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Old 10-02-2008, 04:50 PM   #76
Canyon
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All I can say about this thread is, whoah!

Geez. I'm out of it for a little while, and everyone gets delusions of grandeur!
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Old 08-08-2011, 06:27 PM   #77
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I know I'm crashing the party late, but several years ago I did actually discover the inspiration for Struzan's portrait of Deirdre (quite by accident) while conducting research for a story that I was writing. On page 107 of the Time-Life 'Our American Century' series book, The Jazz Age, I was astonished to see a very familiar face looking back at me:



As it turns out, Indy's fair wife is portrayed by a 1920's female golf pro named Glenna Collett! Struzan made her features look a bit more Scottish, but the resemblance is uncanny. This is clearly the photo that he used for Deirdre.
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:19 PM   #78
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:49 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipwarrior
I know I'm crashing the party late, but several years ago I did actually discover the inspiration for Struzan's portrait of Deirdre (quite by accident) while conducting research for a story that I was writing. On page 107 of the Time-Life 'Our American Century' series book, The Jazz Age, I was astonished to see a very familiar face looking back at me:



As it turns out, Indy's fair wife is portrayed by a 1920's female golf pro named Glenna Collett! Struzan made her features look a bit more Scottish, but the resemblance is uncanny. This is clearly the photo that he used for Deirdre.

I came to this thread late as well. If it wasn't for your post I don't think I would have seen it. That's a great find, whipwarrior, and thanks for posting it.

I haven't read any of the non-movie novels, so I had to dig up the cover to put your picture into context:



Reading Deirdre's biography on the Indy Wikia made me think of Bond cradling Tracy's body at the end of On Her Majesty's Secret Service. A turning point in Indy's life...

Now I should read the rest of this thread.

EDIT: Having now read the thread (oh, and great posting back there Stoo!), this from Struzan is interesting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shipwreck
and now for that reply from artist Drew Struzan:

I needed a girl to support the story and one from the period in style or looks. This girl fit the bill for me where ever she came from and I never looked back. Blow me down if there isn't any more to it than that and if I don't have memory on anything more specific. If she is fulfilling someone's fantasy or is some kind of inspiration to another, so much the better.

Last edited by Montana Smith : 08-09-2011 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:11 AM   #80
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Yeah, I also e-mailed Struzan many years ago to ask who the model for Deirdre was, and he said that he didn't remember, or something like that. I also got the same answer when I asked about Gale Parker on the cover of Indiana Jones and the Sky Pirates. Later, I learned that Gale was based on Amelia Earhart, which is quite obvious when you compare the pictures. While the artwork is legendary to us fans, it was just one of many jobs for the prolific artist, so we can't fault Struzan for a bad memory considering that he painted those Indy covers nearly two decades ago.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:06 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipwarrior
Yeah, I also e-mailed Struzan many years ago to ask who the model for Deirdre was, and he said that he didn't remember, or something like that. I also got the same answer when I asked about Gale Parker on the cover of Indiana Jones and the Sky Pirates. Later, I learned that Gale was based on Amelia Earhart, which is quite obvious when you compare the pictures. While the artwork is legendary to us fans, it was just one of many jobs for the prolific artist, so we can't fault Struzan for a bad memory considering that he painted those Indy covers nearly two decades ago.

Yes, Struzan probably assembled a huge amount of photos for source material for his commissions, and once removed from their original books and magazines it would be difficult to remember who was who, or where they came from.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:44 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipwarrior

Great, great find. Incidentally, is this material anything you still have on hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whipwarrior
If anyone is interested, here is an in-depth interview that I conducted with Rob MacGregor about Seven Veils. Warning: contains spoilers if you haven't read it. Enjoy!

Montana, posting that image has me struggling to remember whether that mask or statue has any role in the story. The Matt Busch map sure includes it. (And I do quite recommend the 12 Bantam novels. They're a good time, and you can pick up all those trade paperbacks for less than any of your action figure purchases.)

And...

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Originally Posted by Violet
But, here's the thing I don't get... In Raiders, it has been 10 years since Marion last saw Indy... That makes it 1926. He married Deirdre in 1925 if memory serves. After what happened with Deirdre, how could Indy have had a fling if he was sooooo upset about Deirdre's death? Did Marion remind him of Deirdre, because she was young and an archaeologist's daughter?

I was recently exploring this issue at Rocket's prompting, in this post and the surrounding posts. As Rocket suggests, Deirdre sounding so similar to Marion certainly complicates the issue.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:02 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
Montana, posting that image has me struggling to remember whether that mask or statue has any role in the story. The Matt Busch map sure includes it. (And I do quite recommend the 12 Bantam novels. They're a good time, and you can pick up all those trade paperbacks for less than any of your action figure purchases.)

I got as far as making a list of the 12 novels this morning, after reading whipwarrior's post. It is about time I read these!

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Old 08-09-2011, 09:13 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I got as far as making a list of the 12 novels this morning, after reading whipwarrior's post. It is about time I read these!


It's been the better part of a decade since I've read them. Maybe we can entice a few of the others into having a go at it, get a little book club going.
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:49 PM   #85
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Great, great find. Incidentally, is this material anything you still have on hand?

I originally checked the book out of the public library sometime in 2008. I scanned the image, and returned the book. Then, by sheer coincidence, someone gave me a brand new copy of the very same book as a Christmas gift that year, so I still have it on-hand. I can provide you with a high-quality scan, if you like. Just say the word!
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:41 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipwarrior
I originally checked the book out of the public library sometime in 2008. I scanned the image, and returned the book. Then, by sheer coincidence, someone gave me a brand new copy of the very same book as a Christmas gift that year, so I still have it on-hand. I can provide you with a high-quality scan, if you like. Just say the word!

Sorry, my copy-and-pasting was unclear there. I actually meant your MacGregor interview. (Of course, the story of MacGregor taking a look at the beginning of your novel is impressive as well, for those who haven't heard it.)
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:21 AM   #87
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Yeah, I had to mirror my old website when GeoCities shut down in 2009, but the original interview is intact right here: http://newsradiofanfic.angelfire.com/seven_veils.html
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Old 08-18-2011, 02:29 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipwarrior
As it turns out, Indy's fair wife is portrayed by a 1920's female golf pro named Glenna Collett! Struzan made her features look a bit more Scottish, but the resemblance is uncanny. This is clearly the photo that he used for Deirdre.
What an amazing discovery, Mr. Whipwarrior! Never in a million years would I have imagined that someone would find the source for Deirdre's face. Without a doubt, this is the basis for Drew's rendering. I am truly stunned that you stumbled upon it by accident and THANK YOU so much for posting the image.

But I must ask, what do you mean by making "her features look a bit more Scottish"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
EDIT: Having now read the thread (oh, and great posting back there Stoo!),...
It makes sense but it also might be an intentional twisting of context to suit a certain agenda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I got as far as making a list of the 12 novels this morning, after reading whipwarrior's post. It is about time I read these!
Seriously, Smiff. What are you waiting for? A rainy day in Indyland?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
...you can pick up all those trade paperbacks for less than any of your action figure purchases.)
Quoted for truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
I was recently exploring this issue at Rocket's prompting, in this post and the surrounding posts. As Rocket suggests, Deirdre sounding so similar to Marion certainly complicates the issue.
The 1926 Marion/Deirdre conundrum is a chronological quagmire.
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Old 08-18-2011, 05:47 PM   #89
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If you compare the original photo and the painted version, it appears that Struzan made her lips a bit fuller, and gave Deirdre a suitably doe-eyed look, with longer eyelashes. I don't know, she just looks more Scottish to me. I wish I had a better answer!
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:23 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Stoo
What an amazing discovery, Mr. Whipwarrior! Never in a million years would I have imagined that someone would find the source for Deirdre's face. Without a doubt, this is the basis for Drew's rendering. I am truly stunned that you stumbled upon it by accident and THANK YOU so much for posting the image.

But I must ask, what do you mean by making "her features look a bit more Scottish"?
It makes sense but it also might be an intentional twisting of context to suit a certain agenda.
Seriously, Smiff. What are you waiting for? A rainy day in Indyland?
Quoted for truth.
The 1926 Marion/Deirdre conundrum is a chronological quagmire.

It's not necesarrily a chronological quagmire. Deidre dies in April 1926, right? That leaves the entire rest of 1926 for Indy to have an affair with Marion. It doesn't even have to be a long affair; a brief, passionate affair that's Marion's first love, and Indy at first being on an emotional rebound with a girl who reminded him of a young Deidre and eventually falling in love with her. And it abruptly ending, severing his friendship with Abner.

Remember, Indy's been through a lot romantically up to 1926. He's had his first adult love turn him down at the idea of marriage (which shows Indy was indeed willing to get married as early as 17 years old), his first lover be killed for supposedly being a spy, his beloved fiancee dying due to being mistaken for him, betrayals by other women.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:38 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
It's not necesarrily a chronological quagmire. Deidre dies in April 1926, right? That leaves the entire rest of 1926 for Indy to have an affair with Marion. It doesn't even have to be a long affair; a brief, passionate affair that's Marion's first love, and Indy at first being on an emotional rebound with a girl who reminded him of a young Deidre and eventually falling in love with her. And it abruptly ending, severing his friendship with Abner.

Remember, Indy's been through a lot romantically up to 1926. He's had his first adult love turn him down at the idea of marriage (which shows Indy was indeed willing to get married as early as 17 years old), his first lover be killed for supposedly being a spy, his beloved fiancee dying due to being mistaken for him, betrayals by other women.

You're not wrong, and your accounting of his romantic history is both well-taken and, frankly, somewhat explanatory with regards to the disposable way he handles women as time goes on. (Obviously, circumstance is a factor here as well, but Kingdom of the Crystal Skull leaves the less literal form of his "trail of human wreckage" in a canonical state.)

Still, I think it nevertheless throws the legitimacy of his love for Marion into question if their affair is to be seen as having taken place shortly after the death of his first wife, the one woman in the canon who is most similar to Miss Ravenwood.
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Old 09-29-2011, 01:05 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
You're not wrong, and your accounting of his romantic history is both well-taken and, frankly, somewhat explanatory with regards to the disposable way he handles women as time goes on. (Obviously, circumstance is a factor here as well, but Kingdom of the Crystal Skull leaves the less literal form of his "trail of human wreckage" in a canonical state.)

Still, I think it nevertheless throws the legitimacy of his love for Marion into question if their affair is to be seen as having taken place shortly after the death of his first wife, the one woman in the canon who is most similar to Miss Ravenwood.

I tend to think that he did/does love her--Maybe her Deidre-ish qualities first attracted him to her and then her own, tomboyish yet sweet nature made himfall in love with her for her, plus whatever experiences they had in 1926.
And she would've loved him for the obvious reasons--A handsome, adventurous war hero.

It's possible that her father wasn't the proto Indy some think, but something like a more understanding, less stuffy version of Henry as well as an archaeologist--which is why Indy took to him and regarded him as a friend and (it's implied) as a father figure. Or perhaps he was like a more sophisticated version of Fedora and he's the one who taught Indy how to be an "obtainer of rare antiquities" and maintain the outward (and perhaps inward) appearance of decency by being an academic--and not simply being a grave robber. Notice how even in KOTCS, Indy finds the label of "grave robber" offensive--He obviously doesn't view himself as one.

He might've loved her innocence after 10 years of world war, betrayal, intrique and nearly being killed and watching lovers die. At 16, she may have been tough but in a cute, young sort of way, and he might've fallen for that. A piece of niceness in a world that seemed more and more dark.

Maybe the reason he and Abner fell out isn't because Indy romanced his daughter, but because he LEFTher. Maybe in 1926 he really did begin falling for her, and she for him, but knowing what happened with Deidre and not wanting the same to happen to her, he broke up with her--and severely broke her heart in doing so, leading to tension and eventually a very bitter falling out with Abner. But as her first, young love, she never stopped loving him as we saw.

To be honest, I don't think Marion was on Indy's radar until 1936. I think, like a lot of other painful memories, he buried her emotionally, as an old wound, and moved on. Like he did with Molly and so many others. And then in 1936 circumstance made it so he HAD to see her...He even seems apprehensive at the thought of having to see her. "Suppose she'll still be with him?" to which Marcus assures him that Marion is the least of his worries...Marcus probably emotionally helped him through that affair as another fatherly figure since he and Henry weren't speaking in 1926.

Personally, I always felt that Marion was shoehorned as the "love of Indy's life" and eventually his wife simply due to the fact that Spielberg and Lucas got bored and wouldn't take the risk of inventing a new woman for Indy in Indy 4, and for whatever reason felt they needed to show Indy get married. I think it was simply fanservice and a way to make fans think of Raiders, thus hopefully prodding at nostalgic feelings and enhancing their love of KOTCS. She was simply fan service because none of the other Indy women (in the movies) seem on her level by the fans. I don't think Indy should've ever been shown being married nor do I think he should be tied to one woman, or have a son.

It complicates future stories and takes away one of the core aspects of his character--Indy as hunky ladies' man who has a different girl every movie like Bond. That was the original conception going forward for Indy. They even wanted to go so far as to make him a playboy, but toned it down to having a different girl every movie-and KOTCS shouldn't have removed that aspect of his character. In a lot of ways, KOTCS removed most of Indy's rogue-ish qualities, but that's another discussion.
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