John Williams confirmed for Indy IV...

drwynn

New member
Correct me if I'm wrong...but, doesn't the entire Academy vote for Best Director? And don't just musicians vote for Best Score?
 

No Ticket

New member
ResidentAlien - You say that works have to stand on their own, but you must realize that music is subjective right? I know your not stupid. Not everybody is going to like Williams or Mozart. That doesn't mean either are not good. It's a matter of personal tastes. Personally, I think that Williams is pretty much a genius in regards to what he has accomplished musically. Jaws has one of the most memorable pieces in all of music-film history and it is just a few notes.

Calling Williams POP is probably somewhat accurate in regards to his thematic music. I appreciate that you have an open-mind to all music, as do I (from another discussion), but you must also realize that "pop" music is not BAD just because it's popular. When I listen to the radio, the songs that pop up on there are sometimes the best songs on the albums. While there may be more creative pieces on an album, that doesn't make the radio single bad. It's POPULAR because it is good. To have the mindset that any POPULAR piece of music is automatically BAD just because it plays on the radio a lot is ridiculous. I know a lot of people who think like that. I think they believe it just because they like to "rebel" against what everybody likes.

Williams' thematic scores are his best, IMO, and they are very "pop-like" in their memorability. But you can't tell me that some of the most classical pieces don't have that to them as well? Beethoven AND Mozart both have that applied to their music. I don't need any formal musical education to know that if you remember the tune long after you've heard it and you enjoy it then it was probably a good piece of music.

Williams will be long remembered for his pieces of music that can stand alone without the films. Whether you think so or not is only YOUR opinion. But the vast majority of people out there will probably never forget the Star Wars theme, Jaws or other such famous pieces. The music itself helps the film, not the other way around. If you inserted anything else into those films, I guarantee you a lot of what made them so special will be taken aback.

He may not be "re-inventing" anything in particular in the music world, but he certainly is proving himself musically through already known methods... and doing it better than most composers of this day.

...and also...

Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan are not good movies based on their historical significance... they are good movies because of their shock-value. You know the hell that World War II and the holocaust was. Spielberg's movies are a trip through that world. SPR is shot mainly by hand-held camera that moves about in a way that resembles the Point-Of-View of someone who was there. The camera looks around, back and forth, shakes as it runs... peeks around corners. It's there to give you the feeling of being there. Shock Value, mainly of the D-Day Invasion opening. Your appalled at the violence. That doesn't mean it doesn't have worthwhile cinematic moments, like when they catch the German and wonder whether they should shoot him.

Schindler's List is much the same. It gives you a peek into what it was like for the Jews and it is there just to make you go "Wow, that was awful." Things like the German who shoots the child is there for no other reason. But human beings are intrigued by violence and the fact that this is "based" on true events makes it that much more intriguing and awful. Shock Value.
 

sarah navarro

New member
Wow,drywnn that was sounded awesome the way you put it,Ive heard it from my music teachers too that John Williams was a pretty brilliant guy.I love John Williams composition and think they are some of the best ever written.
ex.shindlers list and across the stars (star wars ep2)are some of the most beatiful songs ive ever heard they make me want to cry.I dont agree with Resident Alien(no offense)but John Williams does his job and does it very well:)
 

drwynn

New member
ResidentAlien said:
Do you believe everything someone tells ya?

Great art should stand on it's on. It shouldn't need an explanation from it's creator.

No, I do not believe everything someone tells me. You'd like people to think I do because you think it makes you sound more intelligent and makes me sound wrong.

My point in writing what I wrote about Williams' liner notes is this; Williams pointed out that his main emphasis when writing the scores to "Schindler's List" and "Saving Private Ryan" was to not let the music get in the way of the storytelling or become too instrusive when one views the film. And I was saying that his attempt to do so was a clear success when one listens to the musical score from those films. The scores emphasize the storytelling and are there to support the films...the scores never do the work of the film by manipulating the viewer into feeling a certain emotion. They only serve to emphasize and support the emotion of any given moment in each film.

As someone listening to the scores from those films, you don't need Williams' explanation to see that those scores were both subtle and understated...
 

drwynn

New member
ResidentAlien said:
And Schindler's List is awful.

And yes, I'm of Jewish descent so don't give me **** about it. Movies are not good merely because they're based on some historic narrative. Same goes for Saving Private Ryan. Garbage through-and-through. And much of the reason why I so dislike Spielberg as a director.

But go ahead, cite those as examples to why I don't know my Williams scores! You're moderately amusing (though wearing thin fast...)

Also, weren't we arguing about the music in those films and not the films themselves?

And just because you've seen a particular film does not mean you are well-versed in the musical score of said film.
 

drwynn

New member
One final reply and then I'll stop my rant;

One can certainly make the point that they do not personally care for Williams' music. That's all well and good.

But for one to listen to Williams' music, analyze it from a musically-educated standpoint and then say it isn't GOOD when viewing it from those viewpoints...well, that's just ridiculous. That's exactly why I think that Resident Alien's claims regarding Williams have no credibility or validity. Resident Alien can say he dislikes Williams as much as he wants...but for him/her to say Williams is merely "competent", or that Williams is "trite", or that Williams' music isn't "good" is utterly ridiculous. Unless Resident Alien has thoroughly analyzed Williams' music...dissected it bit by bit using music theory and compositional education...and approached the music from a musically informed standpoint (which I doubt he'she has), then he/she absolutely cannot say those things with any real credibility.
 

No Ticket

New member
drwynn said:
One final reply and then I'll stop my rant;

One can certainly make the point that they do not personally care for Williams' music. That's all well and good.

But for one to listen to Williams' music, analyze it from a musically-educated standpoint and then say it isn't GOOD when viewing it from those viewpoints...well, that's just ridiculous. That's exactly why I think that Resident Alien's claims regarding Williams have no credibility or validity. Resident Alien can say he dislikes Williams as much as he wants...but for him/her to say Williams is merely "competent", or that Williams is "trite", or that Williams' music isn't "good" is utterly ridiculous. Unless Resident Alien has thoroughly analyzed Williams' music...dissected it bit by bit using music theory and compositional education...and approached the music from a musically informed standpoint (which I doubt he'she has), then he/she absolutely cannot say those things with any real credibility.


But your missing the "music is subjective point" and the fact that "good" is a relative term. It doesn't matter how much you dissect the music or analyze it... music is more soulful than that. You should be able to FEEL good music. You shouldn't have to take classes to understand it's good. That's over-complicating the essence of what goes into creating music.

Understanding the finer points of what makes up a piece is good. But it still doesn't tell you if the music is good or not. Only an individual himself can really say if it's good or not. And that applies to his opinion only.

Some people think, for example, Weezer's Maladroit album is a masterful work while others think it's their worst album. It's all relative to how you interpret that music. It's obviously good to some and not so great to others.

Now, that being said... you can determine if someone is a skillful composer. You just can't 100% say that what they're writing is "good" or not. Obviously it's good to them, so to at least one person it is good music. Perhaps the only difference is that when thousands or millions agree on that it becomes "popular" music but when a lower number agree it's not. But I say that if you enjoy it then it is, by nature, good music.

There are times when you must listen to a song or album over and over to fully appreciate it. Songs you didn't like at first become some of your favorites... Fall Out Boy wrote that in one of their songs with the line "I know I'm not your favorite record" and then they say "The songs you grow to like never stick at first, So I'm writing you a chorus and here is your verse."

In that regard, your opinion can change. What once was "bad" is now "good." So did the song change at all? No. It's the same song. You grew to like it. So whether or not it is inherently a good piece of music is up to you and is held as your opinion only.

So it's hard to really say what is good music or bad music. We all have different tastes.
 

commontone

New member
I didn't think Saving Private Ryan was *quite* as good as its reputation, but to say "Schindler's List is awful"......? Is there a "censor" function on this forum? :rolleyes:
 

Indie House

New member
ResidentAlien said:
Zzzz... Overly intrusive and bombastic. Complimentary is not how I'd describe his music.

There are moments when Williams' music does take centre stage and is very dramatic but I advocate that these moments are essential to the delivery of the scene in question.

One of my favourite examples of this is the Han/Leia theme just before the credits in The Empire Strikes Back. That scene would be a shaddow of its current standing without the score.

I'd be interested to hear examples supporting the contrary.

:hat:
 

Zorg

New member
drwynn said:
My point in writing what I wrote about Williams' liner notes is this; Williams pointed out that his main emphasis when writing the scores to "Schindler's List" and "Saving Private Ryan" was to not let the music get in the way of the storytelling or become too instrusive when one views the film. And I was saying that his attempt to do so was a clear success when one listens to the musical score from those films.

Completely agreed. I've always thought Schindler's List is one of his finest scores. The music works very well even when listened separately. It's not so typical film music, but fits the film so well.
 

drwynn

New member
No Ticket said:
But your missing the "music is subjective point" and the fact that "good" is a relative term. It doesn't matter how much you dissect the music or analyze it... music is more soulful than that. You should be able to FEEL good music. You shouldn't have to take classes to understand it's good. That's over-complicating the essence of what goes into creating music.

Understanding the finer points of what makes up a piece is good. But it still doesn't tell you if the music is good or not. Only an individual himself can really say if it's good or not. And that applies to his opinion only.

Now, that being said... you can determine if someone is a skillful composer.

No, I'm not missing the subjective point. I even stated that several times before...anyone can say that they don't care for Williams' music. They can say that it doesn't appeal to them. That's all well and good. But for them to claim that Williams' music is "trite" (I'm talking about the literal definition of the word), to say it is "uncreative", or claim it is not well-written (what I think of when someone says his composing isn't "good")...that's absolutely false. And I'm coming from the musical perspective of analyzing the composition from a technical standpoint.

I myself understand the point you're trying to make...and I'll even give an example that illustrates I perfectly understand that...

The music of Penderecki and John Cage is technically very well-written and they are both skilled composers...but, I don't care for their music that much. But, I certainly would never have the balls to say, "Their music isn't good." Because that's just plain untrue.

Believe me...I understand the "soulful" aspect you're talking about. I understand that you shouldn't have to be able to discuss music tehcnically to know it's good...hell, when I was listening to Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 2 and the music moved me to tears at the tender young age of eight and I turned to my parents and told them that the music was incredible...I had no idea how to discuss the technical aspects of the composition. But, I intrinsically knew that t he music was amazingly well-written and it appealed to be on a very personal level. But, even if I had not liked the music, I never would've had the audacity to say it was "bad". I just would've claimed I didn't care for it personally.

Perhaps Resident Alien and I got caught up somewhere in the semantics of the discussion and that's why we couldn't see eye to eye.

I understand your point, though...but, again, surely you can see mine too, right?
 

No Ticket

New member
drwynn said:
I understand your point, though...but, again, surely you can see mine too, right?

Oh yeah. I got what you were trying to say. Yes, there's no way you can just say Williams is just plain bad or unimaginative even if you don't care for his music.
 
No Ticket said:
Oh yeah. I got what you were trying to say. Yes, there's no way you can just say Williams is just plain bad or unimaginative even if you don't care for his music.

Nor did I ever. ;)

But to rave about him or Spielberg or any other individual part of Indiana Jones (with the possible exception of Ford who I respect greatly--though again am not a huge fan of--for his paving the way for a newer, more modern brand of leading men) is frankly absurd. Indiana Jones is greater than the sum of it's parts.

But to call Williams great or a genius is equally stupid... and someone here did exactly that. Calling him competent is a far more respectful and fair judgment. That's acknowledging some degree of skill but reserving some outlandish claim of genius.
 

sarah navarro

New member
ResidentAlien said:
Nor did I ever. ;)

But to rave about him or Spielberg or any other individual part of Indiana Jones (with the possible exception of Ford who I respect greatly--though again am not a huge fan of--for his paving the way for a newer, more modern brand of leading men) is frankly absurd. Indiana Jones is greater than the sum of it's parts.

But to call Williams great or a genius is equally stupid... and someone here did exactly that. Calling him competent is a far more respectful and fair judgment. That's acknowledging some degree of skill but reserving some outlandish claim of genius.
oh sorry if it was me I just got a little excited*grunt*I didnt mean for everyone to get all butt hurt.But whatever I like John Williams ALOT,and I was just stated my opinion like everyone else around here .If you dont like him I dont care.I just was so happy all my feelings poured out (even though i knew it was no doubt he was scoring it):) no offense
 

drwynn

New member
sarah navarro said:
oh sorry if it was me I just got a little excited*grunt*I didnt mean for everyone to get all butt hurt.But whatever I like John Williams ALOT,and I was just stated my opinion like everyone else around here .If you dont like him I dont care.I just was so happy all my feelings poured out (even though i knew it was no doubt he was scoring it):) no offense

Don't worry, Sarah. He was referring to me, not you.

And if he would bother to read my posts (especially the one containing the basic definition of a "genius")...he would see that Mr. Williams clearly and plainly is one.

Of course, that would require him to respectfully acknowledge the opinion of someone who disagrees with him...which he clearly seems incapable of doing.
 

drwynn

New member
ResidentAlien said:
Nor did I ever. ;)

But to rave about him or Spielberg or any other individual part of Indiana Jones (with the possible exception of Ford who I respect greatly--though again am not a huge fan of--for his paving the way for a newer, more modern brand of leading men) is frankly absurd. Indiana Jones is greater than the sum of it's parts.

But to call Williams great or a genius is equally stupid... and someone here did exactly that. Calling him competent is a far more respectful and fair judgment. That's acknowledging some degree of skill but reserving some outlandish claim of genius.


Again, the definition of a genius is as follows;

"A genius is a person of great intelligence, who shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work. The term may also be applied to someone who is a polymath or a prodigy. Although the term is sometimes used to denote the possession of a superior talent in any field (e.g., Roger Federer may be said to have a genius for tennis or Winston Churchill for statesmanship), in many instances the term is used specifically to denote an exceptional natural capacity of intellect in areas of art, literature, music, science and mathematics."

I think that most people with real musical training and education would concede the fact that John Williams is a musical genius of sorts. That may make me sound like a "dumb-ass", according to Resident Alien, but...I don't care. I know Williams' music too well...I've heard musical experts around the world say the same thing about Williams...and I've heard the same words from the mouths of the top musical professors in this nation to dispute that idea.

And, to pro-actively defend myself from other attacks sure to follow, when I use the fact that I've heard too many others call Williams a genius as evidence or semi-basis for my calling him one...I'm not merely regurgitating what I've heard others say and I don't "believe everything people say" as Resident Alien would have everyone believe.

I'm just saying that I know music...and I know Williams' music...and I came to this conclusion and see that too many other people agree with me to think that I might be insane or wrong.
 
sarah navarro said:
Oh Snap !!!!Schooled Son!!!!:D
John Williams clearly fits that description.


Gee, damn shame then that I can't read his post. I do love being "schooled."

:rolleyes:

Guess, I'll go back to listening to my Metal Machine Music and Adult Themes For Voice. Or maybe some Antonin Artaud. You know some of that nice gentle pop music because obviously I don't know a damn thing about avant-garde music. :rolleyes:
 
Top