How KOTCS could've been made better?

IndyJones5183

New member
Henry W Jones said:
I can deal with aliens, nukes, CGI ants, groundhogs, 3 times it drops, and even Mutt, but the truck scene was a huge let down since it should have been the best scene IMO. The sword fight looked fake, the monkeys were ridiculous, the CGI cliff edge they should have went over 20 times was corny and not getting hurt when Spalko drives over the Duck. Yeah right. It is what it is and I still like the movie regardless but if they make Pt 5 they need to go back to the way they filmed Raiders and use the computer less. Not copy the movie just the grittiness it possessed. The way Raiders was shot is fitting for the style of movie it's supposed to be.

Just my thoughts of the movie.
This has been a discussion with the Indy fans in my house.I do agree less CGI.I didn't care much for the monkey scene either,I also felt there were characters they didn't need(Mac,Oxley,and Irena)if they would have changed a little bit of the storyline and rewrote the characters, I think it would've been a better movie.The movie almost had a Star Wars feel to it(which it shouldn't have, being separate from one another).I did like the KOTCS a little, being the first Indy movie(I wasn't born yet to see the first one in the theaters,the second movie came out when I was a year old,and I was six when the third movie came out) I've seen in the theaters,but it could have been better.
 

Henry W Jones

New member
IndyJones5183 said:
Just my thoughts of the movie.
This has been a discussion with the Indy fans in my house.I do agree less CGI.I didn't care much for the monkey scene either,I also felt there were characters they didn't need(Mac,Oxley,and Irena)if they would have changed a little bit of the storyline and rewrote the characters, I think it would've been a better movie.The movie almost had a Star Wars feel to it(which it shouldn't have, being separate from one another).I did like the KOTCS a little, being the first Indy movie(I wasn't born yet to see the first one in the theaters,the second movie came out when I was a year old,and I was six when the third movie came out) I've seen in the theaters,but it could have been better.


George goes too far these days cuz he can and in the process forgets to keep things in perspective. Raiders truck scene was done with stunt work and camera tricks and to me looks like it's really happening. KOTCS's truck scene is obvious computer work thru-out. I think even the newer Star Wars movies were over the top at points. The Obi-Wan/Vader fight on Mustafar is cool until they are floating over the lava then it starts to become unbelievable like Mutt standing between two vehicles sword fighting while taking a nut shot then swinging with monkeys. Once again I like KOTCS I just think it could have been a little better.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Henry W Jones said:
I didn't have a problem with the edge idea but I thought it looked to CGI, and where in Clone Wars EP is the skull?
When Ahsoka is fighting the Trandoshian leader (in his quarters). There are heads on the wall... a la Predator 2 one of which is the crystal skull. The Ark appears in another episode (can't remember which one).

Henry W Jones said:
George goes too far these days cuz he can and in the process forgets to keep things in perspective. Raiders truck scene was done with stunt work and camera tricks and to me looks like it's really happening. KOTCS's truck scene is obvious computer work thru-out. I think even the newer Star Wars movies were over the top at points. The Obi-Wan/Vader fight on Mustafar is cool until they are floating over the lava then it starts to become unbelievable like Mutt standing between two vehicles sword fighting while taking a nut shot then swinging with monkeys. Once again I like KOTCS I just think it could have been a little better.
Whilst I would strongly advocate the approach that 'less is more'; I think the days of having an all out action movie/set piece without the use of CGI is long gone. I've always been of the opinion that the truck and tank chase are amongst the greatest action scenes of all time... however, many of my friends (who are a bit younger and part of the 'x-box generation') find the early movies 'boring' (both Indy and Star Wars). They expect the screen to be filled with photorealistic effects/explosions with the sound cranked up to 11. That of course doesn't mean their modern standards/expectations are better... but they are different nonetheless. By the way - I agree with you on the Obi/Anakin duel on Mustafar. I think it's a very good sequence, but it would have been much stronger without the floating platforms element... That's where every movie needs an objective editor (Star Wars and Indy no exception).

I think there is always a middle ground to be found with modern action movies. The jungle chase had (on the whole) a good mix of live action and effects. I think we'd all agree that without the sword fight and vines, the entire scene would have been much better. I think it's quite feasible that someone somewhere can make an effects driven movie, with state of the art techniques, that still aligns to more traditional sensibilities (but it will more than likely be the guys influenced by Lucas/Spielberg and not the beards themselves).
 

IndyJones5183

New member
Henry W Jones said:
George goes too far these days cuz he can and in the process forgets to keep things in perspective. Raiders truck scene was done with stunt work and camera tricks and to me looks like it's really happening. KOTCS's truck scene is obvious computer work thru-out. I think even the newer Star Wars movies were over the top at points. The Obi-Wan/Vader fight on Mustafar is cool until they are floating over the lava then it starts to become unbelievable like Mutt standing between two vehicles sword fighting while taking a nut shot then swinging with monkeys. Once again I like KOTCS I just think it could have been a little better.


I know I agree.I wished he kept it as low tech as possible.In long run, I think it would've helped the movie.
 

JerryKing

Member
Take out the aliens, Shia, the fridge and Mac.
Put in a fabled religious artifact, Henry Senior, someone in Pat Roach's place, and Sallah.

That might actually do it.
 
JerryKing said:
Take out the aliens, Shia, the fridge and Mac.
Put in a fabled religious artifact, Henry Senior, someone in Pat Roach's place, and Sallah. That might actually do it.
I'm with you for the most part.

No need to put Sr in again...enough with the family crap. Mac was a good idea and a Winstone a decent actor, the material sucked though.

Jijikine was a fine replacement for Roach, though a second role might have been a better way to honor the past films instead of the paint by numbers crud.

No need for Sallah like there was no need for Marion. Fine if he's got some way to further the story but to scotch tape them in...(n) I get a kick out of people saying Raiders had racist tones. That the arabs were stereo types, but I guess it's easy to forget Sallah was originally a (successful?)professional and a family man with friends from all walks of life.

He was pasted into Crusade the same way Marion was pasted into Skull.(n)

Like you wrote:

Take out the aliens, Shia, the fridge...Put in a fabled religious artifact...That might actually do it.:hat:
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Let's take the basic ideas of KOTCS, the basic story etc and try to make a better film out of it. My personal opinion is that the general ideas present in KOTCS are worthy, they simply suffer in execution. I think KOTCS had the potential to be an awesome film, on par with the others, it just wasn't done right. I'm fine with aliens in Indy myself. I'm fine with going that route. The general ideas presented are good, but they need tweaking IMO.

Here's my ideas on how to tweak KOTCS to put it up on par with the other three:


For me, if you:

-Retool the Mac/Indy storyline so it has more of an emotional impact. Give Mac a little more backstory to make his "double agent" ways more understandable.

-Focus a little more on Indy's age and the fact that he has NOTHING: No wife, no family, his father's dead, Marcus is dead, his country thinks he's a traitor. Accentuate Indy's sense of being alone--not to the point of melodrama--but to the emotional levels of TLC perhaps. He's a man without a family, without a country, who can't even trust his friends. A man who is becoming a relic in his own time as the autumn of his life comes ever closer. A more "Robin and Marian" feel in certain respects. Rather than have him tamed by age as KOTCS does, have him embittered by his sense of loss, his sense of betrayal, by the changing times. Not a bitter old man per se...But more a Lion in Winter. Still an anti-hero, just older, gruffer, a little more grizzled, more jaded perhaps. A man who is less impulsive but still willing to do what he has to do to survive. A weary old Cowboy weathered by changing times, loss and age. Not the family friendly old fogie we got, whose age is the cause of kids' laughter. No "Get on, Gramps." No jokey jabs at his age. An older man, but not a Grandpa per se. Think of the old Western movies with the old, rough cowboy or gunfighter. No "Indy is becoming his father" stuff. Maybe that can be touched on, but in terms of him becoming wiser and more careful--Not being soft.

-No prairie dogs or Tarzan scene. Nix it. No prairie dogs.

-His name is Indiana Jones. Not Henry Jones, Jr. Stop calling him Henry Jones, Jr.

-Make Oxley a character we care about. Give us more time with "normal Ox" rather than "Old nutcase Hippie babbling" Ox. Maybe if they really wanted to break from tradition, the prologue could've started off with Ox going on the search for the Skull and being captured. We'd see Ox before the Skull destroys his mind. We'd see that Ox is a man like Indy but more the professor side of Indy. A gentlemen grave robber. Sort of a friend who is the closest thing to Abner Ravenwood that we'd ever see.

-Have Indy participate in a gun fight, on a scale not seen since TOD or the Raiders bar scene, and have Indy kill a few people. Have a moment where it seems Indy is dead or done for. Perhaps Mutt steps up to the plate here and save his life in Mutt's one major action scene and something that shows him to have the moxy of a Jones.

-Have Indy participate in more action; Lessen Mutt's role in that regard. Make the Jungle chase the centerpiece action sequence of the movie ala the Truck scene from Raiders or the Tank chase in LC.

-Perhaps jettison "Mutt as a Greaser" completely or retool his character a bit; Make him harder edged or more original. Make him close to the real, brutal '50s juvenile delinquents you see in films like Sometimes They Come Back. Or have him be Indy's daughter rather than son on the extreme end of things.

-Get rid of Doom Town, or put something just as tense but more realistic in it's place.

-Retool the film from Marion's entrance to make that have more depth, more of an emotional sort of feel. A little more dialogue between them, a moment or two with them alone. We don't need a sex scene, just a little tender moment which echoes Raiders. Maybe Marion tending to Indy's scars, but he's older, the pain isn't as easy to bear. Or something where they have a delicate moment. Think of the tender moments between Henry II and Eleanor in The Lion in Winter. Two old hardasses at each others' throats who deep down never stopped loving each other.

-Make the Aliens a larger presence in the movie, if unseen. Unseen eyes ever watching. Eerie sort of feel. Think Twilight Zone-ish perhaps. Make the film have a creepy undertone and the Aliens have a slightly sinister presence. Sinister, but good, like God in Raiders. Think of how you KNOW something dangerous, dark and sinister lurks within the Ark and how it's treated with this eerie, mystical aura throughout the film until it's full power is revealed at the end

-Either eliminate the wedding or make it more believable. Make it clear how Indy's reputation is restored. Don't make him an Associate Dean. Just do something like James Bond where he gets his 00 back at the end. Have at least Sallah be present at the wedding or Short Round. At least some further connection to the original 3.

-Add another twenty or thirty minutes or so onto the movie to fill some of these issues out. This is Indy's last ride, right? We can afford 20-30 minutes more if it makes the film that much better.

-Shoot the film in a style similar to the first three. Less wide shots, etc. Sometimes I feel when watching it that the direction STYLE feels too modern; It does't feel at times like the hand of Spielberg. Certain shots just don't say "Spielberg" to me. The direction doesn't feel as tight as Spielberg's; Certain shots remind me of Lucas' style actually. A little better editing here and there. Have the cinematography be less "1950s oversatured look" and closer to the original film's look.

I have a rough idea both how to flesh out Mac's character and create an action set piece to start off the film. Have the prologue of the film be a flashback to say 1944 or something. Think Utah 1912. Indy and Mac are on a mission, to collect an artifact or something, as spies. Mac maybe saves Indy's life; we see their comraderie. Bridge it somehow to the Hangar sequence so it doesn't feel disjointed. Have the Paramount logo dissolve into something less stupid than a molehill. I repeat again: No prairie dogs.

The film should also have followed the trope of Indy going from the fire pan to the fire. What I mean is each thing he faces should be more dangerous than the last. It builds, with pauses for exposition in between. and builds again. In KOTCs, Indy faces his biggest threat (Doom Town) in the first 15 minutes and we never come as close to death with him again. The structure set by the previous films--A serial sort of feel, edge of our seat sort of feel--is broken here.

Films/TV shows to look at for reference: The Lion in Winter, Robin & Marian, The Misfits, Hitchcock's films, some of the darker 50's B movies, The Twilight Zone, The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit, The Gunfighter, The Man with No Name series.

If all of the above had happened, I believe we would've had a classic film on par with the other three.

But, submit your own ideas and tweaks and whatnot, please :D
 
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Raiders90

Well-known member
Also, I did a google site search for a thread of this sort before I wrote this: https://www.google.com/#q=site:rave....,cf.osb&fp=2303290c933ce3a0&biw=1138&bih=529

But, that won't matter I suppose. Stoo has continued to play Mod and attempted to get me banned again (as he has done TWICE, so he knows what he's doing at this point), the thread will be merged or I will be banned or both, and in any event, the work I put into the thread will be for nil.
 

Gear

New member
BAHAHAHA.. He made a poop joke.


Raiders112390 said:
-Get rid of Doom Town, or put something just as tense but more realistic in it's place.

That's one of my favorite scenes. About the only stupid gimmick it had, I thought, was the Russians watching the fridge fly over their car.

Even Howdy Doody playing on the TV set had an arguable point; maybe the designers of the test range wanted to see how the intense radiation would affect such signals. Also, it does the job of conveying to the viewer the cultural changes since we last saw him on film.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Gear said:
That's one of my favorite scenes. About the only stupid gimmick it had, I thought, was the Russians watching the fridge fly over their car.

Yeah, you can't ditch Doom Town. Just needed to polish the refrigerator landing scene to make it more acceptable.

Gear said:
Even Howdy Doody playing on the TV set had an arguable point; maybe the designers of the test range wanted to see how the intense radiation would affect such signals. Also, it does the job of conveying to the viewer the cultural changes since we last saw him on film.

Howdy Doody's become a staple reference to the '50s - with Back To The Future and Hellboy 2. The '50s won't be complete without it any more.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Raiders112390 said:
And I wait for the inevitable ban that comes from Stoo's crusade. Congrats, you did it again buddy!

Also, I did a google site search for a thread of this sort before I wrote this: https://www.google.com/#q=site:rave....,cf.osb&fp=2303290c933ce3a0&biw=1138&bih=529

But, that won't matter I suppose. Stoo has continued to play Mod and attempted to get me banned again (as he has done TWICE, so he knows what he's doing at this point), the thread will be merged or I will be banned or both, and in any event, the work I put into the thread will be for nil.

Raiders112390, as I've explained to you multiple times, I'm not "attempting to get you banned". You wanted to read other people's ideas and I'm pointing to places where such things can be found. Plus, providing paths to previous threads is not "playing Mod". When I (or someone else) give links to other folks about similar/same topics, they don't get upset about it.

Your "work" will still exist if this thread gets merged so what's the big deal?:confused:
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Raiders112390 said:
And I wait for the inevitable ban that comes from Stoo's crusade. Congrats, you did it again buddy!
For what it's worth, we'd probably been able to recall this distinct idea taken to the table earlier and done some merging work even without Stoo's intervention. So the knuckle rap was inevitable.


And here it comes...

You naughty, naughty boy! No dessert for you tonight!
 
how could KOTCS couldve been made better? Get a time machine and travel back to before Last Crusade and try to convince Spielberg to drop the family gimmick: just stick to the serial formula, and keep your daddy issues to yourself.
 

kongisking

Active member
Sigh. How many times are we going to complain about how this could have gone?










Oh, wait. It's the Internet. Slipped my mind, sorry...:p
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
These complaints are constructive criticism. As much as the wisdom of Harry Hindsight won't change CS, talking about how it could have been better is a great exercise in creativity and is simply a sign of our fandom. I wish a fan written Indy flick could be made on the same scale with no expectations to follow politics, precedents or narrow formulas. Just for unbounded creativity. Short of that we talk about the 'what ifs' here.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Mickiana said:
These complaints are constructive criticism. As much as the wisdom of Harry Hindsight won't change CS, talking about how it could have been better is a great exercise in creativity and is simply a sign of our fandom. I wish a fan written Indy flick could be made on the same scale with no expectations to follow politics, precedents or narrow formulas. Just for unbounded creativity. Short of that we talk about the 'what ifs' here.

Fan made movies (to whatever degree) usually end up like Snakes on a Plane and Alien V Predator: Requiem. Infinitely worse than anything Spielberg and Lucas have done (IMHO). Whilst I do think these type of discussions can be fun, and worth being part of, I don't think it's actually that constructive... in that we're not going to change/influence anything and probably 99.9% of all people here have nothing to do with the movie or television industry.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
You can polish KOTCS until it reflects our personal vision, but the faces of George and Steven will always be looking back at us as well.

What we really need is Doc Brown's time travelling refrigerator.

It's curious that Robert Zemeckis said the the fridge was ditched from BTTF because they were afraid children would be climbing into their own refrigerators.

By 2008 children either weren't so dumb, or Lucas never expected a child to imitate the actions of an old man...
 
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