Does the finale hold up to the original 3? (thoughts & opinions)
- Thread starter michael
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Darth Vile
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Udvarnoky said:
My you are being pedantic this afternoon. I specifically quoted your line “allowing the size of Akator to register”, because I didn’t want to see more shots of Indy and co. looking amazed or in awe at something off camera (or necessarily see them walking slowly through ruins)… I simply wanted a longer shot showing the scale/detail of Akator. I think it’s logical to assume that if Spielberg/Lucas had given the audience that shot, it would have been a visual effects shot.
I don’t have an issue with the speed they get down the steps, or to the other side. Where it could have done with a more comprehensive establishing shot is when they reach the top of the obelisk.Udvarnoky said:
Which page of the Udvarnoky book of filmmaking does it proportion establishing shot to scale of structure?Udvarnoky said:
Udvarnoky said:
You are purporting that KOTCS doesn’t use establishing shots as effectively as the other movies (specifically in relation to Akator). I disagree. It just establishes them in a different way. For example, where is the establishing shot of the South American temple in Raiders? What about Pankot palace? It’s just a 5 second pan of matte painting. The most significant establish is that of the grail temple, which clearly they lingered on because it’s a real/beautiful piece of ancient architecture (although it still takes my out of the moment, as I’ve always know it to be Petra).
But that’s not an empirical reason why one is better? You are simply stating that your preference makes the movie more real for you. Whatever works.Udvarnoky said:
Udvarnoky said:
Because film making has moved on… and not all for the best I would concede. But arguing the toss of real location footage versus CGI enhanced back lot shooting seems somewhat redundant (as I'm not sure this is the thread).
So I’ve already stated that there should be a modicum of location shooting… but it really isn’t a big thing for me. I believed Indy was in Nepal, Singapore, Austria and somewhere near the Amazon, just as much as I believed he was in India and Egypt. I agree that the Sri Lankan footage in TOD is some of the best location footage to date, but it doesn’t make the movie any better than Raiders or TLC (IMHO). What can I say?Udvarnoky said:
Cole
New member
To me, this is as nitpicky as complaining about the scene near the end of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' with Marion and Indy tied to a pole looking like a studio.
If you want to see it as a studio.........you can. If you want to get lost in the movie........then you can do that too.
Similarly, you can see it as green screen, or you can get lost in the movie.
If you want to see it as a studio.........you can. If you want to get lost in the movie........then you can do that too.
Similarly, you can see it as green screen, or you can get lost in the movie.
AlivePoet said:I thought you capped off at 658 back in the day for reasons as demonstrated most lucidly above?
I discovered that my post count did not remain at 658, which sort of takes the **** out of it. Besides, in the realm of internet message board tantrums, six months is effectively forever.
Darth Vile said:
It all still comes down to me disagreeing that visual effects, either by their overuse or underuse, is the source of the problem I'm describing. The fact that we're still on that topic shows that we're off point. The size of the city registering for the audience does not neatly translate to more or longer wide shots of the city in my mind. I had no idea until now that it did for you.
I really don't know what was "pedantic" about my response, but it was early morning my time just before work when I posted that (rather than afternoon), so trust me, we're both lucky I managed a subject and a predicate.
Darth Vile said:
I disagree that there is some cut and paste solution that involves splicing in some shots in key places. We, however, seem to agree on the bottom line.
Darth Vile said:
As I've stated before, I go by how something feels, whereas you've got to convert everything to a math equation with a long hand proof alongside - see how far that gets you when talking to people about movies. The arrival at the Grail temple exterior simply felt appropriate to me in terms of majesty, and I'm offering a possible rationale of why this was so for me, and why by contrast the discovery of Akator was not. I don't think the fact that a temple is a comparatively much smaller and less significant find than an entire city (which the film is built around) entirely irrelevant, but don't let reason stop you from getting defensive over nothing.
Darth Vile said:
Wrong. All I did was use the movie's only full shot of the valley that Akator resides in to make a point about the scope of Indy's find in the movie versus how much the notion is exploited. We can safely skip over everything else you wrote in that paragraph.
Darth Vile said:
There you go with your empirical reasons. I'm waiting for you pull out a ruler and confirm that, yes, the film reels to Indy4 are exactly the 35 millimeters that the original trilogy are, therefore any argument that visits differences between any Indiana Jones movie is null and void.
Darth Vile said:
Yeah, no kidding. Why does that freak you out again?
Darth Vile said:
Weird. Wouldn't my feelings about how well Akator was sold for me as a real place have everything to do with the film's finale, the subject of the thread?
Darth Vile said:
So, to paraphrase what you just wrote, the belief that Temple has the best location footage of the Indy movies doesn't make it better than Raiders of the Lost Ark and Last Crusade. That's the conclusion you've reached after all of this. I just need to let this sink in for a minute.
Darth Vile
New member
Udvarnoky said:
It?s a visual medium after all, so yes? for me a better establishing shot (for the audience to fully register the scope) would necessitate showing the city in some extended detail, rather than reaction shots of the actors.
Udvarnoky said:
I simply find that when positioning something as ?bad filmmaking?, especially when others have a contrary view, one needs a modicum of empirical evidence to benchmark the proposition. After all, after circa 6 months? we seemed to have moved on from screenplay and dialogue to KOTCS establishing shots. You shouldn't automatically translate a contrary view to being "defensive".
Udvarnoky said:
Seemed like you were just leveling an unsubstantiated claim at the movie. If not, I retract it.
If you want to influence a view, a critique should be based on more than ?how something feels?. Otherwise it runs the risk of turning into unsubstantiated hokum e.g. ?KOTCS is great because it?s Indy?.Udvarnoky said:
Because you seem to readily make the assumption that your view = the correct view? that because you don?t like the movie it means that it?s a bad filmmaking. After all this time, I'm still not convinced by your arguments.Udvarnoky said:
I think the reason why the finale doesn?t quite live up to the other three is for reasons other than ?how well Akator was sold to me?. As you said in a previous post, perhaps you are influenced more than you think by your cynicism???Udvarnoky said:
Nope ? Just suggesting that perhaps you place too much emphasis on the requirement for location footage... and that perhaps the issue is yours and not the movies???Udvarnoky said:
It doesn't hold up in a lot of areas (from lighting to acting to script to direction to Williams lackluster musical score).
I was completely disappointed by KOTCS.
Here's a Indiana Jones retrospective.
KOTCS continued the Indiana Jones tradition of a film in the Indy series to be nominated or win an Academy Award as did each of the first three films Raiders/Temple of Doom/Last Crusade....
Or wait that's right, KOTCS wasn't nominated and didn't win a Oscar.
It won a Razzie for Worst Prequel,Remake, Rip-off or Sequel Award.
What a nose dive this franchise took.
Some people claim KOTCS is like the originals - No, the originals are a different type of film.
Lucas has said the original three were a tribute to the 1930's Republic serials and they decided to change the approach and make KOTCS a tribute to the 1950's B movie.
Quite a difference and Indy doesn't work as a 1950's B movie.
I was completely disappointed by KOTCS.
Here's a Indiana Jones retrospective.
KOTCS continued the Indiana Jones tradition of a film in the Indy series to be nominated or win an Academy Award as did each of the first three films Raiders/Temple of Doom/Last Crusade....
Or wait that's right, KOTCS wasn't nominated and didn't win a Oscar.
It won a Razzie for Worst Prequel,Remake, Rip-off or Sequel Award.
What a nose dive this franchise took.
Some people claim KOTCS is like the originals - No, the originals are a different type of film.
Lucas has said the original three were a tribute to the 1930's Republic serials and they decided to change the approach and make KOTCS a tribute to the 1950's B movie.
Quite a difference and Indy doesn't work as a 1950's B movie.
Forbidden Eye
Well-known member
FILMKRUSC said:
I think brining the Oscars in bringing into the discussion doesn't work as the Oscars have proven multiple times to be irrelevant. They don't award the true crowd pleasers or the most influential films. TDK being omitted from the Best Picture category really spoke for itself(which is why the Academy changed their rules, proving they don't even take themselves that seriously).
Lucas has always been hated by the Hollywood elitists, since the original Star Wars. He even had to drop out of the Director's Guild all because he wanted to put all the credits at the end of the film.
In this case at least, the population's reaction really matters the most.
What a stupid reason to be disappointed. It wasn't nominated for an oscar, but it won a national movie award for best adventure movie, a grammy for the adventures of Mutt, Even a Saturn award for best special effects.FILMKRUSC said:
The "Razzies" were a joke, look on Theraider.net.
And you think the originals are different because they were loosely based on serial from different time periods. If your disappointed by KotCS I don't know what to tell you.