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Old 12-19-2013, 03:59 AM   #1
RKORadio
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Q about Marcus Brody

Does anyone know why they changed Brody's character so much from ROTLA to TLC?
Does anyone know what Denholm Elliott thought about Brody being turned from a serious curator into a "bumbling moron" to put it politely?
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:04 AM   #2
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To increase the comic element of LC, not intentionally but inevitably at the expense of his Raiders character. To me it seemed like he had dementia coming on quite strongly.

The straight backed, suave, mentoring figure we saw in Raiders became a stooped, bumbling, confused and child like man. There were some scenes that this lent to OK, such as when he was in Iskendurun, futilely asking anyone if they could speak English or Ancient Greek and making a few funny W C Fields-like quips.

But otherwise, he was written as if he had suffered serious decline in cognitive health between 1936 and 1938.

As for DE talking about this anywhere I haven't seen anything. It would be interesting if he had discussed this and given his slant.
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Old 12-20-2013, 07:17 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiana
To increase the comic element of LC, not intentionally but inevitably at the expense of his Raiders character. To me it seemed like he had dementia coming on quite strongly.

The straight backed, suave, mentoring figure we saw in Raiders became a stooped, bumbling, confused and child like man. There were some scenes that this lent to OK, such as when he was in Iskendurun, futilely asking anyone if they could speak English or Ancient Greek and making a few funny W C Fields-like quips.

But otherwise, he was written as if he had suffered serious decline in cognitive health between 1936 and 1938.

As for DE talking about this anywhere I haven't seen anything. It would be interesting if he had discussed this and given his slant.
From the moment he gets to Iskendurun he completely changes character to be more comedic. In Raiders he seems to have an air of gravitas and authority about him, but then some may say that TLC saw him as a fish out of water ans he couldn't handle it. I think he was in there for some un-needed light comedy relief. His actions in the tank I find not very funny at all once he's been hit on the head.

However, I went to see TLC in the cinema a couple of weeks ago and the scene where Indy states Marcus would blend in and disappear, cutting to him then bumbling around asking if anyone speaks English got huge belly laughs from the audience. So I guess if thats the reaction it gets then I'm sure the beards would think they did their job.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:28 PM   #4
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I think one issue is that Marcus got so little exposure in Raiders that what we saw of him was taken as typical and important. There was no sign of any bumbling, confused character who would be fish out of water in a trying situation, but then again I suppose he isn't put in any trying situation.

Still, there is a glaring difference between his Raiders and LC characters.

Remember when Indy tells him, "Belloq. Wanna hear about it?" and Marcus replies, "Not at all. I'm sure the..." I know this off-handedness could be taken several ways, but I always took it as "I'm not so concerned with the smaller details" and the dismissiveness I saw as someone who prioritises issues as they have to be. He had important men waiting to speak to Indy.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:50 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiana
I think one issue is that Marcus got so little exposure in Raiders that what we saw of him was taken as typical and important. There was no sign of any bumbling, confused character who would be fish out of water in a trying situation, but then again I suppose he isn't put in any trying situation.

Still, there is a glaring difference between his Raiders and LC characters.

Remember when Indy tells him, "Belloq. Wanna hear about it?" and Marcus replies, "Not at all. I'm sure the..." I know this off-handedness could be taken several ways, but I always took it as "I'm not so concerned with the smaller details" and the dismissiveness I saw as someone who prioritises issues as they have to be. He had important men waiting to speak to Indy.

I completely agree. For me it wasn't a stretch to see a bumblimg Brody in LC, as the character never fully develops in Raiders. Fish outta water is all. I understand the difference, but I was never insulted by it.

Indiana's break of stoic courage when he wants Mutt to call the snake a rope is far more character breaking (and cringeworthy) than Brody in Raiders to Brody in Last Crusade.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:44 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKORadio
Does anyone know why they changed Brody's character so much from ROTLA to TLC?
Does anyone know what Denholm Elliott thought about Brody being turned from a serious curator into a "bumbling moron" to put it politely?

Well in one of the dvd docs Spielberg or Denholm (cant remember which right now) said that Marcus was sort of a father figure in Raiders and that his role, in that way, had been superceded by Sean Connery in Last Crusade... so they branched the character out and he became sort of a figure of fun.

So I guess he was saying, couldn't have 2 daddy types ...I suppose.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:27 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Dr. Gonzo
So I guess he was saying, couldn't have 2 daddy types ...I suppose.


Why not? Mutt did/does...

Oh SNAP!
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Old 12-21-2013, 04:18 AM   #8
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Its unlikely Brody would have been in Indy 4. Even if Elliott had lived, wouldn't he have been 85 or 86 when they were doing Indy 4?
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Old 12-21-2013, 05:22 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKORadio
Its unlikely Brody would have been in Indy 4. Even if Elliott had lived, wouldn't he have been 85 or 86 when they were doing Indy 4?

What's this in reference to? Did someone suggest anything to this effect? Just wonderin'.
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Old 12-21-2013, 09:47 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKORadio
Its unlikely Brody would have been in Indy 4. Even if Elliott had lived, wouldn't he have been 85 or 86 when they were doing Indy 4?

Sounds like ageism to me.
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Old 12-21-2013, 09:54 AM   #11
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While there are actors still working in their mid-eighties, I wonder if it would have been practical for an action-adventure film. They could have refused insurance on him if the script had called for anything that would stretch the physical capabilities of your average 85-86 year old - the age Elliott would have been had he been alive at the time of the production of Indy 4.
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Old 12-21-2013, 10:03 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKORadio
While there are actors still working in their mid-eighties, I wonder if it would have been practical for an action-adventure film. They could have refused insurance on him if the script had called for anything that would stretch the physical capabilities of your average 85-86 year old - the age Elliott would have been had he been alive at the time of the production of Indy 4.

He could have just been in the college scenes like in Raiders. People shouldn't be in action films if they are older? Sound like ageism to me. By the way, I'm older than you and I am offended by your comments so that make you an ageist if we are going by your logic in the TOD racist thread I am offended and older than you so you must be an ageist.

Last edited by Henry W Jones : 12-21-2013 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 12-21-2013, 10:25 AM   #13
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Henry are you always the female dog to people that you perceive as having upset you. I do not understand you turning up to wreck my thread.
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Old 12-21-2013, 10:33 AM   #14
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Man, Brody was awesome in LC. His interactions with Henry Sr. were top-notch. Marcus is my favorite of all the characters, and I would have LOVED to had seen him in Kingdom if the actor were still alive.
He may have been comic fodder in LC, but any movie with more Marcus is a-okay in my book.

PS: You stole my avatar!
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Old 12-21-2013, 02:29 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by RKORadio
Henry are you always the female dog to people that you perceive as having upset you. I do not understand you turning up to wreck my thread.

No, I just show up and confront your logic. Calling me a bi*ch is childish. Can you defend your ageism? You don't upset me either. I never called you a b*tch so who is really upset. I just want to understand your logic. I don't know how I wrecked your thread. I wasn't being the ageist. You jump on a high horse constantly but when it is thrown back in your face you can't handle it.
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:24 PM   #16
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Ah, the ol' Marcus debate. Older than these forums, I'll bet.
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Old 12-21-2013, 07:14 PM   #17
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Had DE still been alive, I think his presence in CS would have been OK or better. He certainly could not have hurt CS as it is.
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Old 12-21-2013, 11:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiana
Had DE still been alive, I think his presence in CS would have been OK or better. He certainly could not have hurt CS as it is.

Maybe he went out of his way to die before he could've been suckered into starring in it. He avoided any possible awkward situations by simply kicking the bucket.

Very unprofessional, if you ask me.
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Old 12-21-2013, 11:38 PM   #19
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Maybe he went out of his way to die before he could've been suckered into starring in it. He avoided any possible awkward situations by simply kicking the bucket.

Very unprofessional, if you ask me.

Such dark humour, Mr Katanga! He might have improved poor ol' CS. Jim Broadbent didn't do a bad job standing in for DE's role, but he was just filling the 'Marcus' type role, even though Marcus is well acknowledged in several scenes.

Marcus shuffling around the College but showing his erudite self, as a Professor that finds retirement too hard to do, still mentoring Indy in some ways, cautioning and encouraging, might have gone a long way to helping CS.

This useless musing of retrospective maybes won't change anything, but it is interesting.
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Old 12-25-2013, 09:33 AM   #20
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I've said before and I'll say it again - Marcus has only a small role at the beginning of Raiders. Ignoring the ending, he's in it for three short scenes. Apart from him giving Indy some sage advice and introducing him to the Army Intelligence men, he doesn't have much of a role in the plot. I think Marcus' traits as a wise mentor to Indy are overstated, exaggerated and embellished by the critics of his behavior in LC.

Keep in mind also that for his first few scenes in LC, he behaves no differently than he did in Raiders. It's only once he gets to Iskenderun that he starts behaving differently than what viewers had seen up then. Even in Venice, he doesn't say or do anything that makes him seem incompetent or inexperienced.

Why then difference in behavior between Venice and Iskenderun? I think it's the absence of Indy. Marcus is an intelligent but inexperienced man (note his line "A few years ago I would've gone after it myself" is not evidence he's had field experience). At Indy's side in Venice, he can still function much as he does within the confines of academe, confident, self-assured, even a little impatient and snarky, but it's once he is forced to go it alone in Iskenderun without his old friend's son, that he shows signs of insecurity and confusion, not due to stupidity, but due to intimidation - notice he regains some of his old self once he meets up with Sallah. Now with a friend, a taste of the familiar, he is able to relax and carry himself normally, even becoming a little bit too sure of himself and let the Nazi agent sweet talk him.

Then when trouble arises, he is back to being confused and afraid, and while in Donovan's custody he is alone and afraid, apart from some defiance ("I'd rather spit it in your face.").

This just leaves Indy's jab about him getting lost in his own museum. I'm sure this happened, but Marcus sometimes seems a little "floaty" (in the sense that his self-confidence means he lets stuff roll off of him) so when it did happen I'm sure he didn't notice or care that it had. All this points to Marcus being a man who functions best in surroundings and situations that are familiar to him, to the point of walking between the raindrops and being a little inattentive but otherwise confident and self-assured, and who is easily intimidated by unfamiliar ones if he doesn't have a friend with him.

In other words, your average stereotypical middle-aged academic type.
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