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Old 08-07-2009, 06:55 PM   #51
Grizzlor
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What I find so hilarious is that the people screaming the most really have no dog in this fight. They don't work in the healthcare industry, and have affordable care, or have never had a health crisis that nearly bankrupts them. It's really this mean streak that comes out. Many of these protesters would actually benefit from expanded care. The people who will get taxed for this are very rich, and honestly it won't dent their country club membership. Also, why must ever segment of the economy be open freely to giant profits at the expense of the people?
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Old 08-07-2009, 10:31 PM   #52
WillKill4Food
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Originally Posted by Moedred
And like I stated earlier, letters to congresspersons are a better outlet right now.
Not always. Someone I know wrote a letter to a local Republican congressman berating him for unfairly pigeon-holing liberal candidates. The congressman's office responded with a form thank-you letter thanking him for an "endorsement."

It's a sad but true fact that many politicians (not all, and maybe not most, but many) no longer see themselves as servants of the people, but rather people to be served.
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:36 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by WillKill4Food
Oh, really? Barack Obama called for 20,000 new troops to Afghanistan and authorized the deployment of 17,000 troops to Afghanistan on February 17, 2009 and an extra 4,000 later in the year to supplement the training of Afghan security forces. The extra 20,000 troops will increase the US presence from 32,000 to 52,000, bringing the total international troop presence to roughly 60,000.

I understand your point here Willkill. But this is a simple case of "do the math".

I see that President Obama will increase US troop strength in Afghanistan from 32,000 to 52,000. OK, that's a 20,000 increase. But at the same time President Obama is ENDING the Iraq war, which will bring 140,000 troops home.

That's 120,000 soldiers who will be able to come home. And that will be one senseless war Ended.

One thing at a time.

Willkill, you're too intelligent a person to be disingenuous. So please don't be.

Now, on to the fellow here who seems to rant a lot about Founding Fathers, and FREEDOM, etc.

Two things: First of all, don't confuse FREEDOM, with FREE TRADE, and the FREE MARKET. Free Trade, and the Free Market are warm fuzzy words that have results that are anything but warm and fuzzy. They are the buzzwords of the multinational corporations who couldn't care a damn about the American worker, or the Ameican family, or the future of America or its people.

You're waving the flag for the wrong people. The multinationals owe allegiance to NO COUNTRY. They don't give a damn about AMERICA. So stop championing Free Trade, and the Free Market.

Which brings me to my second thing: If you'd do any research at all, you'd see that the so called "Founding Fathers" were all about tarriffs and restrictions on imports, etc. in order to protect the American Economy.

Do the research.

When you champion Free Trade, as some kind of "Red White and Blue" AMERICAN thing.......well, it just doesn't make sense.

When those Corporate people talk about "leveling the playing field", and other similar statements with regard to Free Trade, what they are talking about is bringing the standards of living of America and the West even with the living standard of countries like India, China, Mexico, etc.

The only way to raise their standard of living is to lower yours.

Is that good for Americans? Or other Western nations?

So let me see if I got this right? I care about the American worker and his/her family, and care about their health care, and standard of living. I don't want to see their jobs exported overseas.

I am UN-AMERICAN because of that.

But on the other hand, some folks here champion Free Trade, and the Free Market, et. al. ...which means allowing the multinational corporations to export American jobs overseas, ruin the American economy, and lower the standard of living of Americans.

They are SUPER AMERICAN PATRIOTS!!!

Sorry, but it doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 08-08-2009, 12:29 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by monkey
I understand your point here Willkill. But this is a simple case of "do the math".

I see that President Obama will increase US troop strength in Afghanistan from 32,000 to 52,000. OK, that's a 20,000 increase. But at the same time President Obama is ENDING the Iraq war, which will bring 140,000 troops home.

That's 120,000 soldiers who will be able to come home. And that will be one senseless war Ended.

One thing at a time.

Willkill, you're too intelligent a person to be disingenuous. So please don't be.

Now, on to the fellow here who seems to rant a lot about Founding Fathers, and FREEDOM, etc.

Two things: First of all, don't confuse FREEDOM, with FREE TRADE, and the FREE MARKET. Free Trade, and the Free Market are warm fuzzy words that have results that are anything but warm and fuzzy. They are the buzzwords of the multinational corporations who couldn't care a damn about the American worker, or the Ameican family, or the future of America or its people.

You're waving the flag for the wrong people. The multinationals owe allegiance to NO COUNTRY. They don't give a damn about AMERICA. So stop championing Free Trade, and the Free Market.

Which brings me to my second thing: If you'd do any research at all, you'd see that the so called "Founding Fathers" were all about tarriffs and restrictions on imports, etc. in order to protect the American Economy.

Do the research.

When you champion Free Trade, as some kind of "Red White and Blue" AMERICAN thing.......well, it just doesn't make sense.

When those Corporate people talk about "leveling the playing field", and other similar statements with regard to Free Trade, what they are talking about is bringing the standards of living of America and the West even with the living standard of countries like India, China, Mexico, etc.

The only way to raise their standard of living is to lower yours.

Is that good for Americans? Or other Western nations?

So let me see if I got this right? I care about the American worker and his/her family, and care about their health care, and standard of living. I don't want to see their jobs exported overseas.

I am UN-AMERICAN because of that.

But on the other hand, some folks here champion Free Trade, and the Free Market, et. al. ...which means allowing the multinational corporations to export American jobs overseas, ruin the American economy, and lower the standard of living of Americans.

They are SUPER AMERICAN PATRIOTS!!!

Sorry, but it doesn't make sense to me.

The Free Market isn't freedom??? You can talk all you want about corruption but at the end of the day it comes down to basic freedom. The overarching question is "Do we have freedom"? You say these corporations don't care about America and the little guy, but that DOESN'T MATTER. They have the freedom NOT to care. See that's the beauty of America. Everyone can choose their own lifestyle. The government isn't controlling people. Sure, we hope these people have morals and to do the right thing, but it shouldn't and never has been forced on them. The Founding Fathers spoke a lot about this.

You are UnAmerican because you support socialism and taking away from people who earned money and giving it to those who didn't. Once again, have you not read anything by our founders? If you have, how can you support socialism and call yourself a patriot?
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Old 08-08-2009, 04:54 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by monkey
Willkill, you're too intelligent a person to be disingenuous. So please don't be.
I was, of course, critiquing your blanket statement: Obama is ending one "senseless" war, and continuing another that is not as unpopular.
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:10 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Short Round
You obviously have no idea what America stands for. Have we ever been a socialist nation? No, we haven't. Have we thrived since the beginning of our founding? Yes, we have. Now, if YOU believe socialism is good, that is different than the COUNTRY believing it's good. Our forefathers intended this to be a FREE nation. That was number one. They spoke out against socialist views over and over again. They said they feared the day when these views would enter our government. This was their goal, to keep America a free nation, with limited government. They broke away from big government in order to do this. They fought, risking their lives, to create a free nation in which people could choose their own way to live and absolutely HATED the idea of taking money from the people who earned it to give it to the ones who DIDN'T.

America has become a great nation because of our freedom and opportunity and to change it to a socialist nation will result in complete failure.

This country belongs to its current citizens, or rather the majority of them, not its founders. i.e., we define it, not the other way around. It stands for whatever we need it to stand for. The establishment and sustainably of a state can be two very different birds requiring very different strategies and policies. That was my only point. Now go back to your Fox and Friends.

I would only add that, despite the labels your kind likes to throw around, every election since 2006 has gone horribly bad for you "true American patriots." I guess we "communists" and "socialists" really do speak for the country now. Question: what does one do when he realizes his country doesn't agree with his ideology? Must feel pretty lonely out there. I'll pray for you.

Last edited by HovitosKing : 08-08-2009 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:50 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzlor
What I find so hilarious is that the people screaming the most really have no dog in this fight. They don't work in the healthcare industry, and have affordable care, or have never had a health crisis that nearly bankrupts them. It's really this mean streak that comes out. Many of these protesters would actually benefit from expanded care. The people who will get taxed for this are very rich, and honestly it won't dent their country club membership. Also, why must ever segment of the economy be open freely to giant profits at the expense of the people?

Well it makes sense, really. These people are as ignorant and laughable as the candidates they endorse.
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Old 08-08-2009, 06:34 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by HovitosKing
This country belongs to its current citizens, or rather the majority of them, not its founders. i.e., we define it, not the other way around. It stands for whatever we need it to stand for. The establishment and sustainably of a state can be two very different birds requiring very different strategies and policies. That was my only point. Now go back to your Fox and Friends.

I would only add that, despite the labels your kind likes to throw around, every election since 2006 has gone horribly bad for you "true American patriots." I guess we "communists" and "socialists" really do speak for the country now. Question: what does one do when he realizes his country doesn't agree with his ideology? Must feel pretty lonely out there. I'll pray for you.

The country should be what it was founded to be. It's worked for almost 250 years now as America has provided more freedom and opportunity than any other nation in the world. Besides, socialism is a failure and doesn't provide the freedom capitalism does. Now go back to Countdown with Keith Olbermann and reread the communist manifesto.

2006-2009 isn't very long. This kind of thing happens ALL the time. People soon will be sick of Obama and start voting in conservatives. It's just the way it goes. Also, people will realize the failure of socialism. So, don't worry about me, real Americans all agree with my ideology because they hate socialism, just as the Founding Fathers did. The Founding Fathers risked their lives to create this great nation that had the most freedom in the world, and Americans aren't going to let that be in vain. Sooner or later you will realize how stupid you were to think this country would sit back and let socialism take over. In the meantime, I'll pray for you.
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Old 08-09-2009, 08:10 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Short Round
The Free Market isn't freedom??? You can talk all you want about corruption but at the end of the day it comes down to basic freedom. The overarching question is "Do we have freedom"? You say these corporations don't care about America and the little guy, but that DOESN'T MATTER. They have the freedom NOT to care. See that's the beauty of America. Everyone can choose their own lifestyle. The government isn't controlling people. Sure, we hope these people have morals and to do the right thing, but it shouldn't and never has been forced on them. The Founding Fathers spoke a lot about this.

You are UnAmerican because you support socialism and taking away from people who earned money and giving it to those who didn't. Once again, have you not read anything by our founders? If you have, how can you support socialism and call yourself a patriot?

So you support the Multinational Corporations' RIGHT to export American Jobs overseas? In some kind of ...twisted....vision...version.....of FREEDOM that you have (or got from FOX NEWS)?

So it is AMERICAN!! And PATRIOTIC!! to destroy American Society by closing down factories and putting Americans out of work?

I know that Haji over there in India, or Chin Min Win over there in China just loves people like YOU. Because you are the flag wavers for their cause. They want to upgrade their standard of living at the expense of the American Worker, and therefore, American society.

They LOVE YOU!! You are doing a great job for them!! Haji says "keep up the great work!" Chin Min Win says "Thank you for your support!".

As long as your shrill voice is lifted in the glorification of "Pure Capitalism", or "Free Trade", or whatever corporate catch word you want to use........And as long as you deride any attempt to actually help and benefit the American Worker, you support Haji, and Chin Min Win.

They thank you.

I don't know where you got your strange ideas about the "Founding Fathers", but if you would do a little research, you would see clearly that the "Founding Fathers" were NOT for the economic policies that you seem to champion with such zeal.

They were ALL about Protectionism, Tariffs, and the like. They were all about protecting the American economy, and therefore AMERICANS!

Someone else here suggested recently, and I suggested some time ago, that you turn off FOX NEWS for just a bit, and actually try to learn some actual facts about the world around you.

I suggest it again here: Please try to open your mind and learn the true facts about what you are talking about.

Also, please don't call me Un-American again. You've done so several times now, and it is insulting.
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Old 08-09-2009, 05:06 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by monkey
So you support the Multinational Corporations' RIGHT to export American Jobs overseas? In some kind of ...twisted....vision...version.....of FREEDOM that you have (or got from FOX NEWS)?

So it is AMERICAN!! And PATRIOTIC!! to destroy American Society by closing down factories and putting Americans out of work?

I know that Haji over there in India, or Chin Min Win over there in China just loves people like YOU. Because you are the flag wavers for their cause. They want to upgrade their standard of living at the expense of the American Worker, and therefore, American society.

They LOVE YOU!! You are doing a great job for them!! Haji says "keep up the great work!" Chin Min Win says "Thank you for your support!".

As long as your shrill voice is lifted in the glorification of "Pure Capitalism", or "Free Trade", or whatever corporate catch word you want to use........And as long as you deride any attempt to actually help and benefit the American Worker, you support Haji, and Chin Min Win.

They thank you.

I don't know where you got your strange ideas about the "Founding Fathers", but if you would do a little research, you would see clearly that the "Founding Fathers" were NOT for the economic policies that you seem to champion with such zeal.

They were ALL about Protectionism, Tariffs, and the like. They were all about protecting the American economy, and therefore AMERICANS!

Someone else here suggested recently, and I suggested some time ago, that you turn off FOX NEWS for just a bit, and actually try to learn some actual facts about the world around you.

I suggest it again here: Please try to open your mind and learn the true facts about what you are talking about.

Also, please don't call me Un-American again. You've done so several times now, and it is insulting.

All I was saying is that corporations have rights too. I don't want them to step all over the American Worker. If they are doing illegal activities, then of course they should be closed and sent to prison. However, if they are not doing anything illegal, then whatever they do is alright because it is LEGAL.

The Founding Fathers were for my economic policies.
“A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government…” Thomas Jefferson

What does that sound like to you????


“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.” — Thomas Jefferson

"Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.” — James Madison


So actually they WERE for the my policies and the free market. They HATED socialism.

Now, I ask that you actually try to understand those quotes. They show how the fathers desired a free market and hated big government.

If you are for socialism, you are UnAmerican.
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Old 08-10-2009, 08:57 AM   #61
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Shortround, I'm not "For" Socialism by itself.

I AM for National Socialism.

I am certainly against Communism, which is NOT Socialism.

I am for the strong Nation State. Something that America used to be.

Anyway though, you seem to be a very patriotic person. I also think that perhaps your message may have been misunderstood here.

But also I think that you might be misunderstanding some of the other messages here.

What you call "Socialism", has actually been a part of the American system for quite a while.

Roosevelt indeed brought a LOT of Socialist policies to the American system. But Roosevelt is honored as one of the greatest Presidents.

Go figure.

What bothers me about some of the people who hold opinions similar to yours is that they miss the whole point of what it means to be "Conservative", and "Republican".

The George W. Bush Administration was perhaps THE most RADICAL Administration in the History of America.

George W. Bush was neither Republican, nor Conservative. In fact, he was quite the opposite of both.

His Foreign Policy was dictated by a Foreign Nation. His Domestic Policies were ...........insane. HUGE spending!!

to quote Dick Cheney: "Deficits don't matter".

Please do the research.

Rampant Capitalism is NOT good for America.......OBVIOUSLY.......ask anyone in Detroit.

For the Government to apply restrictions, Tariffs, Taxes, etc....for the good of the American people..is.........well.......maybe GOOD for the American People.

Ya think maybe???

I don't know, maybe it's a Tribal thing.

But I don't want to gang up on you.

Obviously you are patriotic and motivated. I only wish you would channel this in the RIGHT direction.
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Old 08-10-2009, 12:22 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey
Shortround, I'm not "For" Socialism by itself.

I AM for National Socialism.

I am certainly against Communism, which is NOT Socialism.

I am for the strong Nation State. Something that America used to be.

Anyway though, you seem to be a very patriotic person. I also think that perhaps your message may have been misunderstood here.

But also I think that you might be misunderstanding some of the other messages here.

What you call "Socialism", has actually been a part of the American system for quite a while.

Roosevelt indeed brought a LOT of Socialist policies to the American system. But Roosevelt is honored as one of the greatest Presidents.

Go figure.

What bothers me about some of the people who hold opinions similar to yours is that they miss the whole point of what it means to be "Conservative", and "Republican".

The George W. Bush Administration was perhaps THE most RADICAL Administration in the History of America.

George W. Bush was neither Republican, nor Conservative. In fact, he was quite the opposite of both.

His Foreign Policy was dictated by a Foreign Nation. His Domestic Policies were ...........insane. HUGE spending!!

to quote Dick Cheney: "Deficits don't matter".

Please do the research.

Rampant Capitalism is NOT good for America.......OBVIOUSLY.......ask anyone in Detroit.

For the Government to apply restrictions, Tariffs, Taxes, etc....for the good of the American people..is.........well.......maybe GOOD for the American People.

Ya think maybe???

I don't know, maybe it's a Tribal thing.

But I don't want to gang up on you.

Obviously you are patriotic and motivated. I only wish you would channel this in the RIGHT direction.

You know, I guess your honesty about your Socialist thoughts is what seperates you from understanding the problem.

Here is the problem...TAXATION and UNLIMITED POWER!

This billnot only PROMISES middle class tax increases, it gives the Government and their agents TOTAL CONTROL over YOUR health.

You keep blaming Bush..However, the American people have historically been against any type of socialized Medicine. We do NOT want to mirror other countries who has VERY large and scary problems with their Healthcare system.

I live in a State where Government run Healthcare almost destroyed us. The Fraud and use by Illegals was the major factors. Under this new system, we will now have to pay for Illegal's care. It will honestly BREAK this country like nothing else has ever done before.

How can you NOT be PI$$ED about the Goverment being involved in banks, private business, and health care? A TRUE American President would let companies like GM fail. Let Banks close and tackle Health Care by first attackin Illegals ( by closing the borders on ALL SIDES ) and by stopping fraud.

After that, you can fine tune the system to better use the mix of Private Insurance and Medicare / Medicaid.

I'm not too worried now, the People are speaking as they should. Americans are PI$$ED off and the Democrats are starting to see that their terms are limited. If this is Pushed through, it will be the death nail for the Government as we know it.

Either way, Obama has lost. He has lost the people. We don't want this type of change. The change he wants to force upon us is nothing more than Tyrany.....Tyrants are NOT American...So, He will be stopped politically and he will learn his role quickly. He is NOT Emperor...He is not a King. His job is to do things the American way and to show the rest of the world why America is it's own country and why Freedom should be desired.

This is something that is spreading throught the country....It amazes me that the Community Organizer himself "Chairman Malbama" is upset that the Greatest Community in the world is organizing....AGAINST Socialized medicine.
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:00 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey
Shortround, I'm not "For" Socialism by itself.

I AM for National Socialism.

I am certainly against Communism, which is NOT Socialism.

I am for the strong Nation State. Something that America used to be.

Anyway though, you seem to be a very patriotic person. I also think that perhaps your message may have been misunderstood here.

But also I think that you might be misunderstanding some of the other messages here.

What you call "Socialism", has actually been a part of the American system for quite a while.

Roosevelt indeed brought a LOT of Socialist policies to the American system. But Roosevelt is honored as one of the greatest Presidents.

Go figure.

What bothers me about some of the people who hold opinions similar to yours is that they miss the whole point of what it means to be "Conservative", and "Republican".

The George W. Bush Administration was perhaps THE most RADICAL Administration in the History of America.

George W. Bush was neither Republican, nor Conservative. In fact, he was quite the opposite of both.

His Foreign Policy was dictated by a Foreign Nation. His Domestic Policies were ...........insane. HUGE spending!!

to quote Dick Cheney: "Deficits don't matter".

Please do the research.

Rampant Capitalism is NOT good for America.......OBVIOUSLY.......ask anyone in Detroit.

For the Government to apply restrictions, Tariffs, Taxes, etc....for the good of the American people..is.........well.......maybe GOOD for the American People.

Ya think maybe???

I don't know, maybe it's a Tribal thing.

But I don't want to gang up on you.

Obviously you are patriotic and motivated. I only wish you would channel this in the RIGHT direction.

Well, Roosevelt brought socialist policies in his time, but they didn't last and aren't still around today. And actually those policies failed to stimulate the economy. WWII got us out of the depression.

I know that Bush wasn't a huge conservative. He spent tons of money and created governmental programs. The thing I praise Bush for is protecting us, not for his economic policies.

Restrictions must be applied, but to a certain extent. Obama is going WAY too far. Socialized medicine will RUIN our economy.

I am going in the right direction. I love America and I strongly believe in the principles it was founded upon. You don't seem to like these principles though. The FOunding Fathers wanted small government and capitalism. Once again, they absolutely hated socialism.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:34 PM   #64
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money"--Margaret Thatcher
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Old 08-11-2009, 11:52 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Short Round
The FOunding Fathers wanted small government and capitalism. Once again, they absolutely hated socialism.
How can a man hate something that doesn't exist?

You ramble on and on and on about the ideas of America's Founding Fathers but it appears that the context of history is completely lost to you.

I think it was promptly pointed out in this thread once already that the ideas of workers' equality and society that takes care of them are nearly a century younger than the US Declaration of Independence. So unless these respectable men had the ability to see the future, there is no way their theses could be understood as statements against socialism.

No, what they are are statements against monarchy or other similiar societies where a single ruler decides the fates of a whole nation. In the 18th century practically every nation in the old country fell under this definition, and this is what the people crafting the concept of the United States wished to break away from. In the days of Jefferson and Franklin, term "big government" didn't mean the actual head count of the ruling class (in fact, majority of the "small governments" these days are significantly larger than what constituted a big one back in the day), but a government that rules over its people instead of for it.



“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.” - Thomas Jefferson


“A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government…” - Thomas Jefferson


These are great quotes, but again, we need to place them in the correct historical context. During the days of Jefferson, there were no large corporations. Apart from government-run militaries no man had the need for hardly more then a dozen employees. In fact, most private enterprise was run by single craftsmen who had no more than one or two employees and usually the profession moved along in the family - again very unlike than in the world of today.

Also, what was the United States of America back then? Definitely not the nation of 300 million people spread across fifty states on a large continent. Nope, it was a group of thirteen small colonies on the East Coast and a huge batch of untamed wilderness towards the west. "The Land of Opportunity" back then meant that any man with a bit of frontier spirit and healthy determination could get out there, make a claim on a previously unowned land and start building his destiny from a scratch. Good luck trying to claim a homestead in the 21st century, at least without a significant sum of modern currency to begin with.

It would also be sufficient to mention another idea of Jefferson - the one that was built on the concept of Enlightment. The Founding Fathers were in fact not for a social system that remains unchanged in a world that rapidly changes around it. Thomas Jefferson himself stated that every nation should rework its social and legal system after every two decades, to best suit the views of the current generation. In that light, it's hard to imagine him being pleased by someone who clings onto ideas that are over two hundred years old especially in a world that has changed extremely drastically over those centuries.

No nation, no government is born perfect. For example, it took almost hundred years from the Founding Fathers to abolish slavery. Or are we to say that because that didn't come up on the agenda list since way after the beginning, it could still be okay in the modern times?


Note that this whole wall of text however doesn't have much to do with being for or against concerning the particular issues of Obama's plans for unified healthcare. It's for the men wiser than me to see what would be the optimal route, but to oppose it simply because "it's something they didn't see fit back then" is, frankly, a little naive.
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Old 08-11-2009, 02:45 PM   #66
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How can a man hate something that doesn't exist?

You ramble on and on and on about the ideas of America's Founding Fathers but it appears that the context of history is completely lost to you.

I think it was promptly pointed out in this thread once already that the ideas of workers' equality and society that takes care of them are nearly a century younger than the US Declaration of Independence. So unless these respectable men had the ability to see the future, there is no way their theses could be understood as statements against socialism.

No, what they are are statements against monarchy or other similiar societies where a single ruler decides the fates of a whole nation. In the 18th century practically every nation in the old country fell under this definition, and this is what the people crafting the concept of the United States wished to break away from. In the days of Jefferson and Franklin, term "big government" didn't mean the actual head count of the ruling class (in fact, majority of the "small governments" these days are significantly larger than what constituted a big one back in the day), but a government that rules over its people instead of for it.



“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.” - Thomas Jefferson


“A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government…” - Thomas Jefferson


These are great quotes, but again, we need to place them in the correct historical context. During the days of Jefferson, there were no large corporations. Apart from government-run militaries no man had the need for hardly more then a dozen employees. In fact, most private enterprise was run by single craftsmen who had no more than one or two employees and usually the profession moved along in the family - again very unlike than in the world of today.

Also, what was the United States of America back then? Definitely not the nation of 300 million people spread across fifty states on a large continent. Nope, it was a group of thirteen small colonies on the East Coast and a huge batch of untamed wilderness towards the west. "The Land of Opportunity" back then meant that any man with a bit of frontier spirit and healthy determination could get out there, make a claim on a previously unowned land and start building his destiny from a scratch. Good luck trying to claim a homestead in the 21st century, at least without a significant sum of modern currency to begin with.

It would also be sufficient to mention another idea of Jefferson - the one that was built on the concept of Enlightment. The Founding Fathers were in fact not for a social system that remains unchanged in a world that rapidly changes around it. Thomas Jefferson himself stated that every nation should rework its social and legal system after every two decades, to best suit the views of the current generation. In that light, it's hard to imagine him being pleased by someone who clings onto ideas that are over two hundred years old especially in a world that has changed extremely drastically over those centuries.

No nation, no government is born perfect. For example, it took almost hundred years from the Founding Fathers to abolish slavery. Or are we to say that because that didn't come up on the agenda list since way after the beginning, it could still be okay in the modern times?


Note that this whole wall of text however doesn't have much to do with being for or against concerning the particular issues of Obama's plans for unified healthcare. It's for the men wiser than me to see what would be the optimal route, but to oppose it simply because "it's something they didn't see fit back then" is, frankly, a little naive.

Socialism may not have existed in NAME, but it's ideas have been around since the beginning.

How can their quotes not be against socialism??? They clearly say it's WRONG to take from the people who earn money to give to the ones who don't.

What he meant by big government was the amount of POWER it held. The Founding Fathers believed the government's powers should be limited.

So, you think Jefferson would change his views and be for big government just because the U.S became larger? It doesn't matter if America has become bigger, it doesn't change the philosophy behind their words. They clearly said big government was bad. They hated the thought of it limiting the freedoms of the people. They wanted the system of the free market and didn't want the government to get involved and begin taking money from it's citizens just to give it to people who haven't earned it.

Well, Jefferson may have stated that, but he expressed his dislike for socialism, even though it wasn't called that yet, and for big government. He didn't want THAT kind of change. He stated that MANY times.

So, I am not naive, I just follow the principles my country was founded upon because it's how it was supposed to be and has worked for almost 250 years. It's actually quite naive to believe that the founding fathers would have changed their STRONG opinions against big government and socialism.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:30 PM   #67
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to quote Dick Cheney: "Deficits don't matter".
Please do the research.
They do now...
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:34 PM   #68
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Oh well, I already knew it hardly would make you consider anything, but had to get it out of the system nevertheless...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Short Round
Socialism may not have existed in NAME, but it's ideas have been around since the beginning.
And that's where you're wrong. The whole idea of socialism wasn't conceived until after the "technological revolution" in the mid 1800s that truly created a so-called "working class". Yes, there had been peons and other people of lower social status before that, but the workers were farmers and craftsmen, who mostly labored alone or in small communities. And were pretty self-sustained.

Socialism stands for dividing the goods among large group of people connected at best by a loose common nominator. So no, the ideas of socialism really didn't come around before there really was need to gather a lot of people together to achieve a goal. And apart from militaries, those circumstances didn't really exist before the era of mass factory labor.

So yeah, it didn't much exist either in name nor idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Short Round
What he meant by big government was the amount of POWER it held. The Founding Fathers believed the government's powers should be limited.

So, you think Jefferson would change his views and be for big government just because the U.S became larger? It doesn't matter if America has become bigger, it doesn't change the philosophy behind their words. They clearly said big government was bad. They hated the thought of it limiting the freedoms of the people. They wanted the system of the free market and didn't want the government to get involved and begin taking money from it's citizens just to give it to people who haven't earned.
I never exclipicitly stated that it's correct to assume he would change his views had he the chance to see the drastically changed world since his own day. But it's not quite right either to claim as a brazen fact that he wouldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Short Round
So, I am not naive, I just follow the principles my country was founded upon because it's how it was supposed to be and has worked for almost 250 years. It's actually quite naive to believe that the founding fathers would have changed their STRONG opinions against big government and socialism.
Some empires have stood for a thousand years, but in the end, they all have fell. You may not like it, but the world has never been a socially stable place. Besides, the whole concept of enlightment stands for creating an ideal society for the present environment. Your Founding Fathers created theirs for one where neither socialism nor big corporations didn't exist, and where people truly had a chance to get out there and make something out of nothing. The fact that the system still stands after two hundred and fifty years is a great testament to their ingenuinity, no one's denying that.

But what makes a person "UnAmerican" if he desires a little regulation and government control to proctect the interests of his own and those around him? Free Trade, Free Market are nice concepts, yeah, but what about the freedom of thought? If you are seriously telling people that they have no choice but to accept what you personally view as right and if they disagree they should get the hell out or cope, I'd like you to meet two buddies of mine. Here're Adolf and Joseph...
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:25 PM   #69
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Oh well, I already knew it hardly would make you consider anything, but had to get it out of the system nevertheless...

And that's where you're wrong. The whole idea of socialism wasn't conceived until after the "technological revolution" in the mid 1800s that truly created a so-called "working class". Yes, there had been peons and other people of lower social status before that, but the workers were farmers and craftsmen, who mostly labored alone or in small communities. And were pretty self-sustained.

Socialism stands for dividing the goods among large group of people connected at best by a loose common nominator. So no, the ideas of socialism really didn't come around before there really was need to gather a lot of people together to achieve a goal. And apart from militaries, those circumstances didn't really exist before the era of mass factory labor.

So yeah, it didn't much exist either in name nor idea.

I never exclipicitly stated that it's correct to assume he would change his views had he the chance to see the drastically changed world since his own day. But it's not quite right either to claim as a brazen fact that he wouldn't.

Some empires have stood for a thousand years, but in the end, they all have fell. You may not like it, but the world has never been a socially stable place. Besides, the whole concept of enlightment stands for creating an ideal society for the present environment. Your Founding Fathers created theirs for one where neither socialism nor big corporations didn't exist, and where people truly had a chance to get out there and make something out of nothing. The fact that the system still stands after two hundred and fifty years is a great testament to their ingenuinity, no one's denying that.

But what makes a person "UnAmerican" if he desires a little regulation and government control to proctect the interests of his own and those around him? Free Trade, Free Market are nice concepts, yeah, but what about the freedom of thought? If you are seriously telling people that they have no choice but to accept what you personally view as right and if they disagree they should get the hell out or cope, I'd like you to meet two buddies of mine. Here're Adolf and Joseph...

The basic ideas of socialism have always been around. "Dividing the goods" has always been around. Jefferson and other founders spoke out against this, as shown by those quotes.
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are willing to work and give to those who would not."-Jefferson

Yeah but the reason WHY it has stood so long and so strongly is because of our system. And now people want to change that. We were founded on certain principles and have, for the most part, stuck by them. Because of this, we have had success. And again, the founding fathers spoke out against the basic idea of socialism. Big corporations may not have existed but that is completely irrelevant. Do you honestly believe Jefferson would have said "You know what, these corporations are too big, they need to be limited and controlled"? Or would he have said "Good, people worked hard to start these corporations and are now becoming wealthy because of it". By reading the words he wrote, you have to see he would say something along the lines of the latter.

"A little regulation"? I wish that were so, it's a lot more than a little. What makes a person UnAmerican is if he supports socialism, a system contrary to the views of the founders of this country. Now you have made a great mistake saying the government protects the interests of the people though this system. It is the exact opposite. The best the government can do for an individual is to let him be. Let him pursue happiness.

I'm not limiting anyone's freedom to think. I'm just arguing that one who believes in these ideas does not love America and what it stands for. But I would never try to limit one's freedom. That's actually what the people who believe in big government/socialism are trying to do.
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."-Jefferson
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Old 08-11-2009, 05:16 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moedred
They do now...

We are so fu©ked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Short Round
Do you honestly believe Jefferson would have said...

While I suppose we are all free to speculate on what TJ or any of the founding fathers would have said or thought about current issues, I must ask: Does it really matter? The founding fathers' most important legacy was not their thoughts on individual issues, but rather the system of government they put in place, a system that places paramount importance on what we think.

It was never their intention to shackle us to their rules and world views. I am reminded of Lincoln's words about a government of the people, by the people, for the people. The living people. I'm sure the founding fathers would have been horrified at the idea of outlawing alcohol in this country, yet the 18th amendment did just that. A few years later it was repealed. A good many founding fathers probaby would have been upset at the idea of black people being free, owning property, and marrying whites. This is the great thing about our system of govenrment, it allows us, meaning the living breathing American people, to decide what is best. We may not get to vote individually on every issue, but our elected representatives are beholden to what we want, not what Thomas Jefferson or anyone else dead for 200 years wanted.

Thus, if we wake up tomorrow and 99% of the American people want national socialism, then by God that's what we'll have. If the majority of the American people want socialized heath care, then we'll have that too, and no amount of kicking and screaming about what the founding fathers wanted will change that. However, I think that a good number of Americans (myself included) find Obama's plan to be ill-conceived. Just look at the ruckus everyone is raising at the town hall meetings across the country. Any member of Congress who votes for this plan will have to answer when the bill comes due.
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Old 08-11-2009, 06:29 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Short Round
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."-Jefferson

SR - Stop needlessly quoting entire posts in your responses; it's annoying. Either find what you're directly responding to, or you need to drastically cut down the amount of quoted text.

Your quote, however, is misleading. It implies that the boys on the docks, and the men at work don't really want to; instead, they want a hand out. That's patently false. Labour has seen its wages depressed for decades in favour of increased corporate profits. CEOs operate in a culture of fear, a fear of being fired by their board and shareholders if profits drop. In order to promote profits, they slash operating costs. The first to go is always labour.

You do not have the right to work in these United States.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Short Round
And again, the founding fathers spoke out against the basic idea of socialism. Big corporations may not have existed but that is completely irrelevant. Do you honestly believe Jefferson would have said "You know what, these corporations are too big, they need to be limited and controlled"?

You need to read The Jungle, and it won't even cost you a penny. You can find it online through the University of California.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Short Round
The best the government can do for an individual is to let him be. Let him pursue happiness.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few; this is part of the reasoning behind why the United States doesn't negotiate with terrorists. On the domestic front then, how does an individual pursue his happiness when those select few (that 1-percent that controls 90-percent of the wealth) have stacked the system in their favour?

"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."-Jefferson[/quote]

The course of history today shows that the more government capitulates to corporate and monetary interests, liberty decreases.

"I have seen enough of the way in which the terrible consciousness of serfdom destroys and poisons the existence of house-serfs, the way in which it oppresses and stupefies their souls. Peasants, especially those who pay a fixed sum in lieu of labour, have less feeling of their personal bondage; they somehow succeed in not believing in their complete slavery. But for the house-serf, sitting on a dirty locker in the hall from morning till night, or standing with a plate at table, there is no room for doubt." - Alexander Herzen

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Old 08-11-2009, 07:06 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Saboteur
SR - Stop needlessly quoting entire posts in your responses; it's annoying. Either find what you're directly responding to, or you need to drastically cut down the amount of quoted text.

Your quote, however, is misleading. It implies that the boys on the docks, and the men at work don't really want to; instead, they want a hand out. That's patently false. Labour has seen its wages depressed for decades in favour of increased corporate profits. CEOs operate in a culture of fear, a fear of being fired by their board and shareholders if profits drop. In order to promote profits, they slash operating costs. The first to go is always labour.

You do not have the right to work in these United States.



You need to read The Jungle, and it won't even cost you a penny. You can find it online through the University of California.




The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few; this is part of the reasoning behind why the United States doesn't negotiate with terrorists. On the domestic front then, how does an individual pursue his happiness when those select few (that 1-percent that controls 90-percent of the wealth) have stacked the system in their favour?

"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."-Jefferson




Uh, let me respond to your demand. NO. I'll quote if I want to. Besides, my posts don't even have that many quotes. Maybe you should actually read them, you'll learn something.

I never said those people don't work. They make money for their work. Just because others are wealthier does't mean they should be forced to give it away.

You can talk about "needs" all you want, but the most important thing is freedom. First off, you blame big corporations. Let me ask you something: Are they doing anything illegal? If they are, they should be shut down. If they are NOT, whatever they are doing is alright. Thats how this country works. We have freedoms. We can choose our own lifestyles. Of course everyone hopes people will do the right thing, but if they don't and it is legal, then the government should not interfere AT ALL.

Wrong, history does not show that. History shows that the free market makes nations thrive. Competition is good. Working for your OWN living is good.
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:37 PM   #73
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I do see the concern for the quality of healthcare, and I think President Obama should slow down a bit and focus on the economy before he starts to think about something this huge.

Your government healthcare office will be using the top of the line computers available in 1997, and in 6 to 8 weeks you'll know what kind of care to receive....
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:09 PM   #74
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My opinion on universal health care is not set in stone at all, but I do wonder about this article that I read, which is a few years old, but the numbers of the article probably haven't changed all that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence R. Huntoon, MD, PhD
Collectively, the uninsured pay about $17.1 billion in extra taxes each year because they do not receive the same tax break as insured people with similar income. If state and local taxes are included, the extra taxes paid by the uninsured exceed $19 billion per year.

Where, we must ask, is the compassion for these overtaxed, hard-working people? This is clearly a government-created problem. What we don't need is more government (nationalized health care) to "fix it." What we need is to get government out of our wallets so people can have their own money needed to purchase and own their own health insurance.

Does this not seem more sensible, simpler, and more in line with the constitutional purpose of government?
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:47 PM   #75
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They do now...


pshaw....they can just flat tax the unemployme...er TARP benefits we'll all soon be getting.

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