Remaining Jewish and Christian Relics

WillKill4Food

New member
Moedred said:
...The villain believed it could resurrect...
That makes sense.

Moedred said:
...The tale does not interfere with history as we know it...
Didn't your story have the Nazis in possesion of the Shroud? I thought that the Shroud had been in the same place for ages.

In regards to religious discussion, I'll only say this.
I am a Christian.
But realize that you don't have to read the Creation story as literal to have faith in Christ.
In my mind, the Creation story is allegorical, and that's about the only way you can interpret it without suspending your credibility.
Evolution, the Big Bang, and the whole of science don't necessarily contradict the Bible, unless you make them. Attribute the metaphorical "Let there be light" to the Big Bang, the order of Creation to evolution, etc., etc., and you don't have a problem.
Besides, given the age of the text, you have to consider that the Bible we read is most likely not a perfect translation, and thus many of the more trifling discussions over wording are irrelevant.
Now, sure, the Bible uses the word "created" instead of "evolved," but think about it this way: When you "create" a figurine, a statue, or whatever out of wood or clay, what do you do? Do you just blink, and, suddenly, it's there - perfect?
No, of course not.
You shape it, with a knife, your hands, or what have you. The Bible that many of you so admire says that we were made in His image. If that is true (and, obviously, "His image" means "like him" or "in a similar fashion to Him," as I doubt that God has much need for a nose, eyes, ears or face), then, in the same way, I think that evolution (change over time) is God's way of fashioning life on Earth such that He is the intelligent designer.
Well, at least, that is my view.
Of course, the order of Creation given in the Bible has birds being created (or, depending on your view, evolved) before other land animals. Wait! Didn't the dinosaurs and other reptiles and sauropods populate the planet before birds? Well, yes. But, there are two ways that the Christian can excuse this.
As we have established, even if you believe the Bible to be the divine Word of God, you have to consider that surely some things have been lost in translation. So, we can't be at all sure that the original text had birds being created earlier than other land animals.
But, the second way to think about this considers scientific evidence. Many paleontologists agree that it appears that the dinosaurs were the ancestors of - guess what! - birds. This has been further validated by the finding of stems of feathers in small predatory dinosaurs and the skeletal systems of certain dinosaurs. It also appears that dinosaurs were warm-blooded, unlike reptiles. This gives a strong case for dinosaurs (who were the earliest land animals along with amphibians) being the birds that were created (or, in my view, evolved) directly succeeding the creation (or evolution) of sea creatures. So, the sea creatures include fish, single-celled organisms, etc., etc., on down the evolutionary timeline, along with the amphibians who first crawled on land. These amphibians would have evolved into dinosaurs, who then evolved into birds, meaning that, if God did indeed give man the Word of Genesis and the Creation, the dinosaurs were simply birds. This explanation, though completely my own and I have not seen it anywhere else, period, shows that evolution and science do not contradict the Bible.
One thing though, I seem to remember birds being described as "the fowl of the air" in the KJV Bible. But, this does not serve to mean that this creation simply refers birds with the ability to fly. Given the flourish-filled style of English prose at the time of the translation, it is highly likely that the original text, whether in Latin, or before that Greek, or before that Hebrew, indicated simply "birds" in general. And, of course, anything related to a bird can be included as a bird, and thus the above explanation is not implausible.

Nevertheless, between science and blind religion, I think that science is the more credible of the two, as, excepting certain theories, science is purely empirical (and thus palpable and provable) as opposed to the transcendence of God, whose existence cannot be proven or disproven.

By the way,
should be "a lot." :D
 

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
WillKill4Food said:
I thought that the Shroud had been in the same place for ages.
In Turin, since 1578. In my fiction it was taken by Mussolini who was a puppet ruler of Northern Italy at the end of WWII. The Pope requested Allied help to retrieve it, and it was quetly repatriated a week or two later. I've revised the tale somewhat since, removing the Papal Swiss Guards and adding Mac for KotCS compliance. The purpose of the teaser is to introduce Indy's Vatican scholar buddy Rimsky, who over the next 17 years shares secret information setting up the search for the main macguffin.
 

Ray Hare

New member
This is just a bit of the scene that explains the discovery of The Cross based on its actual legend.

Its Indy talking to Thorne...Indy:"There are a number of stories but most scholars agree that it was discovered by the mother of Constantine, Helene, after he converted the Roman Empire to Christianity around 337AD. It seems to have gone missing after the battle of Hattin in 1187AD when the Muslims under Saladin occupied Jerusalem".

Thorne: "Lost? not according to Ryan or the Chinese...the power of the Cross is not to be taken lightly. There was actually three crosses Helene had to choose from. So a dying woman was placed on them. When her body was laid on the true cross her health was restored. This is a mere fraction of its wonder. Professor Jones the army who holds the Cross before them conquers all who stand in their way. If it falls into less savoury hands, the world as we desire it, will be all but a passing memory."

How's that? :whip:
 

kongisking

Active member
indyt said:
Crystal skulls have been done in the EU

But KOTCS' Skull was a totally different thing. Even Indy admitted it, in Ox's cell: "This is NOT the Mitchell-Hedges skull..."
 

sandiegojones

New member
I do not think another Jewish or Christian relic would be used. It seems they try to use different cultures in every film. Spielberg & Lucas might be afraid to use a Muslim artifact because of the "reaction" they may get (you know, like the Mohammed fiasco).

I think they should perhaps go to southeast Asia (Thailand, Vietnam) and/or Africa.

Again, the villain has to match the artifact. Some artifacts are cool, but Indy is tied to history. Nazi's really wanted religious artificats and Soviets were seeking mind control objects. At the time these films take place these villians were prominent in the world. The Thuggee story is not realy time specific because it's more tribal. They may go that way again, otherwise I think it will have to be the Soviets again (maybe the Chinese, but I don't think SS will go that route either given his history with working with the Chinese). I was also considering Cuban Communists who are aided by Soviets as villains (but again SS has a history there).

I was thinking Indy V could begin with Indy in Cuba looking for some artifact (Spanish rulers inhabited the island so perhaps there are Aztec treasures or maybe even some African treasure since the Spanish ran the slave trade out of Cuba?) and then he gets caught up in the Communist Revolution (New Years Eve 1958), gets his artifact taken away (a' la Belloq) and has to escape the island. Once he returns home to Marshall College the real plot is introduced. McCarthyism was just about over then so Indy wouldn't have FBI issues again from being in Cuba, but maybe this time the Fed's wan't Indy to persue an artifact they believe the Cubans are after in Africa. The Cubans were given financial and military aid by the USSR and they DID have relationships with other governments in Africa that were revolutionary.

I think it could tie together, the artifact itself is not that important. It's the journey.

Just a thought.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Moedred said:
Thanks for reading! I made it the nonmagical teaser macguffin. The villain believed it could resurrect. The tale does not interfere with history as we know it..

Have you read "The Second Messiah" by Knight and Lomas? Fascinating. Tie the Templars to the Myth of the Cross.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
I was going to let the subject about faith, science, etc. drop because, yeah, this is just a fun, frivolous discussion about Indy movies, no need to bring up such contentious issues in the context of a pleasant movie conversation.

However, I will only say this -

IndyFan89 said:
Yes they are or you wouldn't be debating them would you?

I wasn't debating them, I was stating them. Yours is a fallacious argument on its face.

They're are millions of debates over said "facts" that you say are not arguable. Hypothesis is not fact it's opinion.

No, there are not.

Back to Indy -

I find the idea of using another Judeo-Christian artifact to be, well, boring and unimaginative. They've gone to that well twice already and many people, even its biggest fans, consider "Last Crusade" to be far too similar to "Raiders" as a result.

At least "Crystal Skull" was a departure from that formula, despite its many weaknesses. Love it or hate it, "Temple of Doom" was a very different film from what came before and came after. (Personally, that's one of the reasons why I love it.)

There is a vast, fascinating tapestry of history and mythology from all over the world and all eras to draw upon. Surely they could find something that feels fresher and doesn't feel like yet another retread of the "Raiders" template.
 

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
Pale Horse said:
Tie the Templars to the Myth of the Cross.
I tried working the Templars in once... I just can't bring myself to assign magical powers to every relic. That's why I made the Shroud a teaser macguffin. Like the Cross of Coronado, sometime a cross is just a cross.

I was half joking about the holy prepuce. But at least I brought something to the table, which is the point of this thread. How to build adventures around Christ's hair, blood, fingernails, baby teeth, or umbilicus... Maybe the fingernails have bread loaf crumbs beneath them which could be divided infinitely? Lutherans might want the umbilicus to sever the Catholic connection to Mary, Mormons might want it for genetic testing. Then there's cloning... not very 20th century, though.
 

sandiegojones

New member
Moedred said:
I tried working the Templars in once... I just can't bring myself to assign magical powers to every relic. That's why I made the Shroud a teaser macguffin. Like the Cross of Coronado, sometime a cross is just a cross.

I was half joking about the holy prepuce. But at least I brought something to the table, which is the point of this thread. How to build adventures around Christ's hair, blood, fingernails, baby teeth, or umbilicus... Maybe the fingernails have bread loaf crumbs beneath them which could be divided infinitely? Lutherans might want the umbilicus to sever the Catholic connection to Mary, Mormons might want it for genetic testing. Then there's cloning... not very 20th century, though.
Hey, if we go with Mormons Indy can search for the "Golden Plates":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates

Indy could put the seer stones in his hat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stones_and_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement) to find the plates! Indy could get another wife too (just kidding all you Mormons!).

JosephSmithTranslating.jpg


Another intersting side note about Mormons is that they believe Jesus "visited" the Americas (even though they hadn't been "discovered" yet) after his resurection and that the Garden of Eden was located in what is now the state of Missouri. They also state that Jesus had deemed the the Americas as the new land of freedom loving people and would be the "New Jerusalem". This explains the Conquistadors spreading Christianity and the eventual creation of the United States.

Some also believe that Jesus may have been the Aztec God Quetzalcoatl who was said to have fair skin, blue eyes and a beard. If the Aztecs had never seen such a person (unless they had been visted by Jesus) then where did they get such an idea? This description is why the Aztecs (and to some extent the Mayans) thought that Hernan Cortez was Quetzalcoatl when the Spanish arrived in Central America. He looked like their God. It's an intersting theory even if unbelievable, but hey we're talking about a movie plot.

Seer stones, golden plates, the garden of eden and Jesus as an Aztec God has not been done before!
 
Last edited:

DIrishB

New member
Ideally, I'd like to see Indy chase after or be involved with some type of Islamic relic, to continue the tradition of focusing on different belief systems with each film. I've been researching possible candidates, but I haven't found anything which seems just right, yet. The best I can find is The Sacred Trusts, more specifically Muhammad's swords or bow.
 

Plaristes

New member
DIrishB said:
Ideally, I'd like to see Indy chase after or be involved with some type of Islamic relic, to continue the tradition of focusing on different belief systems with each film. I've been researching possible candidates, but I haven't found anything which seems just right, yet. The best I can find is The Sacred Trusts, more specifically Muhammad's swords or bow.

How about one of the original transcriptions that was used when compiling the Qur'an? They were supposed to have been destroyed, but maybe...
 

sandiegojones

New member
What about the "magic carpet" that Muhammad rode from Mecca to Jerusalem when he was given his vision from the Angel Gabriel? That could be fun! (y)

"You don't know what you can find, why don't you come with my Indy, on a magic carpet ride..."
 

IndyFan89

Member
Lance Quazar said:
No, there are not.
Why are you still debating?


Anyways, the Raiders feel is what we need for the last film to sort of Bookend the series, the most popular films is LC and Raiders according to the polls. So I'm safe to assume that most like that feel there for I think they should return to that style.

The artifacts is minor though compared to action and usage of set pieces. Honestly i feel like there wasn't enough or the right kind of action in CS, I can't put my finger on it.

Something like the tank scene in LC is what I'm looking for. That was Bad ass.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
IndyFan89 said:
Why are you still debating?

You obviously are unclear as to the definition of the word "debate."

Anyways, the Raiders feel is what we need for the last film to sort of Bookend the series, the most popular films is LC and Raiders according to the polls. So I'm safe to assume that most like that feel there for I think they should return to that style.

Bringing the franchise backwards (again) is a terrible idea. Why rehash "raiders" since we've already done that with "crusade." God forbid they try to do something fresh and unexpected and daring.

The Indiana Jones character has far more potential than you apparently given him credit for.

I'd rather see nothing at all than a copy of a copy.

The last thing this franchise needs is to be denigrated further with another lousy sequel.
 

IndyFan89

Member
I don't want to see Indy taken in a new direction, If i wanted a new direction I would go watch another movie franchise. I want another Indy movie which means something similar but not the same story line. Get it?

I'm not talking about the artifact, Temple of Doom was better than KOCS and it didn't have a biblical MacGuffin. I'm talking about the feel of the film.

Listen, I'm a Christian, but I'm fair, there is nothing wrong with good clean fun. I'm not saying "All Indy movies should have MacGuffins from the bible or they are not good.", I'm simply stating the Raiders and LC was the greatest movies of all time in my book and apparently in allot of other fans' book as well so why not try to capture the same feel as those films.

I'm not the greatest speaker so maybe I'm just speaking nonsense, could someone else help me out here?
 

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
Lance Quazar said:
something fresh and unexpected and daring.
You've yet to suggest anything fresh, stale, or otherwise.

Even I'm listing Islamic relics, in a thread that doesn's ask for them.

I'm forbidding myself from replying at all unless I can add to the discussion... uh, Samson's hair? Sounds like a quest for Henry Sr.
 
Top