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Old 08-17-2011, 02:59 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Von Stalhein
Wow I was completely unaware of that. Thanks!

It was nice to finally solve the mystery of that ribbon!
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:22 AM   #77
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Here's both sides of an original Blutorden:





The inscription "UND IHR HABT DOCH GESIEGT" is perhaps better translated as "And Yet You Have Triumphed".
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Old 08-19-2011, 03:13 AM   #78
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Captain Katanga's Communist naval cap...



IMDB's Raiders goofs page records the following:

Quote:
Anachronisms: Captain Katanga's hat bears the insignia of the navy of the Yugoslav People's Army, which existed from 1945 until 1991. The emblem with red star is quite visible.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082971/goofs

However, I can't find a picture to confirm this. Searching for YPA naval insignia brought up these images:





The wreath on Katanga's cap has three distinct branches on each side, whereas the YPA image shows four.
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Old 08-19-2011, 05:03 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Captain Katanga's Communist naval cap...

The wreath on Katanga's cap has three distinct branches on each side, whereas the YPA image shows four.
Nice, Montana. That's a tough one! Apart from the leaf details, it's almost identical.

Speaking of the Bantu Wind, one of the "pirates" is wearing a French Infantry officer's kepi (1885-1905 pattern) with no unit number.

While the top 'turban' part doesn't appear to be red in the film, it is and I've attempted to juice up the colour in some of these screengrabs to show that it's NOT black. Hopefully, the colour difference is noticeable.

I've always thought it was a lieutenant's kepi but upon closer inspection it MIGHT BE a captain's. The width of the vertical braids look too thick to be a single stripe (for lieutenant) and closer to the width of a double stripe (for captain). In the bottom right pair of photos, when the crew surrenders to the Germans, you can see 3 horizontal braids (captain). Spacing between each stripe varies because of different manufacturers...or the hat becomes crumpled.

Plus, I'm pretty sure that the standard chinstrap for lieutenants was always gold (seen here above the visors)...and the one in "Raiders" isn't. In the top left photos, you can see the gilt, fastening pin...look for the little, yellow dot. In some of the photos, light is reflecting on the brim of the visor but it ain't the chinstrap.

Opinions?

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Old 08-20-2011, 12:44 AM   #80
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There always seems something new to discover in Raiders, as I never noticed this before!

These are cropped pictures from VP's collection. In the first one the two vertical bands are visible, but are close together:







The hat appears to be black, and with the chinstrap missing.

I wonder if it's the kepi of a captain of a French fire brigade, similar to this slightly squashed one from the early Third Republic (1870-):

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Old 08-20-2011, 09:20 AM   #81
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Excellent picks...can't wait to dig in to these!
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:38 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
There always seems something new to discover in Raiders, as I never noticed this before!
That's the beauty of threads like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
These are cropped pictures from VP's collection. In the first one the two vertical bands are visible, but are close together:

The hat appears to be black, and with the chinstrap missing.

I wonder if it's the kepi of a captain of a French fire brigade, similar to this slightly squashed one from the early Third Republic (1870-):
I was seeing a dark, maroon type red when juicing up the colours but VP screengrabs show that it is indeed black and definitely with captain's insignia. If the fire brigade was the only one to use an all-black kepi, I think you've nailed it, Smiffy! Good show, ol' boy!
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:47 PM   #83
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I don't wanna get everyone excited, as it may just be a goof in the costume department, BUT... I think I just noticed something new

In Raiders, I'm pretty certain that the metal Nazi eagles on Gbler and Dietrich's uniforms are different. Gobler's eagle appears to be gold, while the one on Dietrich's cap is silver. The difference is best seen when they are concluding their discussion with Belloq, standing side by side, just before they introduce Toht at the digsite.

Also, of minor note, the shirt/collar Dietrich is wearing beneath his tunic also appears to be different to that of Gobler. Dietrich's is a mint-ish colour, while Gobler's is khaki.

Perhaps you can post the screenshots, so we can see if I'm right AND if I'm the first to notice
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Old 08-24-2011, 03:33 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by ArnoldTohtFan
I don't wanna get everyone excited, as it may just be a goof in the costume department, BUT... I think I just noticed something new

In Raiders, I'm pretty certain that the metal Nazi eagles on Gbler and Dietrich's uniforms are different. Gobler's eagle appears to be gold, while the one on Dietrich's cap is silver. The difference is best seen when they are concluding their discussion with Belloq, standing side by side, just before they introduce Toht at the digsite.

Also, of minor note, the shirt/collar Dietrich is wearing beneath his tunic also appears to be different to that of Gobler. Dietrich's is a mint-ish colour, while Gobler's is khaki.

Perhaps you can post the screenshots, so we can see if I'm right AND if I'm the first to notice

This must be the scene you're referring to:



If it is a gold cap eagle, and not a trick of the light reflected by the desert, then it suggests he's wearing Kriegsmarine (Navy) insigina, or that of a general.

The difference in shirt colour may be explained by the choice open to higher officers to privately purchase better quality clothing.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:16 AM   #85
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By the looks of the picture it is a gold one, most probably a slip-up in the costume department. Of course the gold eagles were also worn by Nazi politicians, the bigwigs in the tan uniforms and brown-visor peaked caps (Hitler and Goebbels in Last Crusade) as opposed to the silver adornments of the Wehrmacht and SS (Vogel and Himmler in Last Crusade).

Even for a slip-up, its hard to understand why it occured in the first place. As far as goofs go, it seems similar in nature to Toht carrying the yet-to-be-invented Walther P38 as opposed to the period-correct Luger or Walther PP/K

Side note (damn these tangents of mine) I wonder why Gobler didn't drive the staff car, seeing as he is a Major (like Toht) and a de-facto fourth villain, albeit a minor one.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:58 AM   #86
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I was always curious, at the end of TOD when the British come to the rescue Captain Blumburtt's soldiers seem to have two different types of headgear. Some seem to have a blue turban and others have a khaki hat. I assumed that maybe it had to do with religious differences. All the major religions of India are associated with turbans, especially Sikhs, though this does not appear to be a typical Sikh turban. Anybody have any idea about this?
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Old 09-14-2012, 02:39 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
I was always curious, at the end of TOD when the British come to the rescue Captain Blumburtt's soldiers seem to have two different types of headgear. Some seem to have a blue turban and others have a khaki hat. I assumed that maybe it had to do with religious differences. All the major religions of India are associated with turbans, especially Sikhs, though this does not appear to be a typical Sikh turban. Anybody have any idea about this?

The blue turbans are Sikh:





Sikhs during the First World War:



51st Sikhs (Frontier Force), c.1905:




A turban used by an Indian Sepoy (an Indian soldier in European service):



http://amitavghosh.com/blog/?m=201207


The broad-brimmed hats with turned up sides are likely Hindus.

Sergeant-Major Gandhi while serving in the Ambulance Corps during the Second Boer War (1899):





EDIT:

These illustrations may throw the Sikh idea back into the melting pot as they may even be Muslims:




Last edited by Montana Smith : 09-14-2012 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:26 AM   #88
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@dr.jones1986: Oh, goodie! A discussion about British Raj uniforms in "Temple of Doom"! Been wanting to do this since for a lo-o-o-ong time!

@Montana Smiff: More on this later...After I finish blabbing about seeing "Raiders" on IMAX just a few hours ago (while the memories are still fresh), I'm going to 'GO APE' on this subject!

---
EDIT: Just wanted to mention that the word, "puggaree", means, "turban". (A closer pronunciation would be "pagri / pakri".) It became mandatory for colonial British troops to have a piece of cloth (puggaree) folded & wrapped around their helmets in countries with Muslims. This particular "look" became standard to the point where puggarees were a staple on any 1930s pith helmet.

Last edited by Stoo : 09-14-2012 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:57 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Stoo
@Montana Smiff: More on this later...I'm going to 'GO APE' on this subject!

Looking forward to that.

This is one of the few Indy related subjects that still remain of interest to me.
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:59 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
...Captain Blumburtt's soldiers seem to have two different types of headgear. Some seem to have a blue turban and others have a khaki hat. I assumed that maybe it had to do with religious differences. All the major religions of India are associated with turbans, especially Sikhs, though this does not appear to be a typical Sikh turban. Anybody have any idea about this?
It's Alive! Nice ressurection! This thread ALWAYS entertains and informs...

And the crew does not disappoint:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
The blue turbans are Sikh... The broad-brimmed hats with turned up sides are likely Hindus. Sergeant-Major Gandhi while serving in the Ambulance Corps during the Second Boer War (1899)...These illustrations may throw the Sikh idea back into the melting pot as they may even be Muslims

Gandhi? Looks like Lee Harvey...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Just wanted to mention that the word, "puggaree", means, "turban". (A closer pronunciation would be "pagri / pakri".) It became mandatory for colonial British troops to have a piece of cloth (puggaree) folded & wrapped around their helmets in countries with Muslims. This particular "look" became standard to the point where puggarees were a staple on any 1930s pith helmet.

Mein Gott! Temple has depth!

Looking forwards as well!
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:20 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Looking forward to that.

This is one of the few Indy related subjects that still remain of interest to me.

I knew you guys would be game for this tread being revived. I have a great interest in British imperialism, took a course on it in college and this difference in uniform has always perplexed me. I always assumed the difference in headgear was based on religion. It seems that the hats are Hindu (Gandhi was a Hindu and that photo helps) and I know that Sikhs have always had a strong connection to the British during the Raj but I wasn't positive based on the look of the turban. That last image of different types of Indian turbans still raises the possibility that they could be Muslim.

Last edited by dr.jones1986 : 09-14-2012 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:53 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
I was always curious, at the end of TOD when the British come to the rescue Captain Blumburtt's soldiers seem to have two different types of headgear. Some seem to have a blue turban and others have a khaki hat. I assumed that maybe it had to do with religious differences. All the major religions of India are associated with turbans, especially Sikhs, though this does not appear to be a typical Sikh turban. Anybody have any idea about this?
The entire, European colonial period is a pet passion of mine and my specialty is the Brits. (DISCLAIMER: I have never been to India and am not an expert but do know quite a bit about its day under British Raj.) To fully explore these uniforms will take a few posts so, please, bear with me!

First things first:

You’re right, dr.jones1986. This is not a typical Sikh turban because they have never typically used the cone-shaped, “kulla” cap, though there are a few exceptions here & there (Ex. the 51st Sikhs as shown in the photo Smiffy posted – more on them later). This style of turban was worn mostly by Muslims and mostly in India’s northwest region (which is, mostly, now Pakistan) & also in Afghanistan. Making an educated guess, I’d say that these sepoys/soldiers are Muslims from the Punjab or Rajputana (even though they lack a sufficient amount of facial hair). More on that later...

The men in slouch hats are undoubtedly meant to represent either Kumaoni troops (Hindu) from India or Gurkha troops (Hindu) from Nepal or Burmese troops (Buddhist) from Burma (even though their faces don’t look Nepalese or Burmese). More to come about that, too...

Turbans only have religious meaning with Sikhism so in this case, the contrast in headgear is largely due to what region the men were recruited from. What we are seeing is 2 different units (but could possibly be part of the same, “mixed class” regiment).

Now, this leads to a previous comment I made at the start of the thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Montana Smiffy can obviously focus on the Germans and I can easily do the British & Indian troops since that is my area of expertise. (Please, leave them to me because I can't wait to finally expose a glaring goof about the Poona Rifles.)
Blumburtt says he is from the 11th Poona Rifles. Neither of these units resemble the real-life Poona Rifles (more on them later) but what has always amused me is that some of the shoulder flashes say, “12”!

I really want to know: What is on the OTHER shoulder flash?


Can anyone assist? I haven’t seen “Doom” in the theatre since its initial release and don’t have the Blu-ray yet. This particular detail can’t be clearly seen on VHS or DVD. Can anybody with the Blu-ray describe or post an image of this mystery shoulder flash? Please help because it’s damned IMPORTANT!

---
P.S. Dr.Jones1986, I was notified that you tried to PM me but my Raven Inbox was full. Made some room for ya.
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Old 09-27-2012, 03:01 PM   #93
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A most excellent post, Stewie.

Keep 'em, coming!
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:39 PM   #94
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Glad to see this discussion will continue. The reason I figured it was religious and not because they were from different parts of India is due to the fact that they are said to be the 11th Poona Rifles. I figured all of Blumburtt's men would be from this unit and would hail from the same region of the country. That screenshot of the #12 adds an interesting dilhemma are they meant to be a separate unit or was this just a goof on screen.
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:59 PM   #95
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...they are said to be the 11th Poona Rifles.

When you first asked about the headgear I looked at my copy of the WEG TOD Sourcebook, and they'd somehow recorded the 11th Poona Rifles as "11th Puma Rifles" !

Apparently this was also the case with The Ultimate Guide and The Lost Journal.
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:27 AM   #96
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When you first asked about the headgear I looked at my copy of the WEG TOD Sourcebook, and they'd somehow recorded the 11th Poona Rifles as "11th Puma Rifles" !

Apparently this was also the case with The Ultimate Guide and The Lost Journal.

Couldn't they secure the rights to the name?
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Old 09-28-2012, 12:11 PM   #97
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Couldn't they secure the rights to the name?

I'm still looking for photos of the 11th Poonani Rifles.
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Old 09-28-2012, 12:19 PM   #98
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I'm still looking for photos of the 11th Poonani Rifles.
Turn off your "NetNanny"...
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Old 09-28-2012, 12:42 PM   #99
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Turn off your "NetNanny"...

Okay.

No, something's wrong.

I can't see any rifles, or where they keep their ammunition, unless...
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:44 PM   #100
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Key The Izzat of the Raj

Continuing the conversation/identification of turbans:

Here is a comparison between WW2-era kulla/kullah caps and those seen in "Temple of Doom". The costume department did an execellent job in this case. The only difference is the air vents (and I'm not sure when those were added). That's O.K., though, because these sepoys seem to be wearing older uniforms in general. Much of it is outdated for the mid-1930s (which is entirely believable/justifiable). More on the uniforms later...

In the 1930s, these types of 2-piece turbans became less common amongst British Indian troops (replaced by berets or helmets) but there were some regiments who still wore them.

Like before, gathering together everything I know, it can safely be said that these turban-wearing troops in, "Temple of Doom", are most likely either Punjabs or Rajputs. (Punjabi or Rajputani).

MORE details about those "Doom" turbans to come...
(After that, it's the nitty-gritty details about the uniforms!...and after that, it's the Gurkha troops!)
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