Volume Two, The War Years

Matinee Idyll

New member
This discussion on sexual power and motivation in 'Paris, 1916' has been one of the best I've ever seen on The Raven - I'm sorry I missed it! Thanks tupogirl, TalonCard and Stoo!

The way I see it, Indy (as most all men are) is completely ruled by his c?ck in that episode. He is being unfaithful to his idealised, pure love for Vicky, he even acknowledges this in the episode - yet he holds Mata Hari to a tremendous double standard - he wants to control her, stop her seeing or even looking at other men, create something between the two of them that isn't even there (he's just 'a little boy masquerading as a man'). Remarkable self-delusion at work.

She desires his youth, and he yearns for sex and her experience. That's all their relationship is based on, I think the spy subplot is just a red herring in what is a rather interesting exploration of the way men view (madonna/whore duality), exploit and try to control women. That episode could only be written by a woman, and Carrie did an amazing job.

One of my favourite moments in the entire series is when Indy kisses Mata for the first time - he, in all his deluded romanticism is right into it while her eyes just stare blankly into the distance as the camera pushes in.

Remarkable shot.
 

tupogirl

New member
Matinee Idyll said:
This discussion on sexual power and motivation in 'Paris, 1916' has been one of the best I've ever seen on The Raven - I'm sorry I missed it! Thanks tupogirl, TalonCard and Stoo!

The way I see it, Indy (as most all men are) is completely ruled by his c?ck in that episode. He is being unfaithful to his idealised, pure love for Vicky, he even acknowledges this in the episode - yet he holds Mata Hari to a tremendous double standard - he wants to control her, stop her seeing or even looking at other men, create something between the two of them that isn't even there (he's just 'a little boy masquerading as a man'). Remarkable self-delusion at work.

She desires his youth, and he yearns for sex and her experience. That's all their relationship is based on, I think the spy subplot is just a red herring in what is a rather interesting exploration of the way men view (madonna/whore duality), exploit and try to control women. That episode could only be written by a woman, and Carrie did an amazing job.

One of my favourite moments in the entire series is when Indy kisses Mata for the first time - he, in all his deluded romanticism is right into it while her eyes just stare blankly into the distance as the camera pushes in.

Remarkable shot.

Thanks!

I've watched it a few times over the past few weeks and knowing how the whole episode goes, it is SO unsettling to see how she leans in towards him and the way she looks at him. He thinks with the little brain, she puts her manipulation skills to good use. Strangely enough, she reminds me of my sister (who once wanted to be a belly dancing missionary). She has the personality that men can't resist and women hate. Except she doesn't realize how attractive she is and doesn't use it to her advantage. Though there are certain family members she has always had wrapped around her fingers!

They dislike dealing with any negative feelings too and can act destructively because of that. My sister is much more balanced than Mata Hari though!
 

Adamwankenobi

New member
I found this exchange in the episode soooo true and haunting:

Remy: Who is she? What is she like?
Indy: She's incredible.
Remy: They all are, what else?
Indy: Incredible is enough, for the moment.
Genevieve: Too bad that moment doesn't last.
 

tupogirl

New member
Adamwankenobi said:
I found this exchange in the episode soooo true and haunting:

Remy: Who is she? What is she like?
Indy: She's incredible.
Remy: They all are, what else?
Indy: Incredible is enough, for the moment.
Genevieve: Too bad that moment doesn't last.


It just gets more depressing the more we talk about it...
 

Matinee Idyll

New member
Destructive is exactly the word to describe Mata Hari tg, I've known several people like that - it's scary, because they often drag alot of other people down with them.
 

TalonCard

Member
Matinee Idyll said:
She desires his youth, and he yearns for sex and her experience. That's all their relationship is based on, I think the spy subplot is just a red herring in what is a rather interesting exploration of the way men view (madonna/whore duality), exploit and try to control women. That episode could only be written by a woman, and Carrie did an amazing job.

The novel version of this episode has a subplot with a further motivation for Mata Hari: she hopes that Indy is well connected enough to get her a pass so she can visit her other lover. I'm not sure if this was cut from the episode for time, or if the author added it in order to draw more real-life history into the story. I suspect the latter.

TC
 

Junior Jones

New member
Sorry to interrupt the ongoing Mata Hari discussion...

I rewatched Adventures in the Secret Service this weekend and was reminded again how much I miss the Old Indy bookends. I know there are already threads about Old Indy, but these two episodes exemplify the two biggest aspects lost along with the old man.

At the end of "Austria, 1917" Old Indy explains how the Kaiser discovered Emperor Karl's plans for a separate peace and "called him on the carpet" and gave him a "real dressing down". In the re-edit Colonel Dupuis has those same lines to explain why the war isn't over. However, Germany didn't really make that discovery until early 1918, and the info came from France (according to the documentaries on the DVD). So what's lost here is historical accuracy, which is a shame since both these episodes are based not just on historical people, but historical events.

And what's lost with the bookends for "Petrograd, 1917" is the coolness factor. Indy corrected the museum curator and backed up his story by pointing to a figure in a 75-year-old photograph and saying "That's me." (It gives me the same chill I got at the end of Curse of the Jackal when Old Indy points to the Jackal head in the museum case.)

So anyway, sorry for the interruption. Isn't that Mata Hari episode great?
 

SterankoII

New member
Some of the bookends were good like the one mentioned above and for the Africa ones where Indy is an emergency room talking to some redneck. Others were kind of dumb to me.

The Mata Hari episode was directed by Nicholas Roeg who also directed two great movies. Walkabout and Don't Look Now. The latter has probably the most intense sex scene between Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie(playing husband and wife). It's a very scary movie. Venice never looked so frightening on film.
 

tupogirl

New member
Junior Jones, Petrograd 1917 was my all time favorite book ends. And it's one of my favorite episodes. I've become slightly obsessed with Russia, the Revolution, the Romanovs...all that hope, just dashed. I get chills just thinking of the photograph they had in that scene.
 

doesitmatter

New member
I'm watching it right now and I'm enjoying it. Every series needs lighter episodes and these two have at least kept me interested the whole way (which I can't say for MANY episodes).
 

tupogirl

New member
Matinee Idyll said:
Destructive is exactly the word to describe Mata Hari tg, I've known several people like that - it's scary, because they often drag alot of other people down with them.

They leave a trail of disaster in their wake.

In rewatching the episode too, she doesn't seem to care that people think she's a spy and just throws it off nonchalantly. I know if someone accused me of that, I would take it and the ramifications VERY serious.
 

tupogirl

New member
Adamwankenobi said:

LOL! If Indy went to Cannes, I think he'd be sneaking off somewhere at some point, falling asleep at the wrong time, insulting/seducing women, and eating something weird.
 
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