Indiana Jones & The Supernatural

sheffsteve

New member
So as a consequence of the suspension of disbelief question I posed this occurred to me; Does an Indiana Jones story have to have an element of the supernatural to it or does a vanilla story work fine?
 

kongisking

Active member
Of course its possible...whether or not its desirable or would be fundamentally rejected by audiences is a whole 'nother matter. I personally love the supernatural elements of these movies, as they give it a larger-than-life, pulpy feel that compliments the character and gives him more interesting adventures. But if someone did a straight, real-world Indy story about him just reclaiming some stolen treasure from an artifact smuggling ring or something....I mean, jeez, its not exactly my idea of an Indiana Jones adventure, but if its done well? Then hip hip hooray, and good for it.

And heck, its entirely possible some of Indy's adventures don't always have a supernatural element or occurrence. That would be rather outrageous luck*, for him to always run into magical stuff, and if he weren't so skeptical and cynical about it all, he'd probably reveal it to the planet, and we'd be living in a very different world now.

*Then again, Indy is the patron saint of Insane Good Luck...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
There's always that middle ground of red herrings, where the supernatural is debunked by the investigating professor...

Raiders Story Conference Transcript, 1978

GEORGE LUCAS: I thought it would be interesting to have him be a sort of expert in the occult, as an offshoot of the anthropological side of this thing...A study of ancient religions and voodoo and all that kind of stuff. He's a guy who sort of checks out ghosts and psychic phenomenon in connection with the kind of things he does. He's a sort of archeological exorcist. When somebody has a haunted house, or a haunted temple, and nobody will go near it, he is the one who will go in there and do it... Assuming that he believes in the supernatural because he deals with it, he is the one they send into the haunted house...A lot of the times they are hoaxes. And he can figure it out.
 

TheFedora

Active member
kongisking said:
Of course its possible...whether or not its desirable or would be fundamentally rejected by audiences is a whole 'nother matter. I personally love the supernatural elements of these movies, as they give it a larger-than-life, pulpy feel that compliments the character and gives him more interesting adventures. But if someone did a straight, real-world Indy story about him just reclaiming some stolen treasure from an artifact smuggling ring or something....I mean, jeez, its not exactly my idea of an Indiana Jones adventure, but if its done well? Then hip hip hooray, and good for it.

And heck, its entirely possible some of Indy's adventures don't always have a supernatural element or occurrence. That would be rather outrageous luck*, for him to always run into magical stuff, and if he weren't so skeptical and cynical about it all, he'd probably reveal it to the planet, and we'd be living in a very different world now.

*Then again, Indy is the patron saint of Insane Good Luck...

Kind of reminds me of how there are some Indiana jones comics that do not feature the supernatural in any way. I remember the one with Buffalo Bills guns didn't feature anything supernatural, just a artifact that was culturally significant to both groups of people. And I thought that story was well done in that it was able to capture Indy's mood without having a supernatural thing...just a little hint of how that could be done.
 

Goodeknight

New member
I like the idea of Indy exploring the supernatural, and occasionally debunking it, and exposing a fraud, as long as it isn't too Scooby Doo. "It was mean Mr. Dithers, the gardener!"

But if you look at the (three) films, without that heavy dose of the supernatural, you don't have the opening of the Ark or the angels of death or the dead Nazis, and you don't have Henry Sr. being saved by the power of the Holy Grail. Key scenes that provide some of the biggest highlights of those films. The least supernatural of the three is TOD, which has the "I understand their power now" ending. Return of the children is great, but it's not the Holy Grail.

Keep in mind that few of the YIJC had heavy supernatural elements. A lot of people loved those. I enjoyed them, but, for me, they fell a bit flat.
 

sheffsteve

New member
I admit the YIJC were in my mind when I was asking the question. I could never really get along with the show when it was broadcast on the BBC and I certainly haven't seen them all really because they lacked interest for me due to the absence of a supernatural element. Indy is called a expert in the occult in ROTLA yet at many times in the films exhibits great scepticism for one who must have experienced many strange things. Since I don't know YIJC well I would be interested in finding out which episodes feature a supernatural element.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Goodeknight said:
Keep in mind that few of the YIJC had heavy supernatural elements. A lot of people loved those. I enjoyed them, but, for me, they fell a bit flat.


sheffsteve said:
I admit the YIJC were in my mind when I was asking the question. I could never really get along with the show when it was broadcast on the BBC and I certainly haven't seen them all really because they lacked interest for me due to the absence of a supernatural element.

I enjoyed the YIJC but I don't associate them with the Harrison Ford or River Phoenix Indy because the series was created for a different and specific purpose of edutainment.

Hence when the supernatural elements appear they come as a surprise, whereas they are an established and expected part of the films. Same goes for the intentionally absurd Kafka episode in series.


sheffsteve said:
Indy is called a expert in the occult in ROTLA yet at many times in the films exhibits great scepticism for one who must have experienced many strange things.

This has been addressed numerous times on the forum. My take on it is that as a professional Indy is perpetually on guard against being caught out and embarrassed by falling for a hoax.

Therefore he treats each new supposed instance of the paranormal with suspicion, until he's experienced the phenomena for himself.

sheffsteve said:
Since I don't know YIJC well I would be interested in finding out which episodes feature a supernatural element.

Masks of Evil / Transylvania, January 1918 is the big one, in which he meets Dracula. However, originally it was aired with the Old Indy bookend with him telling a Halloween story to a group of trick or treaters. So it may be just a ghost story, which makes sense considering the generally real world exploits throughout much of the rest of the series.
 

kongisking

Active member
Montana Smith said:
My take on it is that as a professional Indy is perpetually on guard against being caught out and embarrassed by falling for a hoax.

Therefore he treats each new supposed instance of the paranormal with suspicion, until he's experienced the phenomena for himself.

That's more or less my current take too. Otherwise, Indy must be suffering an epic case of amnesia after every adventure.

Goodeknight said:
The least supernatural of the three is TOD, which has the "I understand their power now" ending. Return of the children is great, but it's not the Holy Grail.

Though I personally feel TOD's ending was probably the most uplifting and cathartic of all the endings for the original movies. Because there wasn't a bit of bittersweetness to it (besides possibly the fact Indy and Willie are not gonna last---but even that's a victory for us :D ). It's pure, unleaded happy ending, and after the intensity and insanity we saw for the last half-hour, its completely deserved. So, it may lack really overt supernatural-ness, but its oddly the most satisfying ending for an Indy adventure because its all about humanity and compassion, not a cool set-piece based around a magic object.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
kongisking said:
Though I personally feel TOD's ending was probably the most uplifting and cathartic of all the endings for the original movies. Because there wasn't a bit of bittersweetness to it (besides possibly the fact Indy and Willie are not gonna last---but even that's a victory for us :D ). It's pure, unleaded happy ending, and after the intensity and insanity we saw for the last half-hour, its completely deserved. So, it may lack really overt supernatural-ness, but its oddly the most satisfying ending for an Indy adventure because its all about humanity and compassion, not a cool set-piece based around a magic object.

ToD had that Hollywood happy ending and it suited very well. But I did like the more sombre ending of Raiders with Indy not getting to keep the prize (for the Museum, that is) and the glimpse of the mysterious warehouse with the Ark being secreted away again after being woken up for a spot of godly wrath.

LC had a more philosophical ending following the loss of the prize yet again.

CS had Indy losing the prize (not even sure if there really was one, apart from incineration) to again resorting to a philosophical outlook: "Knowledge was their treasure..." The vagueness of the prize in CS made the ending less defined in loss of said prize and in Indy's state of resignation.

In all four movies, though, Indy is witness to the supernatural but never speaks his mind on the matter, besides acknowledgement.
 

Goodeknight

New member
kongisking said:
TOD's ending was probably the most uplifting and cathartic of all the endings for the original movies. ... It's pure, unleaded happy ending, and after the intensity and insanity we saw for the last half-hour, its completely deserved. So, it may lack really overt supernatural-ness, but its oddly the most satisfying ending for an Indy adventure because its all about humanity and compassion, not a cool set-piece based around a magic object.

I agree with you there. TOD ending doesn't blow you away like the climax of Raiders, or give you that "oooo" feeling of seeing Henry Sr. brought back from the brink of death. But, seeing the children and their families reunited always gives me a huge smile, with all the screaming and laughing, mom's breaking into tears, etc. Heartwarming. And a real moment of growth for Indy, letting go of the fortune and glory to see the bigger picture.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Goodeknight said:
I agree with you there. TOD ending doesn't blow you away like the climax of Raiders, or give you that "oooo" feeling of seeing Henry Sr. brought back from the brink of death. But, seeing the children and their families reunited always gives me a huge smile, with all the screaming and laughing, mom's breaking into tears, etc. Heartwarming. And a real moment of growth for Indy, letting go of the fortune and glory to see the bigger picture.

It's a classic serial 'feel good' ending, like KOTCS which ended with the wedding of the hero which would sometimes happen at the end of the final episode.

And with a joke to leave the young audience, and characters themselves, laughing:

397.jpg
 

Djd1

New member
Going back to the Young Indy theme, not only was it painfully short of the supernatural but worse, it was painfully short of archaeology! He almost did anything but...

If they'd made a series that was something along the lines of a Relic Hunter - but with a budget - that would have been worth watching.
 

Djd1

New member
All the jazz stuff and much of the romance seemed totally at odds with the film character who seemed to be something of a sexual predator if anything. Where did that spring from in the young indy character developmen?
 

kongisking

Active member
Djd1 said:
Going back to the Young Indy theme, not only was it painfully short of the supernatural but worse, it was painfully short of archaeology! He almost did anything but...

If they'd made a series that was something along the lines of a Relic Hunter - but with a budget - that would have been worth watching.

Well, keep in mind the show took place during his formative years, before he even got a job teaching. It was Indy's origin story, showing how he began as young and idealistic, then WWI turned him cynical and more jaded. Hence, the Indy we see in TOD, but then he regains his selflessness, and in Raiders, he's more or less a peg down from his TOD self, but still with a lot of darkness and amorality. Then in LC, he's regressed a teensy bit to his more altruistic self ("it belongs in a museum") which could be a product of Raiders' climax humbling him a little, and by the time we get to KOTCS, he's world-weary, less impulsive and more cautious, not to mention beginning to regret all the missed opportunities in life.

I think overall, while his characterization in the whole series seems inconsistent on the surface, it's actually a decent story of his journey from idealistic, to cynical, to eventually re-learning humility and wisdom just in time to properly be a married man and a father. Kind of a nice arc, don't you agree?

I know Smiffy's a huge fan...:p
 

Djd1

New member
I just don't buy it I'm affraid. The young indy character is so far removed from older indy that personally I see nothing to link them. It'saalso the tone of the stories that makes it even harder to believe... The comic book violence of the films and Indy's willingness to resort to violence, seems totally at odds with a man coming out of the horrors of WW1. It was a worthy attempt at an educational series in my view but mostly very dull and hard to watch - particularly so for the kids it was aimed at educating!

I know some people love it but personally I wish it had been an entirely different project in almost every aspect.
 
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