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Old 10-21-2005, 10:52 PM   #26
Joe Brody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
[W]hat would be worthy of Indy's obssession? The only thing we have to go on to this point of the trilogy is Fortune and Glory.

I have argued that Indy's obssession should arise from a past mistake -- most likely a mistake made during the Fortune and Glory years. That's why I think Indy IV will revolve around a story in which Indy's task is to return (or repatriate) an artifact.

Think of Indy's lifelong obsession with the Cross of Coronado. In the beginning of Last Crusade, we see the last moment of Indy's childhood and its youthful idealism ("that artifacts belongs in a musuem"). But like all teens Indy becomes a hell-raiser. Like all teens he pushes his limits and this takes him down the deviant grave-robber route, which includes the ToD and Raiders years. By the time of the main Last Crusade story, however, thirty/forty something Indy re-captures part of his youth (he gets to be Junior again with the added bonus of being validated by Dad -- as we've discussed in other threads) and we witness Indy finally and trully displaying an unequivocal (abd more mature) do-the-right-thing mature realism (whish echoes the young idealism).

So what's left to our aging self-actualized hero? To make amends for past wrongs.

But these 'past-wrong' theories have been the subject of other threads. I was just sitting here trying to get my thoughts straight on Ravenwood and I wanted to reply on this point. If we're close to shooting (Pale Horse?), there are few days left to spin all these random theories.
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Old 10-21-2005, 11:57 PM   #27
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To toss in an aside, I tend to agree with what you say, Joe, in the sense that I've always felt that a fourth film necessitates Indiana putting to rest his inner demons, which are hinted at, particularly in Raiders. It's always been difficult for me to envision Indiana becoming obsessed with an artifact as, in my view, Indiana's "fortune and glory" mindset was put to rest in Last Crusade with his response to the line, "Indiana...let it go." Just as Deadlock has indicated in reference to his screenplay, while obsession is a dominating theme in the trilogy, the final chapter should turn Indy's obsession to satisfying a desperate inner need, such as atonement. The "prize", as it were, should be some kind of means to this end. (Side note: If the object of the quest is a means to redemption, how interesting that said motivation matches one of the theories that you proposed regarding Ravenwood's pursuit of the Ark.)

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Old 10-22-2005, 12:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
That's why I think Indy IV will revolve around a story in which Indy's task is to return (or repatriate) an artifact.

I have always felt that there should be a screenplay where Indiana has to Return the Ark...
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Old 10-22-2005, 01:29 PM   #29
Joe Brody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
I have always felt that there should be a screenplay where Indiana has to Return the Ark...

You might be right -- but it would be tampering with one of the greatest endings in film history. I like the Ark in the warehouse, forgotten.
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Old 10-22-2005, 02:24 PM   #30
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Joe, you might have hit on something Lucas can not do and that is leave well enough alone! Hopefully the creative folks can make a new scrpit that does not need to feed off the older stories, but with the threat/promise of the women returning it makes sense that they will revist an older story. But, this thread has seemed to gotten off topic and may need to be moved to Indy IV, right pale?
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Old 10-22-2005, 08:01 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
You might be right -- but it would be tampering with one of the greatest endings in film history. I like the Ark in the warehouse, forgotten.
Because of this fitting ending, I'm torn on the issue of the Ark making a second appearance. On one hand, I could see how the Ark could bring the series full circle, as its strong connection to Ravenwood remains one of the unresolved threads in the series. On the other hand, the Ark's disappearance into its dusty, lonely destination is somehow chillingly appropriate in its implied finality. In some respect I would like to see Indy come to a peace about both Marion and his old mentor in the final film, whether it involved the Ark of the Covenant or not.
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Old 10-23-2005, 10:06 AM   #32
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And wouldn't it be tough to do a 'Rescue the Ark' without touching on the whole Right of Return issue? With things still touch & go with Israel, I just don't see it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return

[Jokingly, with all these female casting rumors, I think Indy's gonna find some Amazon Island.]
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Old 10-24-2005, 12:39 PM   #33
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Hey, Joe. Quick question: how would you see this "repatriation" plot working (not the Ark necessarily, but some other relic)?

Given the expectations of Indy doing some "archaeology" (or just avoiding some quasi-implausible booby traps), how would you have him return an already-found artifact? Wouldn’t that preclude the usual ancient secrets and replace them with more contemporary pitfalls?

Do you have a way to accomplish this type of story and hold true to the Indy establishment? Or are you retooling Indy as Mission: Impossible or Ocean’s Eleven?
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Old 10-24-2005, 05:45 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
Hey, Joe. Quick question: how would you see this "repatriation" plot working (not the Ark necessarily, but some other relic)?

Given the expectations of Indy doing some "archaeology" (or just avoiding some quasi-implausible booby traps), how would you have him return an already-found artifact? Wouldn’t that preclude the usual ancient secrets and replace them with more contemporary pitfalls?

Do you have a way to accomplish this type of story and hold true to the Indy establishment? Or are you retooling Indy as Mission: Impossible or Ocean’s Eleven?

I may break off 'repatriation as a theme' into a separate Indy IV thread.

But quickly, I see Indy getting the artifact in the beginning of the film (first 40%) and then the relic changing hands (like the Grail Diary) several times before the ending. Scoring the relic off the bad guy would likely involve some set piece -- except I'd hope it would be more creative than MI or Ocean's 11.

Notably, ToD has a repatriation theme -- getting the stone back to its rightful owners. Today, archaeology is pre-occupied with getting works that were wrongly plundered back to their nation of origin -- so I think it would be a good, timely story. But I'd hate to see some race-against-the-clock-or-the-world-blows-up storyline. Save that for Lara Croft -- but I do think the story should have some consequence if the relic is not restored.

There should be some menace -- other than the competiting human adversary but it shouldn't echo the challenges in LC. Pirates of the Caribbean also had a repatriation story (with ghosts no less) that would've worked just fine for the ending of the Raiders series.

[I'll get this back on-topic and get my Ravenwood post up tonight or tomorrow.]

Last edited by Joe Brody : 10-24-2005 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 10-24-2005, 06:01 PM   #35
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What is Marion is the one who steals the ark to return it, I don't know, maybe to reconnect with her father, or it is her father who is not really dead, and Indy has to go "rescue the ark" hmmm . . .
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Old 10-27-2005, 02:22 PM   #36
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If we run with the idea that Ravenwood isn't deceased, perhaps he, or those in his employ, remove the Ark from its storage in an effort to return it to a sacred site, such as the remnants of the temple mound in Israel. Ravenwood's motive might be to complete a ritual consistent with those performed on the Day of Atonement, perhaps believing that doing so will provide him with the absolution he craves. Jones is contacted to pursue the Ark due to his prior experience with it, and has to unravel the mystery of who has taken it and for what purpose. Were this to take place in the forties/fifties, the fledgling Israeli government could serve as a foil for both sides, interfering in the business of the interlopers on their soil, certain that they are intent on stealing or defacing national sites and treasures.

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Old 10-27-2005, 02:41 PM   #37
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Hmm, I like this, maybe a very dark, almost religous zealot Ravenwood, that has lost all sense of relaity, since he heard about the ark being discoverd etc. . .
Now, all we have to do is figure out how Jar-Jar is involved, George?
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Old 10-27-2005, 03:16 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paden
If we run with the idea that Ravenwood isn't deceased, perhaps he, or those in his employ, remove the Ark from its storage in an effort to return it to a sacred site, such as the remnants of the temple mound in Israel. Ravenwood's motive might be to complete a ritual consistent with those performed on the Day of Atonement, perhaps believing that doing so will provide him with the absolution he craves. Jones is contacted to pursue the Ark due to his prior experience with it, and has to unravel the mystery of who has taken it and for what purpose. Were this to take place in the forties/fifties, the fledgling Israeli government could serve as a foil for both sides, interfering in the business of the interlopers on their soil, certain that they are intent on stealing or defacing national sites and treasures.


That's the single best Treatment that I've seen for an Indy IV. Except I wouldn't have Jones 'contacted to pursue the Ark'. Instead I'd have him haunted/tormented by a ghoulish Belloq -- which signals to Indy that someone is tampering with the Ark. Paden, you cracked the Israel dilemma nicely.
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Old 10-27-2005, 03:25 PM   #39
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I don;t know if we want Indy haunted, but the need for him to act would have to be to save a possed Abner, the last movie he became reaquinted with his estranged father, this could be his reaquaitnce with his estrange mentor, we can call it

Indiana Jones, The Last Crusade, we mean it this time!

Come on Joe, i had the idea first . . .
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Old 10-27-2005, 04:23 PM   #40
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Here's my question: If Abner's alive, (and was in 1936) why didn't he involve himself in the proceedings of Raiders? The man had deep knowledge of Egypt and numerous connections there, I'm sure. So with the discovery of Tanis (which wasn't kept quiet, what with "every digger in Cairo" being there), if Ravenwood had still wanted the Ark, don't you think he would have turned up down there?

Perhaps he did go there, only to be too late. Or perhaps he no longer cared about the Ark... Once again, I think Abner's motives are paramount here.
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Old 10-27-2005, 04:39 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
Here's my question: If Abner's alive, (and was in 1936) why didn't he involve himself in the proceedings of Raiders?

[Questioningly]Because Abner's other all-consuming passion was Shangri-La? Which I'm guessing he found and that's where he spent the 40's?
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Old 10-27-2005, 05:18 PM   #42
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Yeah, the supposed Ark/Nepal connection... That has ALWAYS bugged me. I've never heard of a plausible connection linking the two.

An earlier draft of the Raiders script made it sound like he was actively pursuing something related to the Ark there in Nepal, and was lost in an avalanche. but without that solid connection on-screen, you could posit that Abner had moved onto some other project (Shangri-la perhaps? ).
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Old 10-27-2005, 05:40 PM   #43
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If Ravenwood's quest for the Ark was, in actuality, a quest for some kind of inner peace, I think it's plausible that he could have encountered something in the Himalayan wilderness that, when coupled with years of being unable to finally lay hands on the "prize", could have steered Ravenwood in a new direction, pursuing something else that he believed could satisfy his soul. Or alternatively, he could have become an embittered hermit following a brush with death in Nepal, convinced that the Ark was unattainable and wanting nothing more to do with the world. If he was isolated, or embroiled in another quest, perhaps some time could have passed before he came to know that Jones had located the Ark. And, given that it was hidden away by the U.S. government, it could take several more years to locate it once again.

EDIT: The haunting by Belloq is an interesting idea and it really makes sense. Although Belloq certainly didn't care for Jones, his words to him in the Cairo saloon indicate that he had respect for him as a competitor. If the Ark were disturbed, Jones would be the one Belloq's tormented soul would seek out, recognizing that Jones respected the Ark's power and was the only one skillful enough to retrieve it a second time.

Last edited by Paden : 10-27-2005 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 10-27-2005, 09:37 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paden
The haunting by Belloq is an interesting idea and it really makes sense. Although Belloq certainly didn't care for Jones, his words to him in the Cairo saloon indicate that he had respect for him as a competitor. If the Ark were disturbed, Jones would be the one Belloq's tormented soul would seek out, recognizing that Jones respected the Ark's power and was the only one skillful enough to retrieve it a second time.

Twisted Belloq would actually blame Indiana Jones for his tortured afterlife.
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Old 10-27-2005, 11:03 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundshort
Come on Joe, i had the idea first . . .

roundshort, I hear you -- but Ark related stories have been kicked around for some time here. I just like the way Paden handled Ravenwood and the Israel issue -- which would be treat the Isreali's as wildcards who meddle with both sides (interesting that Spielberg is doing the Munich film which purportedly doesn't shy away from Israel's more, shall we say ambiguous actions).
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Old 10-10-2006, 01:01 PM   #46
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bump

For all of those who can not find any intelegent subject here at the Raven bar here is a treat.
Once again. Well said Paden.
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Old 10-10-2006, 01:27 PM   #47
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A treat for certain.... but a year old treat.

It might stand better as an example how this place has slumped of late.
(If indeed you agree at all that it has slumped)
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Old 10-16-2007, 03:14 PM   #48
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Abner Ravenwood in Last Crusade

Just saw this on Wikipedia (so take it for what it's worth): "Although Abner Ravenwood (Marion's father) is never shown in any of the films, the prologue of an early draft of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade denotes the man in the Fedora hat as Abner."

Anyone know if this is true?
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Old 10-16-2007, 03:19 PM   #49
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Yeah, that's always seemed to be true, although not really all that sensible, to my way of thinking.
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:07 PM   #50
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There was a thread about this in the archives here... Not bothered to link it now.

But yeah, I did find that interesting but I don't think in the final film it is Abner. Plus a bit weird if Indy went around dressing up like Marion's father. Lucas and Spielberg have used left-overs from the previous films before, so I guess that's where the speculation that Abner is in KOTCS.
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