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Old 07-26-2011, 04:57 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Anyone catch the rank of the Sailor in the rickshaw?!!
Good question, Rocket, but as Montana noted, it doesn't look like the sailor is wearing any insignia at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
This soldier looks like he has the red shoulder board for the Artillerie:
You beat me to it, Smiffy! Yes, his piping is Artillery red.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
And now for the Mechanic. It's been suggested that his shoulder straps are the orange of the Feldgendarmerie (Field Police). However, in this photo they look much more yellow, which would place him in the Kavallerie:
I suggested orange/Field Police in the thread about Gobler but you *may* be onto something with the golden yellow. That said, I'm still not convinced.
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Old 07-26-2011, 06:33 PM   #52
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General Ross' badges

In KOTCS, General Ross wears quite a number of badges around his uniform, especially his awards and decorations. Here's my attempt to analyse them all!



I'll start from a view on General Ross' right:

A = Robert Ross is a two-star General, which gives him the rank of Major-General.
B = His former overseas wartime unit is the 4th Infantry Division.
C = The medal for Distinguished Unit Citation, referred to as the Presidential Unit Citation since 1966.
D = Army Staff Identification Badge. Back in 1957 it was called "Army General Staff Identification Badge".
E = General Ross has 8 overseas service bars on the lower right sleeve, which translates to 4 years of overseas service since each bar represents 6 months.

Now we go to the view of General Ross' left:

The badge on the left breast pocket is the "Office of the Secretary of Defense Identification Badge", but again back in 1957 it was called the "Department of Defense Identification Badge."
Wearing it shows that Ross is currently or had once been assigned to the DoD.
Unfortunately I have not been able to identify the current unit General Ross belongs to. For a while I thought that it was the insignia for the West Virginia National Guards, but on closer inspection the logo and colors simply didn't match up.

Insignia for the West Virginia National Guards


Here's my rough sketch of what I think the unit insignia looks like:
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Old 07-26-2011, 06:36 PM   #53
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General Ross' ribbons

Now we go to General Ross' awards and decorations:


With reference to the promotional shot of General Ross, as well as zooming in on the KOTCS screencap, I have duplicated the ribbons below.
(With thanks to Wikipedia for the ribbon illustrations and info)


(1) = 2nd Combat Infantry Badge. Implies that Ross had fought in two wars - WW2 and the Korean War
(2) = Distinguished Service Medal
(3) = Silver Star with one oak leaf cluster
(4) = Legion of Merit
(5) = Bronze Star with Valor device
(6) = Purple Heart with one oak leaf cluster
(7) = Army Commendation Medal
(8) = American Defense Service Medal
(9) = American Campaign Medal
(10) = European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal
(11) = World War II Victory Medal
(12) = Army of Occupation Medal
(13) = National Defense Service Medal
(14) = Korean Service Medal with at least 2 service stars, since the star in the promo shot is off-centered
(15) = United Nations Service Medal, which was later renamed "United Nations Service Medal Korea" in 1961

(14) & (15) imply that General Ross participated in the Korean War 1951-1953.

The oak leaf clusters and service stars denote multiple bestowal of the same award, with a silver star issued in lieu of five bronze stars. Same for the oak leaf clusters.
I could not tell the colors of the oak leaf clusters or the service stars from the promo shot.
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:43 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P Tom
In KOTCS, General Ross wears quite a number of badges around his uniform, especially his awards and decorations. Here's my attempt to analyse them all!
OUTSTANDING & EXCELLENT work, Mr. P Tom! I especially like your duplication of Ross' ribbon bars and great spot on the Korean War details. Thank you very much for your research and contributions! Way to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Tom
The "A" badge on the left shoulders is the insignia of the Fifteenth US Army, which was deactivated in 1946, well before the 1957 setting of KOTCS.
Very interesting, P Tom. Older uniforms would have been easier for the Russians to get a hold of than current (1957) ones. Maybe one of their agents went shopping at an army surplus store. Heh heh. ("I vould like to buy two dozen Amerikan uniformz, two dozen capz and two dozen pairz of bootz. All for big coztume party.")

Not much is known about characters like General Ross, Captain Blumburtt, etc. so analyzing their insignia tells us more about them and their history. (Which is why threads such as this are so nice to have. Who do we have to thank? Ourselves -The FANS!)
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Old 07-27-2011, 11:37 AM   #55
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Thanks! It's real fun learning new stuff when doing this type of Indy-related research.

As a matter in fact, I have just ID'ed General Ross' unit!



General Ross belongs to the United States Army Military District of Washington, one of the US Army's major commands.

There's no doubt that the insignia belongs to that unit.
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Old 07-27-2011, 05:00 PM   #56
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Great posts, P Tom!

Quote:
Originally Posted by P Tom
It's real fun learning new stuff when doing this type of Indy-related research.

This is what I'm finding, as well. The research leads to all sorts of detailed information I hadn't considered before.


VP's captures of Vogel reminded me that I'd overlooked the Iron Cross 1st Class fastened to his left breast pocket.



The setting being 1938, this would be a 1914 Iron Cross. The First Class (Das Eiserne Kreuz 1. Klasse) was awarded to a soldier distinguishing themself three or more times than required for the Second Class award, which was a single act of bravery in the face of the enemy, or actions that were clearly above and beyond the call of duty.

Whereas the 2nd Class was a double-sided medal issued with a ribbon (and the ribbon was the only part displayed on the uniform in normal circumstances), the 1st Class was a single-sided medal issued without a ribbon.

As it happens I received a replica 1914 1st Class Iron Cross today. It's of the convex type (the arms are curved backwards) with a screw-back instead of a hinged pin and catch. The screw-back was avaialble as a private purchase by the recipient, and was favoured by combat troops as it provided a more secure method of fastening to the tunic.



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Old 07-29-2011, 10:38 AM   #57
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I'll let you guys kill this one...

RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK
Nazi German Jacket



Quote:
From the first classic Indiana Jones movie comes this Nazi German Jacket costume.

Sourced from the Costumiers on the film, the large sized Jacket still retains the original insignia to the chest but lacks the shoulder epaulettes, although evidence of their presence remains. The lapel insignia may have been revised subsequent to filming (it is commonplace for costume insignia to be removed/reused/replaced during the life of a costume within the Costumiers).

Such costumes can be seen in various scenes throughout the movie as Indy battles with the Nazis in the quest for the Ark.

Indiana Jones pieces remain some of the most sought after pieces in the hobby and costumes featured in Raiders are virtually impossible to source.

It is also probable that the Jacket was reused for use in Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade.


Not yet up to snuff to contribute here, other than a little game: What's wrong with this picture?



I really do love this thread...thanks again guys!
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:46 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK
Nazi German Jacket





Not yet up to snuff to contribute here, other than a little game: What's wrong with this picture?

He has no face?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
I really do love this thread...thanks again guys!

Nah, I'm only being an idiot so as to echo Rocket: this thread is great, and I wish that I had some means of contributing. But know that I'm a reader.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:10 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Not yet up to snuff to contribute here, other than a little game: What's wrong with this picture?

It's missing one shoulder button. Is that it?
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Old 07-29-2011, 12:12 PM   #60
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More from The Last Crusade...

This guy looks to be the most senior officer under Vogel:



His collar tabs indicate that he's an SS-Sturmbannführer (Major).



He also has the Leibstandarte SS 'Adolf Hitler' cuff title. His only award is the 1914 Iron Cross 2nd Class, as shown by the black and white ribbon fastened to his second tunic button.

The actor (Luke Hanson) is credited as 'Principal SS Officer at Castle' on imdb.com.

The female officer, who appears to be in charge of the communications room at Brunwald, is an SS-Obersturmführer (Senior Lieutenant).



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Old 07-29-2011, 12:25 PM   #61
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^ Does the position of the eagle insignia on the uniform (on the shoulders, left chest, right chest) have any particular symbolism?
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Old 07-29-2011, 12:36 PM   #62
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^ Does the position of the eagle insignia on the uniform (on the shoulders, left chest, right chest) have any particular symbolism?

Yes, it's one of the noticable things that differentiate the army (Heer) from the SS.

Army uniforms have the eagle over the right breast pocket.

SS uniforms have the eagle on the left arm (but not usually on the black SS-Allgemeine uniform).

The Heer eagle:



The SS eagle:




I don't know much about female SS uniforms, and haven't found yet whether the placement is correct.
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Old 07-29-2011, 01:23 PM   #63
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I just discovered something that I've been looking a long time for...

In this picture you can just see a red ribbon over Vogel's right breast pocket.



It would be the same as on this uniform:



It's the ribbon for the Blutorden, or Blood Order medal, and makes Vogel's position even more impressive.

In his book, Himmler’s Black Order: A History of the SS 1923-1945 (1997), Robin Lumsden writes:

Quote:
Himmler prized the plain and simple Blutorden, or Blood Order, above all his other decorations. This medal, also known as the ‘Ehrenzeichen vom 9. November 1923’, recognized NSDAP members who had participated in the Beer Hall putsch or rendered outstanding services to the Nazi party during its formative years. The award became steeped in a deliberately cultivated mystique which guaranteed the wearer special privileges wherever he went.

The award was authorized by Hitler during March 1934. Hitler later amended the awarding regulation to include 30 May 1938 in recognition of special merit in the battle to unify Austria with Germany.

The inscription at the top edge of the reverse of the medal reads: “UND IHR HABT DOCH GESIEGT” (“And We Have Won After All”)





Here's a photo of the award being worn with the medal by SS-Oberführer Emil Maurice:




* Maurice was a bodyguard/driver of Hitler from the old days. He is credited with the suggestion for setting up a dedicated bodyguard for Hitler's protection, the organisation that ultimately became the SS.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/german_lea...l_Maurice.html
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Old 07-30-2011, 02:29 AM   #64
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Here is the image of an original (and therefore more accurate) Blood Order medal from Lumsden's book:



The hole in the ribbon would be from fastening it to the breast pocket button.


Still with The Last Crusade, the shipment of motorcycles to Castle Brunwald, appear to have originally been destined for the Army, not the SS:



The registration plate is prefixed 'WH', which was the designation for the Wehrmacht. Schutzstaffel vehicles had the 'SS' prefix.

However, the motorcyclists have Heer collar tabs (and Infanterie white shoulder straps) but are wearing SS helmets with the red shield Swastika on the left side.



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Old 07-30-2011, 03:15 PM   #65
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Quote:
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RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK
Nazi German Jacket
Not yet up to snuff to contribute here, other than a little game: What's wrong with this picture?

Don't think I've seen the eagle patch in gold/orange...

Something to consider if you're going to shell out £1,495.00 for the garment. The material looks a bit thin as well. Gobler and Dietrich look like they're wearing wool in the desert!
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Old 07-30-2011, 04:26 PM   #66
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Don't think I've seen the eagle patch in gold/orange...

Something to consider if you're going to shell out £1,495.00 for the garment. The material looks a bit thin as well. Gobler and Dietrich look like they're wearing wool in the desert!

That's the Afrika Korps breast eagle, Rocket. There can be quite a variation in colour from dull tan to golden yellow.

The tunic looks much more like those worn by the other soldiers in the movie. As here, which also shows the eagle:



Though in the photos in the link they were implying that it was a 'hero' tunic, and seemed to be using that to bump the price up.
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Old 07-30-2011, 05:24 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
That's the Afrika Korps breast eagle, Rocket. There can be quite a variation in colour from dull tan to golden yellow.

The tunic looks much more like those worn by the other soldiers in the movie.
'Tana-Montana Smiffy beat me to the punch again! There a loads of orange/yellow eagles in "Raiders".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
However, the motorcyclists have Heer collar tabs (and Infanterie white shoulder straps) but are wearing SS helmets with the red shield Swastika on the left side.
Yeah, I noticed this mix-up/goof, too. There also seems to be a colour mis-match between the motorcyclists' collar tabs & epaulettes.

(The motorcycle chase was a hastily shot, "last minute" scene so the errors can be easily excused.)
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Old 07-30-2011, 05:34 PM   #68
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That's the Afrika Korps breast eagle, Rocket.
That's good to know, though I'm curious about it's presence with "green collar tags" as Stoo puts it.

Seems from the shots the Afrika Korps had high "shirt" collars, (excepting the U-Boat pics, unless that's a punt as well...), where the item for sale and Gobler/Dietrich have coat lapels...
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Old 07-30-2011, 05:42 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
That's good to know, though I'm curious about it's presence with "green collar tags" as Stoo puts it.

The seller explained it away with...

Quote:
The lapel insignia may have been revised subsequent to filming (it is commonplace for costume insignia to be removed/reused/replaced during the life of a costume within the Costumiers).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Seems from the shots the Afrika Korps had high "shirt" collars, (excepting the U-Boat pics...), where the item for sale and Gobler/Dietrich have coat lapels...

I think it looks similar to the one with the soldiers holding Marion. The tunic for sale is a big size, and it's probably swamping the dummy?
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Old 07-30-2011, 05:48 PM   #70
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Quote:
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The seller explained it away...
I think it's bogus! Are the two insignia never together?

The Gold Eagle/Green Bars?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I think it looks similar to the one with the soldiers holding Marion. The tunic for sale is a big size, and it's probably swamping the dummy?
The material looks thinner, noticeably by the fall/crease of the lapel, (vs the fellow on the left).
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:31 PM   #71
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I think it's bogus! Are the two insignia never together?

The Gold Eagle/Green Bars?

The green of the collar patch is the backing cloth. The arm of service is shown by the white piping in the centre of the grey cotton bars. Being plain cotton these bars indicate a rank of enlisted man or NCO (Soldat to Feldwebel). The white piping could be for Infantry, Motorcycle units, Machine-Gun battalions, Army Recruiting personnel, General command, Army anti-aircraft units, War College, and other affiliations.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:33 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
The green of the collar patch is the backing cloth. The arm of service is shown by the white piping in the centre of the grey cotton bars. Being plain cotton these bars indicate a rank of enlisted man or NCO (Soldat to Feldwebel). The white piping could be for Infantry, Motorcycle units, Machine-Gun battalions, Army Recruiting personnel, General command, Army anti-aircraft units, War College, and other affiliations.
Is the green significant?
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Old 07-31-2011, 03:33 PM   #73
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Is the green significant?

I think it relates to the patches worn on the dress uniform. The service uniform generally used a dark bluish green backing.

Since this prop uniform isn't dress uniform it looks odd.
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Old 08-09-2011, 04:02 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I think it relates to the patches worn on the dress uniform. The service uniform generally used a dark bluish green backing.

Since this prop uniform isn't dress uniform it looks odd.
Since the orange border of the eagle vs the black has some meaning, I was wondering if the green did as well...
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:19 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I just discovered something that I've been looking a long time for...

In this picture you can just see a red ribbon over Vogel's right breast pocket.



It would be the same as on this uniform:



It's the ribbon for the Blutorden, or Blood Order medal, and makes Vogel's position even more impressive.

In his book, Himmler’s Black Order: A History of the SS 1923-1945 (1997), Robin Lumsden writes:



The award was authorized by Hitler during March 1934. Hitler later amended the awarding regulation to include 30 May 1938 in recognition of special merit in the battle to unify Austria with Germany.

The inscription at the top edge of the reverse of the medal reads: “UND IHR HABT DOCH GESIEGT” (“And We Have Won After All”)





Here's a photo of the award being worn with the medal by SS-Oberführer Emil Maurice:




* Maurice was a bodyguard/driver of Hitler from the old days. He is credited with the suggestion for setting up a dedicated bodyguard for Hitler's protection, the organisation that ultimately became the SS.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/german_lea...l_Maurice.html
Wow I was completely unaware of that. Thanks!
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