Shroud of Turin

Barty

New member
San Holo said:
Actually, the strips of linen were used to bind the large,single piece around the body.

Not it wasn't. The strips were about a foot wide and each piece was tightly wrapped around the body. So that instead of a single piece that covered the body, the individual pieces worked together to make a tight cocoon like wrapping.
 
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San Holo

Active member
Barty said:
Not it wasn't. The strips were about a foot wide and each piece was tightly wrapped around the body. So that instead of a single piece that covered the body, the individual pieces worked together to make a tight cocoon like wrapping.
I don't know where you are getting 'yer info, bud, but you have it all wrong. Maybe you were thinking about a mummy;) , because Jewish shrouds going all the way back to the time of Jesus, have been a single piece of linen, or whatever type of fabric was available.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
San Holo said:
I don't know where you are getting 'yer info, bud, but you have it all wrong. Maybe you were thinking about a mummy;) , because Jewish shrouds going all the way back to the time of Jesus, have been a single piece of linen, or whatever type of fabric was available.

Interestingly enough, the Jewish learned their embalming techniques from the Egyptians. (more on the screenplay later)
 

ReggieSnake

New member
Several years ago I read a very interesting book on the shroud. There was a lot of very thought provoking evidence toward the shroud being the actual burial cloth of Jesus, I'll have to look that volume back up.

In the meantime, here is some information I found regarding the translation of "cloths" from http://www.shroud.com/faq.htm:
Q: In the Bible (John 19:38-42), it says that Jesus was wrapped in linen cloths (plural). There was also another cloth that was wrapped around his head. The Shroud is only one piece of cloth. I was wondering if there was any explanation.
I asked Rev. Albert "Kim" Dreisbach, a biblical scholar, theologian and Shroud historian to draft the response to this question. Here is his reply:
A: The Shroud and Other "Cloths" Used in Jesus' Burial

Students new to the study to the Shroud are sometimes confused by apparent inconsistencies in the description of Jesus' burial cloth or cloths. In truth, the Bible - when read in Greek - uses a variety of terms to describe them.

The Synoptic Gospels use the word sindon in the singular to designate the Shroud (Matt. 27:59; Mk. 15:46 (twice); Lk. 23:53). Sindon appears only six times in all of the New Testament. In an anecdote unique to Mark, it is used twice in 14: 51-52 to describe the linen cloth left by an unnamed young man when he fled naked from the Garden of Gethsemane.

In Jn. 19:40, the Fourth Gospeller uses the word othonia [Gk.] (plural) to describe the linen cloths used in the Burial. Othonia, a word of uncertain meaning, but probably best translated as a generic plural for grave clothes. The same word is used by Luke or his scribe in Lk.24:12 what had previously been described as the sindon in Lk. 23:53. Note: vs. l2 (But Peter rose and ran to the tomb, stooping and looking in, he saw the linen cloths (plural) by themselves; and he went home wondering what happened.) does not appear in the most ancient manuscripts, but is added by later ancient authorities.

Next we discover (keirias) [Gk.] translated by the RSV as bandages in Jn. 11:44's description of the raising of Lazarus. In actuality, linen strips used to bind the wrists and ankles and probably also used on the outside at the neck, waist and ankles to secure the Shroud to the body.

Finally we come to the word sudarion [Gk.] which is found in the canonical texts solely in John (11:44. 20:7) and Luke (l9:20; Acts l9:12). It is translated by the RSV as "the napkin which had been on his head" (Jn. 20:7) and earlier in 11:44 as the cloth with which Lazarus' face was wrapped. Scholars like the late Dr. John A.T Robinson ( "The Shroud of Turin and the Grave Cloths of the Gospels") and J.N. Sanders regard it as a chin band going around the face/head for the purpose of keeping the corpse's jaws closed. Certainly this appears to be the intent of the artist who drew the manuscript illustration for the Hungarian Pray mss, Fol. 27v, Budapest of 1192-95 which clearly illustrates that the Shroud's full length image(s) were known in the 12th century. (See Ian Wilson, 1986, The Mysterious Shroud, Garden City, NY; Doubleday & Company, p.115. See also Bercovits, I. 1969, Dublin: Irish University Press. Illuminated Manuscripts in Hungary, pl. III.) .
 

Niteshade007

New member
Kim is a funny nickname for a man named Albert. Why not Al? Or Bert?

I actually agree with WillKill4Food on this one. I don't think that the shroud would make a particularly fascinating Indy story because, quite frankly, it isn't interesting enough. Unless they gave it some sort of mythical power, as they did with the grail in Last Crusade, but we've already seen something like that, so why do it all?
 

ReggieSnake

New member
Niteshade007 said:
Kim is a funny nickname for a man named Albert. Why not Al? Or Bert?

I actually agree with WillKill4Food on this one. I don't think that the shroud would make a particularly fascinating Indy story because, quite frankly, it isn't interesting enough. Unless they gave it some sort of mythical power, as they did with the grail in Last Crusade, but we've already seen something like that, so why do it all?
I agree, on both points.;) The shroud is a very interesting and important item of historical and religious significance, but it wouldn't make a good Macguffin.
 

otto rahn

New member
ReggieSnake said:
I agree, on both points.;) The shroud is a very interesting and important item of historical and religious significance, but it wouldn't make a good Macguffin.
As it stand perhaps not, but I don't think that it would take too much effort to turn it INTO a maguffin. Imbue it with some sort of occult power or simply have people who THINK that it has some sort of significence and it works as a maguffin; especially if you set the story in Indie's day,(or earlier) when people were more convinced of the shroud's authenticity.
 

Yure

Well-known member
AFAIK, the Sacred Sindone (that's how we call here in Italy the Shroud of Turin), is nothing more than a stunning but artificial artifact.

I had the opportunity to view it some years ago (it is occasionally put on display for no more than a couple of months), and as for many old artifacts it has an invaluable fashion and eerie aura, the same you can get from other relics whose authenticity is proven false (like St. James head, on permament display in Amiens), since it makes you wonder how many centuries that artifact has influenced people, how many fought for it.

Apart from the carbon isotope analisys, the Shroud of Turin (as well as other shrouds) has been analysed in almost every way possible, and the majority of the results find the shroud age compatible with the time it's referred to in the chronicles, the 14th century. A very strong point, imho, is that right after the Middle Ages, and later in specific times (like the Counter Reform), there's been a high quantity of relics fabricated for both political (to raise awareness and strenghten the position of the Christian Church), and economic reasons, since relics were fabricated and sold by the Christian Church together with an "authenticity" certificate. I happen to own (I have some high priests as ancestors) many of these "emission certificates" (16-17th century) and one of these relics, that's, supposedly, part of the tip of the sword used for St. James beheading, according to the certificate.
Very interesting, eerie, astonishing artifacts, but even the Shroud fits perfectly the historical scenario of the 14th century, apart from the forensic evidences.
 

Indy's brother

New member
Yure said:
I happen to own (I have some high priests as ancestors) many of these "emission certificates" (16-17th century) and one of these relics, that's, supposedly, part of the tip of the sword used for St. James beheading, according to the certificate.

Oh Yure, you HAVE to scan and post pics of these. Start a separate thread for us....?

Please?
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Yure said:
A very strong point, imho, is that right after the Middle Ages, and later in specific times (like the Counter Reform), there's been a high quantity of relics fabricated for both political (to raise awareness and strenghten the position of the Christian Church), and economic reasons, since relics were fabricated and sold by the Christian Church together with an "authenticity" certificate.
This practice is almost as old as the Church itself. Perhaps the most interesting example is the whole existence of sovereign Vatican state, which is based on such a scam. Look up the "Donation of Constantine" for details.
 

Yure

Well-known member
Finn said:
This practice is almost as old as the Church itself. Perhaps the most interesting example is the whole existence of sovereign Vatican state, which is based on such a scam. Look up the "Donation of Constantine" for details.

True, Dante himself (although the authenticity of the document was already being disputed and he was prone to consider it a forgery) puts Constantine in Hell because of the donation (that he pinpoints as the source of the Church-Popes decay).

@Indy's broter: I'll be happy to share them with the Raveners! Those are not uncommon though, the 17th century was filled with them, even "bigger" fakes like relics of the Cross and the nails, etc. but the documents are interesting anyway.
As soon as I'll spend a couple of days away from Naples and go to the family house in medieval Spoleto I'll take some pictures :)
 
Finn said:
This practice is almost as old as the Church itself. Perhaps the most interesting example is the whole existence of sovereign Vatican state, which is based on such a scam. Look up the "Donation of Constantine" for details.

Scam is one way of putting it...

Fr. Malachi Martin's contention in his book The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church is that, starting with the Emperor Constantine's legalization of Christianity in 313, the Catholic Church made a Faustian Bargain with "the world" and temporal power which undermined its spiritual authority, hindered its Gospel mission and corrupted its hierarchy at its heart.

Yet the Church has done so much good as inspired by Christ...
 

Yure

Well-known member
"Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. "
(Matthew 10, 9-10)

Pope-Benedict-XVI.jpg
 

Yure

Well-known member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Yet the Church has done so much good as inspired by Christ...

Those were people. Church is politics, NOT inspired by Christ... believe me.
 
Yure said:
"Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. "
(Matthew 10, 9-10)

Hmmm...

Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. Matthew (22:21)

So either I have money to pay taxes or I give everything away...hmmm.
 
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Yure said:
Those were people. Church is politics, NOT inspired by Christ... believe me.

Even Christ himself had Judas...

Originally Posted by (Matthew 16:18)
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This about the guy he says later:

Originally Posted by (Matthew 26:34)
..this night, before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

So while you gaze on the gilded figure remember this golden oldie:

Originally Posted by (Matthew 10:20)
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Scam is one way of putting it...



Yet the Church has done so much good as inspired by Christ...

Well Rocket, my friend, as much as I respect you, you know I'm going to be standing with Finn on this one. ;)

I have an old paperback on the Turin Shroud. On the day it was announced in the press that the carbon dating indicated it to be a fake, I wrote the details of it inside the front. Another one for Indy's skeptical 'no' pile.
 
Montana Smith said:
Well Rocket, my friend, as much as I respect you, you know I'm going to be standing with Finn on this one. ;)

I have an old paperback on the Turin Shroud. On the day it was announced in the press that the carbon dating indicated it to be a fake, I wrote the details of it inside the front. Another one for Indy's skeptical 'no' pile.

Cheers Smitty, though I'm not referring to the shoud. As far as I know the shroud belongs in the: Fanwork and Activities thread of The Church.net.:hat:

I was referring to the burgeoning concept of corruption and the church...
 
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