMille

New member
Elsa's death helped on a much simpler movie level too

Cole, you'd very much appreciate the ending to my Indy 5 script.

Back to topic, I think Elsa's death added an extra dimension to Last Crusade that it greatly needed. In pure, simple, cinematic terms, it helped stage the scene and excite the audience.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love all four films, but I think Last Crusade is slightly overrated at times, mostly because so much of it is a retread of Raiders -- There's not as much originality in it. Same villains, same locales, same gags half the time.

But the leading lady dying was something no other Indy movie -- and few adventure movies in general -- can lay claim to. Elsa's death, for all its other filmisophical reasons, also gave us a whopping surprise which ratcheted up the drama of the scene. Imagine if she lived. The Grail would just be there in a ditch, and we'd have no reason to believe Indy couldn't get it. Moreover, when he couldn't, we think him a bigger idiot than someone trying to do what just got someone else killed.

Back to Elsa. Nobody expected her to die. I'm sure everyone seeing this movie the first time expected her to live because . . . leading ladies live. The thought that she'd die never entered our minds. But when she fell, suddenly you begin to worry about everyone. That Indy *might* fall himself is suddenly credible, believable, and we fear for him, even if he *is* the unkillable hero in a heroic adventure movie.

There are many layers going on at any time in a good movie, Last Crusade being no exception. And many on this thread have brought up great points, usually ones wiser and more subtle than mine here. So I'm just taking the surface reason, the moviemaking reason: Elsa's death was good because audiences like to think they *know* what's going to happen, and when they're surprised, it's good for the excitement factor (Henry Sr. being shot was good for this same reason, in addition to the additional subtle layers of redemption and such).
 

AnythingGoes

New member
Matt deMille said:
But the leading lady dying was something no other Indy movie -- and few adventure movies in general -- can lay claim to. Elsa's death, for all its other filmisophical reasons, also gave us a whopping surprise which ratcheted up the drama of the scene. Imagine if she lived. The Grail would just be there in a ditch, and we'd have no reason to believe Indy couldn't get it. Moreover, when he couldn't, we think him a bigger idiot than someone trying to do what just got someone else killed.

Back to Elsa. Nobody expected her to die. I'm sure everyone seeing this movie the first time expected her to live because . . . leading ladies live. The thought that she'd die never entered our minds. But when she fell, suddenly you begin to worry about everyone. That Indy *might* fall himself is suddenly credible, believable, and we fear for him, even if he *is* the unkillable hero in a heroic adventure movie.
I quite agree with you there, Matt! In the days of my youth when I first saw LC I was so bloody shocked to find that Elsa was a Nazi...AND THEN SHE DIED!
And when Indy's about to fall...well, it {at the time} was the last Indy film so Indy might have died...that creates a real air of suspence that is unprecedented in the other films.
:whip:
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Attila the Professor said:
She had to die...the Indy films allow some moral ambiguity, especially throughout the film, but by the end...she couldn't have lived.

Yeah, it was sort of like Mac. She switched sides so many times she really had no place in the world left. I don't think Elsa, unlike Mac, realized that though.
She had no sense of morals--We're never shown her having any really, whereas at least with Mac he must've had morals at one time but with his bad lack combined with the confusion of the Cold War he lost track of who he was, of what side he was on. He's actually more of a likable character in that sense than Elsa--He lets himself go and 'die' in the end, because he knows really he's lost who he was.

The only side Elsa was on, throughout the film, was Elsa's, and she never even attempted to repent.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Raiders112390 said:
The only side Elsa was on, throughout the film, was Elsa's, and she never even attempted to repent.

I think this was the intention, but it's something that gets overlooked, and Elsa gets branded just another Nazi character.

The way I see it she would jump into bed with the Nazis or the Jones boys just to achieve her ambition. At the end she even chooses to die for that ambition: rather than seducing the Jones boys, she was the one who was seduced from the beginning by the idea of the Grail.
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
I think this was the intention, but it's something that gets overlooked, and Elsa gets branded just another Nazi character.

The way I see it she would jump into bed with the Nazis or the Jones boys just to achieve her ambition. At the end she even chooses to die for that ambition: rather than seducing the Jones boys, she was the one who was seduced from the beginning by the idea of the Grail.

I think part of the message of the film--As said explicitly by the Knight--is that everything comes with a price. To achieve immortality, you essentially had to give up your worldly life--Remain within the temple, forever.

Unlike the Ark, the Grail was no 'treasure' or weapon, it had no real use, it was a metaphor, a test..Or a challenge, from God. A test as to who you are, what matters to you, what you believe.

Like Kazim asks Indy, "Why do you seek the cup of Christ? Is it for his glory..or for yours?"

Elsa's greed came with a price too. And so did Henry's ''illumination''--Nearly literally losing his son who attempts to rescue the very thing Henry emotionally cast aside (and lost) his son over. Even though Henry is portrayed as a good guy, I think he (like Indy in Temple) goes through a transformation in that very scene in the Temple--He goes from Grail obsessed scholar, a medievally minded bookworm who cares more about the destruction of a Ming dynasty vase than the damage it might've done to his son's head--To actually leaving behind something he's spent practically his whole life searching for, in that final moment when it was inches away--to save his son.

(An interesting thing to note here is that the whole message of Christ as per Christianity is one of sacrifice--That God sacrificed his only son for the benefit of mankind)

While it's not as serious or dark or mysterious as ROTLA, LC does have a lot more emotional depth--There's a lot of layers and subtext here. It's a quest like no other--A quest of not what lies in some hidden tomb or barrow, but a quest to discover what lies within--What lies within Indy, what lies within Henry.

Henry or Indy's relationship with Henry is actually in some ways the main character or point of the film. He's the Don Corleone of LC--He isn't in actuality the star or isn't really in that many scenes, but his shadow looms over the whole film. Throughout most of the film Indy is only interested in physically finding his father--That's what the first half of the movie is. And finally, after rescuing him Indy, only at Henry's insistence goes after the Grail--Henry's emotion--and in doing so finds his father's love--Something I don't think Indy truly knew he had until those crucial moments in the Temple.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Raiders112390 said:
Yeah, it was sort of like Mac. She switched sides so many times she really had no place in the world left. I don't think Elsa, unlike Mac, realized that though.
She had no sense of morals--We're never shown her having any really, whereas at least with Mac he must've had morals at one time but with his bad lack combined with the confusion of the Cold War he lost track of who he was, of what side he was on. He's actually more of a likable character in that sense than Elsa--He lets himself go and 'die' in the end, because he knows really he's lost who he was.

That's a really nice distinction. I like that.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Attila the Professor said:
That's a really nice distinction. I like that.

It is, and I think we can go further with it.

Mac went over to the Russians out of desperate need for money. Whether that's an act of greed, I don't know. I think he'd accumulated gambling debts, which would imply an uncontrolled addiction. He obviously didn't align himself with the Communist ideal, and the Russians would be fully aware of that: they were using him, as much as he was using them for money.

Elsa went over to the Nazi Party out of her desperate need to obtain the Grail. There's no indication that she believed in Nazi ideals. It was a marriage of convenience which would lead her to the Grail, which had become her own addiction.

Henry was also addicted to locating the Grail, and this was greatly responsible for driving a wedge between himself and Indy.

When the ground opens up and the Grail falls inside, it is Indy who almost succumbs to addiction by reaching down for it.

So, this film is dealing with the idea of "addiction", which the characters must overcome so that they may move on. It's the moral of the tale that there are things more valuable than material possession. Donovan proved that by drinking from the most elaborate and valuable looking Grail Cup...
 

Exulted Unicron

New member
I think alot of people here have hit the nail on the head. Elsa wasn;t technically evil, infact, if you look at it one way, Elsa was more or less a female Belloq. She used both Henry Sr and Indy to get what she wanted, the Grail.

Her death was a marked event. Just earlier, she seemed horrified by the Germans massacring the Grail Brotherhood in the Canyon as she gripped the dying Kazim. It was obvious right at the end that she was only in it for the true prize....The Grail. Even going as far as betraying her bosses, Donovan and the Nazis to get it.

If Elsa was allowed to live, the film would have been ruined. Her death showed that her greed was her downfall, as it was almost the same for Indy. Sure, she wasn't far off grabbing the grail and could have got it if she had a little more time. Same for Indy, but Indy realised he had the bigger prize than the Grail. He had his father back.
 

Brooke Logan

New member
I like to think there's a possibility she survived. Like in a soap opera, where if you don't see a corpse, the character can come back, it would be cool to think she survived and could come back into Indy's life someday.:)
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Brooke Logan said:
I like to think there's a possibility she survived. Like in a soap opera, where if you don't see a corpse, the character can come back, it would be cool to think she survived and could come back into Indy's life someday.:)

...bringing Spalko and Willie with her...

At that point we'll see whether old Indy's still got what it takes. ;)
 

Brooke Logan

New member
Montana Smith said:
...bringing Spalko and Willie with her...

At that point we'll see whether old Indy's still got what it takes. ;)

Yes! Sounds good to me.:D

If Elsa had lived I think she could have ended up being Indy's wife. I think he really did care for her and they were equals in a lot of ways. She would definitely be able to give Marion a run for her money imo. And I think Elsa definitely loved Indy.

Although it would have been weird since she had sex with his father. But hey, that happens all the time in soap operas!

In any case, I think the writers felt it was best to kill Elsa off at the end.

That won't stop me from fantasizing that she didn't really die. People in the Indy movies have survived things more dangerous than her fall. I can dream...;)
 

Webley

New member
How do we know if Elsa is dead we see her fall we do not see her die she could have fell into water.:confused:
 

Brooke Logan

New member
That's what I'm saying!XD Just like in the soaps, if you don't see a body, you can't be certain that character is dead.:cool: Elsa could definitely have the door left open to come back if this was a soap opera.
She had no sense of morals--We're never shown her having any really,

Well she does seem to care for Indy, and when Henry is shot she is upset. She betrays Donovan to help Indy.

She also didn't like watching the Nazis burning books.

I don't think she is totally without feelings or morality, she just let her greed for the grail take over.
 
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