Anything Goes V.S. Hound Dog

herr gruber · Aug 31, 2008

I don't think Lucas needed to hit us with Hound Dog immediately. The urgency to reveal the decade was, in my opinion, quite patronising. We know it's not the thirties because of the vehicles and clothes.

I felt as though Lucas was hitting me over the head with a large mallet with the number 57 written on it.

I would have preferred a Williams scored intro with some nice exhilarating orchestral music.

Darth Vile · Aug 31, 2008

The Man said:
Yes, yet another contradiction from Marshall and Lucas. The end of another adventure? Indy's having a quiet life?

One of the things that I could not figure out during the spoiler days was... How can the warehouse scene be at the start of the movie if it involves the skull? I'd always assumed that the opening 15 minutes would be unrelated (as you indicate).

Not sure why the opening had to involve the skull specifically. It still could have entailed Spalko and her soldiers breaking into Area 51 looking for some telekinetic weapon/device, or even the Ark. But I guess Lucas' rule is that there are no rules (unless he says so)???

Darth Vile · Aug 31, 2008

herr gruber said:
I don't think Lucas needed to hit us with Hound Dog immediately. The urgency to reveal the decade was, in my opinion, quite patronising. We know it's not the thirties because of the vehicles and clothes.

I felt as though Lucas was hitting me over the head with a large mallet with the number 57 written on it.

I would have preferred a Williams scored intro with some nice exhilarating orchestral music.

I'm not sure I would 100% agree. If unfamiliar with the spoilers or general PR before the movie opened, I think most audiences would automatically assume that the time setting was more or less the same as the originals. 1950's cars don't mean that much to me (as in I wouldn't know one from the next)... but I obviously know that Rock & Roll was the 1950's, as would many a cinemagoer over the age of 20.

Many movies set the scene by using music contemporary to the time period in which the story takes place. It's quite a common (if somewhat unoriginal) technique. So whilst I can understand why some would prefer KOTCS opening up straight into a Williams piece, I don't think it's that much of a blasphemy.

herr gruber · Aug 31, 2008

Darth Vile said:
I'm not sure I would 100% agree. If unfamiliar with the spoilers or general PR before the movie opened, I think most audiences would automatically assume that the time setting was more or less the same as the originals.

True, but, by god, it wouldn't take long for the revelation to become clear:

Nevada 1957

No Ticket · Aug 31, 2008

Darth Vile said:
Credits... as in opening titles...

Please can I suggest you taking a leaf from your own book? I refer to your earlier comment aimed in my direction... "Don't try to argue that point as it's 100% right". You may not have thought anything wrong with that... but I thought it a bit of a "jackass" comment too (especially as it was your misunderstanding).

No, that was just stating factual information. I know you like to argue about every damn thing so I was basically saying don't bother as it's obvious that I am right on that particular point. Jackass.

Darth Vile · Sep 1, 2008

No Ticket said:
No, that was just stating factual information. I know you like to argue about every damn thing so I was basically saying don't bother as it's obvious that I am right on that particular point. Jackass.

What an imbecilic response

Do you not understand???
We were not discussing that point. If you don't understand what?s being discussed ? just ask? That way you can come prepared before launching in with largely redundant comments.

AnImaginaryBoy · Sep 1, 2008

While I prefer the opening to Temple of Doom, I do like the use of Hound Dog at the start of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Yeah, it might be hammering home the point, but the Indiana Jones films are hardly known for their subtly, are they? Also forgive my ignorance, as it's been a long time since I did film studies, but aren't both the use of Anything Goes and Hound Dog diegetic? Anything Goes is being performed to the patrons in the club, and isn't Hound Dog being played on the radio in the teenagers' car, so surely it's the same thing? Of course, the Anything Goes sequence does have more effort put into on the part of the film-makers, so I can understand why some might be irritated, but aren't they both diegetic? As I said, please excuse my ignorance as it's been a good while since I did film studies at college!

Darth Vile · Sep 1, 2008

AnImaginaryBoy said:
Also forgive my ignorance, as it's been a long time since I did film studies, but aren't both the use of Anything Goes and Hound Dog diegetic? Anything Goes is being performed to the patrons in the club, and isn't Hound Dog being played on the radio in the teenagers' car, so surely it's the same thing? Of course, the Anything Goes sequence does have more effort put into on the part of the film-makers, so I can understand why some might be irritated, but aren't they both diegetic? As I said, please excuse my ignorance as it's been a good while since I did film studies at college!

This is where myself and Resident Alien were having the conversation. Both examples are not black and white... as although Elvis isn't there in person performing "Hound Dog", the source of the music is clearly within the movie i.e. car radio. Whilst "Anything Goes" is being performed by a big band that we have to assume is there in the club, but we know in practical terms couldn't produce that sound... Also, is "Anything Goes" Williams first diegetic track on an Indy flick? I can't think of another one off the top of my head...

Benraianajones · Sep 1, 2008

I do prefer "Anything Goes" in TOD in regards to it is amusing and it also sets up the scene as well as painting how Willie (this film's Indy girl) likes to live her life - in contrast to what she will end up getting involved in.

However, I do like the landscape shots at the start of KOTCS to "Hound Dog", it actually reminded me Predator ones intro actually! I regards to the general "normality" of life (with the teens racing/in Pred - soldiers doing routine work in their choppers flying to a location!) - and in both films and cases - the movies lead to rather scary other-worldly less than normal life encounters. (Though KOTCS - not scary - hence why I'd have prefered a serious tone to the general movie as opposed to too much humour).

ResidentAlien · Sep 1, 2008

Darth Vile said:
This is where myself and Resident Alien were having the conversation. Both examples are not black and white... as although Elvis isn't there in person performing "Hound Dog", the source of the music is clearly within the movie i.e. car radio. Whilst "Anything Goes" is being performed by a big band that we have to assume is there in the club, but we know in practical terms couldn't produce that sound... Also, is "Anything Goes" Williams first diegetic track on an Indy flick? I can't think of another one off the top of my head...

No it's not.

It's not within the car at all and that becomes clear very quickly as the use of the music becomes score after the car initially passes. Clearly the music is introduced as diegetic but it becomes non-diegetic as the credits progress.

Darth Vile · Sep 1, 2008

ResidentAlien said:
No it's not.

It's not within the car at all and that becomes clear very quickly as the use of the music becomes score after the car initially passes. Clearly the music is introduced as diegetic but it becomes non-diegetic as the credits progress.

Are you stating that "Hound Dog" is not playing out of the car radio? I thought it was... If it is, then it clearly has a source. If it isn't, then I obviously take it back (although it sounded as if it were coming from the radio to me).

ResidentAlien · Sep 1, 2008

Darth Vile said:
Are you stating that "Hound Dog" is not playing out of the car radio? I thought it was... If it is, then it clearly has a source. If it isn't, then I obviously take it back (although it sounded as if it were coming from the radio to me).

I'm saying it is initially insinuated to have a source. But if it were truly diegetic, it would be anchored to that source. And it's clearly not. It's used as score. The car passing and anchoring it to the radio was only used as an editing cue to begin the music but the music becomes completely non-diegetic once the car passes off the screen.

The Man · Sep 1, 2008

ResidentAlien said:
I'm saying it is initially insinuated to have a source. But if it were truly diegetic, it would be anchored to that source. And it's clearly not. It's used as score. The car passing and anchoring it to the radio was only used as an editing cue to begin the music but the music becomes completely non-diegetic once the car passes off the screen.

True. How else could the audience have heard it so audibly in all the rumble of the army convoy and from such a distance in the wideshots..?*

*I had no idea about diegetics until now. Thanks, guys...

nitzsche · Sep 1, 2008

It's supposed to be from the car radio and you hear the music fade as the kids continue down the road and the convoy turns toward the base. Obviously the music is part of the track and not actually coming from the car, but that is the intention.

I understand that Lucas wanted Hound Dog in American Graffiti, but could not afford the rights at the time, so this was a perfect opportunity and he and Spielberg did it for this reason and for the fun of it all.

No Ticket · Sep 1, 2008

Darth Vile said:
What an imbecilic response Do you not understand???
We were not discussing that point. If you don't understand what?s being discussed ? just ask? That way you can come prepared before launching in with largely redundant comments.

I understand perfectly that you're a jackass.

Indy's brother · Sep 1, 2008

Wow, jonesissparrow, Your thread has become more interesting than I would have thought. Great topic!

Darth Vile · Sep 1, 2008

ResidentAlien said:
I'm saying it is initially insinuated to have a source. But if it were truly diegetic, it would be anchored to that source. And it's clearly not. It's used as score. The car passing and anchoring it to the radio was only used as an editing cue to begin the music but the music becomes completely non-diegetic once the car passes off the screen.

The Man said:
True. How else could the audience have heard it so audibly in all the rumble of the army convoy and from such a distance in the wideshots..?*

Then surely by definition that applies to TOD to an even greater extent. After all TOD opens with a Williams fanfare that is clearly non diegetic and is part of the score, contains choral music (without any source whatsoever), resolves into a big band number... which turns into a Busby Berkley dream sequence where clearly no band is playing or is ever visible during the scene...

Ultimately, neither "Hound Dog" or "Anything Goes" are diegetic in the strictest sense. Wouldn't you agree?

The Man · Sep 1, 2008

Darth Vile said:
Then surely by definition that applies to TOD to an even greater extent. After all TOD opens with a Williams fanfare that is clearly non diegetic and is part of the score, contains choral music (without any source whatsoever), resolves into a big band number... which turns into a Busby Berkley dream sequence where clearly no band is playing or is ever visible during the scene...

Ultimately, neither "Hound Dog" or "Anything Goes" are diegetic in the strictest sense. Wouldn't you agree?

I can neither agree nor disagree because I don't know the gospel of diegetics. To me, it's a matter of superior openings - and Temple is my choice.

AnImaginaryBoy · Sep 1, 2008

Darth Vile said:
Then surely by definition that applies to TOD to an even greater extent. After all TOD opens with a Williams fanfare that is clearly non diegetic and is part of the score, contains choral music (without any source whatsoever), resolves into a big band number... which turns into a Busby Berkley dream sequence where clearly no band is playing or is ever visible during the scene...

Ultimately, neither "Hound Dog" or "Anything Goes" are diegetic in the strictest sense. Wouldn't you agree?

I think that's true. Whether or not the song remains to be audible during the race between the army truck and the kids is just a liberty the film-makers are allowed to take, the song is still being played, and is part of the world we the audience are watching in the film, just like the elaborate dance sequence in Temple of Doom. They may both be over the top and or unrealistic, but it's still part of the environment of the film, at least in my opinion anyway! Mind you I am only imaginary, so I'm probably wrong.

Johnny Jones · Sep 1, 2008

Not the imaginary boy again... I must stop taking those blasted pills.

I think I will listen to him for now, though. He makes a good point.

Anything Goes V.S. Hound Dog

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