Does anyone pretend KOTCS didn't happen?

Raiders90

Well-known member
Indy seems so out of character in the movie. What he lacks is I guess the ''swagger'' or smarmy-ness or the edge that he had in the Original trilogy and even in the Mystery of the Blues book-ends. It sometimes seems like a different character, like Koepp didn't know how Indy should/would talk.
And Harrison's characterization of Indy seems almost over the top, like a homage to the way the character is supposed to act, or like Jack Ryan in an Indiana Jones costume; I can't quite explain it.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Raiders112390 said:
Indy seems so out of character in the movie. What he lacks is I guess the ''swagger'' or smarmy-ness or the edge that he had in the Original trilogy and even in the Mystery of the Blues book-ends. It sometimes seems like a different character, like Koepp didn't know how Indy should/would talk.
And Harrison's characterization of Indy seems almost over the top, like a homage to the way the character is supposed to act, or like Jack Ryan in an Indiana Jones costume; I can't quite explain it.

To me he is exactly the same character, though 19 years older than he appeared in TLC. One of the main elements in KOTCS is the passing of time, with Indy's loneliness, his slowing down and and gaining responsibilities. Right from the start it's shown that he's been collecting pot sherds from a dig, and not been going after the great artifacts that characterized his previous outings. KOTCS was the vehicle to bring him back into the world of wild adventure, but it comes with a price: the "swagger" is hampered by his hip; the "smarmy-ness" is muted by the extra years.

The idea is that he's growing into the character of the father figure, though by the end it's clear that he isn't quite ready for the carpet slippers.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
agull said:
@raiders
Agree! Indy is not the same great hero in "Skull" - and this makes me very sad.

How is he not? He's Indy as if he naturally aged to his late 50s. If you think Indy is out of character in KOTCS, then he must be out of character in TOD and LC as well.
 

agull

Guest
No, he is still the same in Temple and Crusade. But he is different in Skull. He is more like his father in "Skull". He is no hero, he is not witty - and he is not vulnerable enough in Skull.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Dr.Jonesy said:
How is he not? He's Indy as if he naturally aged to his late 50s. If you think Indy is out of character in KOTCS, then he must be out of character in TOD and LC as well.

I'm with you Dr.Jonesy. Indy's in character, but the events he's involved in are larger than before. He's still the same, still surviving things that most men couldn't.

agull said:
No, he is still the same in Temple and Crusade. But he is different in Skull. He is more like his father in "Skull".

That's not out of character, but a character development consistent with age.

agull said:
He is no hero, he is not witty - and he is not vulnerable enough in Skull.

He was witty, but the mood of this film was also intentionally different. He's always been invulnerable to death and serious injury, otherwise it would have been a short series. The cliffhangers are larger and potentially more lethal than before, and that's the issue I have with KOTCS, not Indy's character. He's always needed a high level of luck in the past, even in ROTLA, but with each film that requirement rises.

The charge that he is unheroic has a point, in that in KOTCS his mission is dictated by the skull. He lacks the free will we normally associate with heroes. Yet, I see him as an anti-hero anyway, as opposed to a traditional hero. Nevertheless he is still daring and reckless.
 
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Matt deMille

New member
This is the real problem with KOTCS

A lot of people hated KOTCS (I didn't -- I liked it). It's easy to blame the alien concept, but really, this may have been the real problem -- Indy isn't quite Indy. Sort of like the problem with the Star Wars prequels -- the characters are kinda flat. It seems Lucas and Koepp were trying to "add character" in every way but the right one -- Indy. They gave him a son, a wife, an old pal, an old traitor, all things Indy can interact with, yet semeed to take Indy himself for granted. Perhaps people would have liked KOTCS better if there were less supporting characters and a bit more devotion to Indy himself. Or maybe this problem can be looked at a different way, in that, maybe Indy's character was indeed there, but just didn't have the screen time to shine, sharing the stage with four others. You notice how in ROTLA it was just him and one other at some point, and this is the movie that made us care (if we didn't, there wouldn't have been a second film). Each film added one additional supporting character, and the movie became less about Indy's heroics and more about his relationships. KOTCS is simply where this is the biggest problem because it has the most characters. So maybe it's not Indy directly, but everyone around him. Sometimes less is more.
 

agull

Guest
Imagine the "Skull"-Indy at the beginning of "Temple":

"No, Shorty! You can't drive the car. You are not old enough! That's intolerable! You could hurt somebody!!!"
 

Montana Smith

Active member
agull said:
Imagine the "Skull"-Indy at the beginning of "Temple":

"No, Shorty! You can't drive the car. You are not old enough! That's intolerable! You could hurt somebody!!!"

He was 22 years younger in TOD. In KOTCS he's getting responsibility forced on him. That's the challenge he faces. It's the story of an ageing protagonist. The last scene confirms that he believes he's not ready to pass on the fedora to his son.

Becoming his father is obviously a comic turn on TLC.
 

agull

Guest
Or imagine the Skull-Indy in the Spike-Chamber

"Well, Shorty... this trap was build... blabla.... most of these Spike were made out of... blabla.... it's a very difficult trap, but I guess that... blabla *lame explantation of this trap*..."


Like the "Quicksand"-Scene in "Skull"...
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
agull said:
Imagine the "Skull"-Indy at the beginning of "Temple":

"No, Shorty! You can't drive the car. You are not old enough! That's intolerable! You could hurt somebody!!!"

Imagine Indy from "Crusade" in "Raiders" doing a Scottish man impression to a Nazi soldier.

"Do ya intend to leave me standin' all day out in the desert sun! I will dry up and fry! Achoo! Ugh, all this dust is makin' a me sniffle!"
 

agull

Guest
It makes no sense in the desert and of course it was not out of character.

I guess the "Skull"-Indy would work together with Nazis in "Raiders". :)
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
agull said:
It makes no sense in the desert and of course it was not out of character.

And impersonating a Scotsman in Austria makes sense? It seems like you're picking and choosing in the benefit of the first three films.

How was it not out of character by your standards? He was deliberately being a goofball. Or imagine Indy from "Crusade" bickering with Sallah or Marcus like he did with Henry.

Of course it would make no sense. Much like your example of an aged Indy in a prime aged Indy adventure. It would make no sense to mix those up because the character has evolved by KOTCS whilst still remaining the same.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
agull said:
Or imagine the Skull-Indy in the Spike-Chamber

"Well, Shorty... this trap was build... blabla.... most of these Spike were made out of... blabla.... it's a very difficult trap, but I guess that... blabla *lame explantation of this trap*..."


Like the "Quicksand"-Scene in "Skull"...

If the Indy of 1935 had been identical to the Indy of 1957, regardless of his personal circumstances, then that would be an unbelievable character.

In KOTCS he begins with the same reckless character we've seen before. We later see the responsibilities building up: Marion returns; Mutt is revealed as his son. On top of that he's already had the "skull" speak to him (think also of the Black Sleep of Kali in TOD).

KOTCS has a strong theme of age and change. He's still recognizably the same person. The end confirms that, despite everything, he's unwilling to give up adventuring.
 

agull

Guest
In "Raiders" Indy pretends to be an arab and to be an german soldier. So it's not out of character to pretend a scottish Lord in "Crusade". That's Indy!

But saying "Intolerable!" and beeing somekind of babbitt - it out of character.


Imagine the Boulder-Scene in "Raiders" with the Skull-Indy:

"That's intolereable!!!!"
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
agull said:
In "Raiders" Indy pretends to be an arab and to be an german soldier. So it's not out of character to pretend a scottish Lord in "Crusade". That's Indy!

But saying "Intolerable!" and beeing somekind of babbitt - it out of character.


Imagine the Boulder-Scene in "Raiders" with the Skull-Indy:

"That's intolereable!!!!"

You remind me of this guy Dennis Bruhn for some reason...

Anyway, Indy never faked an Arab accent. He wore a robe...And over his work pants and shoes, which was a dead giveaway that maybe this guy isn't an Arab...

You make it seem like Indy said "Intolerable" in every scene in KOTCS. That'd be like me saying:

"Imagine "Crusade" Indy saying "It belongs in a museum!" when Belloq takes the Idol or when the he is holding the bazooka to the Germans in "Raiders"."
 

agull

Guest
Well, that's my opinion. I think he is out of character. I gave you some examples. and I'm not the only one who think he is not "Indy" anymore. Here is a thread with the title "Does anybody feels sad for Indy".


What about my spike-chamber-example?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Dr.Jonesy said:
You remind me of this guy Dennis Bruhn for some reason...

Me, too, and he was even before my time!

agull said:
Well, that's my opinion. I think he is out of character. I gave you some examples. and I'm not the only one who think he is not "Indy" anymore. Here is a thread with the title "Does anybody feels sad for Indy".

We were meant to feel sad for Indy. That was the point. He's not "out of character" but an older version of the character we last saw in 1938. There's no point imagining older Indy in the younger Indy scenes. He was 19-22 years younger then, and he didn't have a dodgy hip.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
agull said:
Well, that's my opinion. I think he is out of character. I gave you some examples. and I'm not the only one who think he is not "Indy" anymore. Here is a thread with the title "Does anybody feels sad for Indy".


What about my spike-chamber-example?

So...you haven't adressed any of my examples but you expect me to adress all yours?

I would agree that the "Quicksand Scene" comments he made were silly, but it was akin to the idea of him slightly becoming his father at times. For example;

-Henry reciting Charlemagne after taking down the plane.
-"I find that if I just sit down and sit back...the solution will present itself!"
-Same goes for the "Intolerable" comment he made. That was a deliberate line to show how he's his father, at this age now in some ways.

It would seem that the filmmakers wanted Indy to still be himself whilst being an aged archaeologist and channelling his father, now.
 
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