Been There, Done That: the Issue of Originality

Deadlock

New member
Pale Horse said:
Imagine how Mel Gibson's The Passion could be realized if the whole story was realized from Judas' point of view? Now that is an original story. Sure it would fall under Fatal Imprudence, or one similar, but has anyone stopped to think about how Judas might have felt?


I should copyright that idea, huh... :p

Original movie perhaps, but Bono already wrote a song from this point of view back in '93... Sorry lad. ;)

From Until the End of the World:

I took the money, I spiked your drink
You miss too much these days if you stop to think
You lead me on with those innocent eyes
And you know I love the element of surprise
In the garden I was playing the tart
I kissed your lips and broke your heart
You, you were acting like it was the end of the world
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Well I think that is more from the perspective of Lucifer, than of Judas, but I get your point. I was hoping to convey that even though some characters, if not some people are destined to be wrong. But that doesn't mean there isn't a sympathic side to their story, no matter how tragic.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Deadlock said:
Original movie perhaps, but Bono already wrote a song [Until the End of the World] from this point of view back in '93... Sorry lad. ;)

Talk about a 'plate of shrimp' moment'. It's really odd that you quote this song in this thread. Did you see the movie for which U2 wrote the song? It's one of my favorites and one of its major objectives was to be truly original. Until the End of the World has, in my opinion, one of the all-time greatest moments in screen history.

Pale Horse said:
Imagine how Mel Gibson's The Passion could be realized if the whole story was realized from Judas' point of view?

Almost has been done. Have you seen Harvey Keitel's performance in Last Temptation of Christ??
 

Deadlock

New member
Joe Brody said:
Talk about a 'plate of shrimp' moment'. It's really odd that you quote this song in this thread. Did you see the movie for which U2 wrote the song? It's one of my favorites and one of its major objectives was to be truly original. Until the End of the World has, in my opinion, one of the all-time greatest moments in screen history.

"Plate of shrimp moment"? :confused: I'm not familiar with that phrase...

And as much as this pains me to admit my ignorance in a matter pertaining to U2... What movie has "Until the End of the World"?
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Deadlock said:
"Plate of shrimp moment"? :confused: I'm not familiar with that phrase...

It's a reference to a line from Repo Man that deals with cosmic coincidence. Essentially, a character gives a small speach about all these daily freak coincidences, like you ever notice how often you may be thinking of 'shrimp' or a 'plate of shrimp' and all of the sudden someone says 'shrimp' or you pass a restaraunt that has a 'plate of shrimp' special advertised in the window. What's interesting is that you quoted a song that was written for a movie that (I think) intentionally sought to defy some of the very conventions you are seeking to address in this thread.

Deadlock said:
"And as much as this pains me to admit my ignorance in a matter pertaining to U2... What movie has "Until the End of the World"?

Why Until the End of the World of course. It's a bummer, but I don't think it is out on DVD. Its worth the rental -- even it is just VHS.
 
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roundshort

Active member
Repoman,Now there is an original movie, and maybe the best soundtrack in the history of movies! Wow, I haven't seen that classic in quite sometime, there is a flick that needs to be looked at again.

No, going boack to another thread, we need more vamires in movies, and I woudl lvoe to see some Christopher Moore novels made into movies, such as "lamb"
 

Pilot

New member
Raiders succeeded partly because familiar elements were put together in a fresh way. Many of the so-called "rip-off" Raiders movies were not put together in a fresh way. Another example of this is Predator. It was a combination of science fiction, war, and jungle adventure, but it was cobbled together in a fresh way that succeeded. Howard Hawkes made two western movies about ten years apart that have a similar plot, but the elements and characters are rearranged. These two movies are Rio Bravo and El Dorado. Watching these two movies, you notice the similarities, but they are different enough that they succeed on their own.
 
Deadlock said:
As we kick around Indy 4 concepts, this issue of originality is bugging me. Given that we are talking about a sequel, I think that it is worth noting that sequels bear an interesting (if problematic) task of trying to top a previous film while at the same time being true to audience. Most sequels fail (though there are exceptions). As fans we have certain expectations for Indy, most of which I would deem would be elements that are being repeated from previous Indy outings. Whether these are visual elements (fedora and bullwhip), characters, character dynamics, villains, action, or plot (race for supernatural artifact), I get a distinct vibe that we fans want something that isn't really very different than what we've already seen. [/SIZE]


Now that we've digested the film, is there ANYTHING original about Crystal Skull?
 
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Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Now that we've digested the film, is there ANYTHING original about Crystal Skull?

Can't bump this back from the dead. This, and topics like this are lost on this audience.
 
Pale Horse said:
Can't bump this back from the dead. This, and topics like this are lost on this audience.
So we all live in the gutter, some of us still look to the stars. I don't see any reason the Crystal Skull "die hards" or "haters" can't further the conversation.

It's interesting to see how things were discussed well before Skull in any event...
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
I'm not saying give up the dream, but the denizen's of Indy lore and character development such as this thread suggests are long gone.

Getting new blood in here for that sort of thing would be easier than trying to get the current bloodstream up to health.

KOTCS too, sucked any life or hope of such depth away. I know that there are those that still occasionally post or lurk in the shadows, but if there is any sort of participation, it'll be like a 20 year high school reunion. There is no new generation.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Pale Horse said:
I'm not saying give up the dream, but the denizen's of Indy lore and character development such as this thread suggests are long gone.

Getting new blood in here for that sort of thing would be easier than trying to get the current bloodstream up to health.

KOTCS too, sucked any life or hope of such depth away. I know that there are those that still occasionally post or lurk in the shadows, but if there is any sort of participation, it'll be like a 20 year high school reunion. There is no new generation.

You sound like a beaten horse, and that's no surprise. Even Orwell's loyal Boxer was forced to give up in the end, and despatched to the slaughterhouse before his time.

That for me describes the grinding frustration with KOTCS. A wasted opportunity, reliant on mimicry with little intention of extracting anything other than a superficial excitement in a youthful audience.

There seemed very little attempt at injecting originality into KOTCS, because it was outwardly a pastiche of itself and of popular culture. It runs along ticking off a list of clichés until it's time to wow the audience with the next great spectacle.

There was no attempt at injecting anything original storywise. There was no real challenging issue, and Indy himself was for the most part a helpless passenger on a train with predestined stopping-stations. There was little free will, but instead clumsy plot direction.

Oxley will be insane and unhelpful until the plot requires him to explain the movie. Mac will change sides at regular intervals to spur the plot in the intended direction, but he will do it with so little acting-conviction that you wonder how Indy survived this long. Indy himself is driven by the Skull against his will.

This really wasn't an adventure but a dictated course.

And to make sure that all the 'deeply intellectual Cold War references' don't overpower and bore the little ones, there are some CG animals to lighten the load.

I don't see anything superficially original in the film. Back in 1981 Raiders presented pastiche in what appeared to be an original manner. Even TOD challenged boundaries and tested it's protagonist. TLC was a character driven storyline. KOTCS just feels like a weak skating lesson on thick ice, with no hope that the ice would break to reveal a hidden depth.

There was never any sense that the characters were in real situations, real danger, or even real relationships. Instead they spouted clichés at each other, resurrected lines and instances from previous movies.

However, there are ways of finding meaning, even if it requires creating meaning where it wasn't intended. Finding a subconscious text in the movie. It's not easy, because KOTCS doesn't lend itself to thinking too deeply.

Even TOD had a moment of self-reflection, a gnawing ethical shift in Indy's conscience. He wasn't a natural hero, but a hard-edged fortune-seeker. In Raiders he's a thief in Peru and a mercenary in Egypt. In TLC he elected to undertake a very personal quest against great odds.

In KOTCS he was at first intrigued to find the skull, and then compelled to do so. The skull chose to speak to him, knowing that his previous encounters with the supernatural would preserve his sanity after this one. We have to assume that the aliens saw in him something naturally good, knowing for sure that this was the right man for job. That this time he would not run off with the object of his desire.

Maybe that, then, is the deeper meaning of KOTCS? It's an innate belief in another entity. We might extend that to Marion. Indy always knew that she was the girl for him, despite all the other close encounters. Despite their differences he has an innate belief that it's right.

This meaning, however, is lost because the actors sound like they're regurgitating lines. They don't for the most part appear to be expressing genuine relationships. KOTCS has lost the original power and impetus that made Raiders that almost perfect movie.
 
Montana Smith said:
That for me describes the grinding frustration with KOTCS. A wasted opportunity, reliant on mimicry with little intention of extracting anything other than a superficial excitement in a youthful audience.
It's what you get when the emotional INVESTMENT in the reunion outweighs that of the project.

Montana Smith said:
There seemed very little attempt at injecting originality into KOTCS, because it was outwardly a pastiche of itself and of popular culture. It runs along ticking off a list of clichés until it's time to wow the audience with the next great spectacle.
Instead of taking it's influence from beloved celuloid they blended and poured the batter into a cardboard box and tried to re gift it. It could have used more time on the oven...the box got a bit soft.

Montana Smith said:
There was no attempt at injecting anything original storywise. There was no real challenging issue, and Indy himself was for the most part a helpless passenger on a train with predestined stopping-stations. There was little free will, but instead clumsy plot direction.
Refining our own points from other threads, I agree but to add, I think they felt the CONCEPT of aliens was sufficient. The only originality needed in a Mad Libs project.

Montana Smith said:
Oxley will be insane and unhelpful until the plot requires him to explain the movie. Mac will change sides at regular intervals to spur the plot in the intended direction, but he will do it with so little acting-conviction that you wonder how Indy survived this long. Indy himself is driven by the Skull against his will.
Not all bad ideas, but half baked/undeveloped. These are raw ideas that never got any real attention to make them compelling. Belloq had some great throw away lines that gave you some insight, Ox's throwaways were barebone band aids for the "plot."

Montana Smith said:
This really wasn't an adventure but a dictated course.
Maybe this is where the originality comes in.

"Chronologically" Indy was a pirate, then a privateer. Saving his family and ultimatly victim.

For better or worse, Indy is a victim in Skull. Begins as a captive, and in his attempt to save family becomes victim to the Skull. In a way how Spielberg felt being pressured into this film. He was bullied by the fans, aliens pushed upon him.

Has Indy become more than a result of the accumulated influences of his creators? Is indy a metaphor for Spielberg?

Montana Smith said:
And to make sure that all the 'deeply intellectual Cold War references' don't overpower and bore the little ones, there are some CG animals to lighten the load.
Serving too many masters, too many cooks...

The politics of the germans/Nazis are breifly referenced not enumerated, the villainy of the characters themselves sufficed in Raiders, and better costuming. Spalkos jumpsuit was stupid. It might have given her more depth if she were, outwardly, not one to get her hands dirty and her dress indicate that. It may have offered some interesting relations with her iron fist/team. Certainly her sword would have played to that.

Montana Smith said:
I don't see anything superficially original in the film. KOTCS just feels like a weak skating lesson on thick ice, with no hope that the ice would break to reveal a hidden depth.
The theme of aging held great promise, and I thought original, though it was played primarily for jokes and the writing lacked any true emotion.


Montana Smith said:
There was never any sense that the characters were in real situations, real danger, or even real relationships. Instead they spouted clichés at each other, resurrected lines and instances from previous movies.
The lack of danger is great factor as to why the emotional resolutions were hollow as well...

Montana Smith said:
However, there are ways of finding meaning, even if it requires creating meaning where it wasn't intended. Finding a subconscious text in the movie. It's not easy, because KOTCS doesn't lend itself to thinking too deeply.
Aging should have been a central theme, and not just mined for humor. Between being fired and finding Mutt could have been more than maudlin.

Montana Smith said:
The skull chose to speak to him, knowing that his previous encounters with the supernatural would preserve his sanity after this one. We have to assume that the aliens saw in him something naturally good... Maybe that, then, is the deeper meaning of KOTCS? It's an innate belief in another entity. We might extend that to Marion. Indy always knew that she was the girl for him, despite all the other close encounters. Despite their differences he has an innate belief that it's right.
I would think the theme to be forwarded from all this is UNDERSTANDING. Spalko saw a tool to serve her and ultimately Indy strove for insight.

An interesting idea since the film as a vehicle for this message had to tell us and wasn't able to show us..."Well done is better than well said..."

Montana Smith said:
They don't for the most part appear to be expressing genuine relationships. KOTCS has lost the original power and impetus that made Raiders that almost perfect movie.
As you pointed out once again, that lack of consequence had more far reaching effects on the film.:hat:
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
I agree with all your commentary, Rocket.

I especially like this idea of plot development driven by outside influences:

Rocket Surgeon said:
"Chronologically" Indy was a pirate, then a privateer. Saving his family and ultimatly victim.

For better or worse, Indy is a victim in Skull. Begins as a captive, and in his attempt to save family becomes victim to the Skull. In a way how Spielberg felt being pressured into this film. He was bullied by the fans, aliens pushed upon him.

Has Indy become more than a result of the accumulated influences of his creators? Is indy a metaphor for Spielberg?

It may help to explain why things were not as some (of us) would have preferred. Similar claims have been made for TOD, that external influences on Lucas and Spielberg drove the plot into an unexpectedly dark and sadistic direction.

Rocket Surgeon said:
I would think the theme to be forwarded from all this is UNDERSTANDING. Spalko saw a tool to serve her and ultimately Indy strove for insight.

That is definitely one main theme. Understanding that knowledge is a gift (as bestowed by the aliens upon men in early times) which can be employed for both good and evil purposes.

Indy is wise enough not to delve too deeply into the unknown - and this is where I think I linked Heart of Darkness to KOTCS here long ago. Marlow maintained his sanity by keeping busy, and trying not to become consumed by the power of the wilderness, which tears apart many of Conrad's protagonists who travel away from the safety of civilization. In the wilderness there is no social law, no restraint, and a man can go insane like Kurtz. The soft, civilized white Europeans put themselves in danger when they go face-to-face with the darkness, when they lose grip on the illusory light of superficial civilized life.

Indy has knowledge of the supernatural world, but he remains firmly in the natural world for much of the time. Spalko, the Soviet witch, already has a foot in the supernatural, though we don't see much proof of her power. She cannot help but demand to "know everything" that the aliens can impart. But the human mind can't cope with that 'darkness' of full knowledge. This is why Marlow lies to Kurtz's intended, to protect her from the truth, and why Indy occasionally mocks the very idea of the supernatural while in the company of others. From prior experience, he understands the consequences.
 
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