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Old 11-07-2009, 11:14 PM   #26
dr.jones1986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Sound great, dr.jones1986! I've never been to the mid-south or the deep interior of the U.S. The closest I've been was a visit to Red Rock Canyon during a trip to Las Vegas. It was beautiful! One of my aunts was born & raised in Arizona and is very well-versed and passionate about the Navajo and their culture/history.

Grey Cloud is a great character and it's too bad we don't know much about him. Using the Wyoming location and the line, "the most sacred relic of my people's past", we can narrow it down to him being either Cheyenne, Crow, Shoshone or Arahapo. Yes? No?

For any Native American experts out there: Are there any tell-tale signs that give a clue as to which tribe he belongs to?

P.S. "Little Big Man" is one of my favourite movies.

The great thing about Grey Cloud is he really fits into the whole Indy is a "man of the world" character trait. In the movies we always see him with trusty local guides who he has been friends with for years such as Sallah and Wu Han...Grey Cloud fits that bill.

As for his tribal origin, I was thinking Cheyenne, Crow or Shoshone. I know those are two big tribes in Wyoming where the episode takes place.
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Old 11-09-2009, 03:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insomniac
Medicine or maybe something for the pipe?
Heh heh, it could be peyote (but that only grows in the south).
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnieJones
Then the dates that Indiana Jones Wiki and The Ultimate Guide gave are(again)incorrect.The date they gave was 1919.Thanks for the help Stoo!
Actually, the vision quest is hard to pinpoint because of the differences between the books and the TV show so it could be either 1916 or 1919. To be fair, Ultimate Guide tried to fit it in where they thought best. Same with me.

Peril at Delphi (written before the "Chronicles") says that the 2nd meeting with Changing Man was after Indy's graduation when he went to work on his uncle's farm. Will have to check but I think the book may only give the location as "southwest" without mentioning which state.

Ultimate Guide says: "December 1919, Indy goes on a vision quest in New Mexico with a Navajo medicine man."

Since we know that Indy has an uncle & aunt in New Mexico, I've always imagined the vision quest to be in 1916 around the time of events in "Curse of the Jackal/Spring Break Adventure". UG uses similar logic but moves it forward to 1919 which is possible but it brings us back to the question: When and how did Indy start university without finishing high school?
Quote:
Originally Posted by metalinvader
Also,Let's not forget Indy's America Indian guide from that SW crossover.Granted I know the story isn't 'EU Canon" but anyone think it could have been Grey Cloud?
Upon first hearing about it, I was hoping it could be him but after seeing it, I thought "no" because of the setting and the character's age. It's definitely in northwest whereas Grey Cloud is most likely from the mid-west and the character looks much too young. (How old does Short Round look to you? To me, he could be anywhere from 15-25.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
As for his tribal origin, I was thinking Cheyenne, Crow or Shoshone. I know those are two big tribes in Wyoming where the episode takes place.
Thanks for chiming in on that, dr.jones1986. Agreed, Grey Cloud fits the WuHan/Sallah bill. I want him to be Crow and I think I've got a case to support my theory.
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Actually, the vision quest is hard to pinpoint because of the differences between the books and the TV show so it could be either 1916 or 1919. To be fair, Ultimate Guide tried to fit it in where they thought best. Same with me.

Peril at Delphi (written before the "Chronicles") says that the 2nd meeting with Changing Man was after Indy's graduation when he went to work on his uncle's farm. Will have to check but I think the book may only give the location as "southwest" without mentioning which state.

Ultimate Guide says: "December 1919, Indy goes on a vision quest in New Mexico with a Navajo medicine man."

Since we know that Indy has an uncle & aunt in New Mexico, I've always imagined the vision quest to be in 1916 around the time of events in "Curse of the Jackal/Spring Break Adventure". UG uses similar logic but moves it forward to 1919 which is possible but it brings us back to the question: When and how did Indy start university without finishing high school?

Yeah, the UG fixes down New Mexico, PaD only says southwest, just bear in mind Indy also has an farmer uncle Pete.

Going by the non-contradictory information, PaD does state he finished high school in Chicago, albeit not how. Keeper of the Indycron Chee has it that it's University of Chicago education is from 1920 -22 so there is some wiggle room of almost a year.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:38 AM   #29
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Stoo, you never gave us your reason you believe he is from Canada. Im very curious now...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Heh heh, it could be peyote (but that only grows in the south).
Actually, the vision quest is hard to pinpoint because of the differences between the books and the TV show so it could be either 1916 or 1919. To be fair, Ultimate Guide tried to fit it in where they thought best. Same with me.

Peril at Delphi (written before the "Chronicles") says that the 2nd meeting with Changing Man was after Indy's graduation when he went to work on his uncle's farm. Will have to check but I think the book may only give the location as "southwest" without mentioning which state.

Ultimate Guide says: "December 1919, Indy goes on a vision quest in New Mexico with a Navajo medicine man."

Since we know that Indy has an uncle & aunt in New Mexico, I've always imagined the vision quest to be in 1916 around the time of events in "Curse of the Jackal/Spring Break Adventure". UG uses similar logic but moves it forward to 1919 which is possible but it brings us back to the question: When and how did Indy start university without finishing high school?
Upon first hearing about it, I was hoping it could be him but after seeing it, I thought "no" because of the setting and the character's age. It's definitely in northwest whereas Grey Cloud is most likely from the mid-west and the character looks much too young. (How old does Short Round look to you? To me, he could be anywhere from 15-25.)
Thanks for chiming in on that, dr.jones1986. Agreed, Grey Cloud fits the WuHan/Sallah bill. I want him to be Crow and I think I've got a case to support my theory.
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Old 11-12-2009, 02:30 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Che
Yeah, the UG fixes down New Mexico, PaD only says southwest, just bear in mind Indy also has an farmer uncle Pete.
Thanks for confirming, Lao Che. Regarding Uncle Pete's farm, I've always imagined him to be a brother of Anna in Virginia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Che
Going by the non-contradictory information, PaD does state he finished high school in Chicago, albeit not how. Keeper of the Indycron Chee has it that it's University of Chicago education is from 1920 -22 so there is some wiggle room of almost a year.
The thing with Mr. Chee is though, I don't agree with some of his answers/reasoning. We have a thread on the subject of Indy's schooling and it definitely comes into play with the 1916 vs. 1919 Changing Man thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
Stoo, you never gave us your reason you believe he is from Canada. Im very curious now...
Just to be clear, I'm don't know if he is *from* Canada but am 99.9% sure that he *lives* there in 1950. (Hint: it has to do with the truck rather than Grey Cloud's costume or pipe.) I'll prepare a photo analysis for illustration purposes.

Last edited by Stoo : 11-12-2009 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:19 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Thanks for confirming, Lao Che. Regarding Uncle Pete's farm, I've always imagined him to be a brother of Anna in Virginia.
The thing with Mr. Chee is though, I don't agree with some of his answers/reasoning. We have a thread on the subject of Indy's schooling and it definitely comes into play with the 1916 vs. 1919 Changing Man thing.

Oh I don't agree with everything he does either, but he does give an official answer.

I assumed Pete to be Anna's brother aswell but I also assumed Grace was Henry's sister then the Lost Journal happened.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:48 PM   #32
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Here's my reason for believing that Grey Cloud lives in Alberta, Canada and is, possibly, a Crow. The attention to detail with regards to the license plates in the Indy films ("Crusade" and "Skull", specifically, since I haven't checked out the other 2) is always spot-on and I don't believe it's any different for Young Indy either.

This is only shot in "Blues" where you can see the truck's plate before it gets covered in snow. I checked the 1950 license plates from ALL 50 states and it didn't resemble any of them but it is a PERFECT MATCH to 1950 Alberta! (As usual in the Indy movies, the bad guys have period New York plates.)

The truck also has a rifle rack in the cab behind Indy and Grey Cloud which is a clue that the vehicle belongs to GC and Indy is at the wheel simply because he's the better driver. (For some reason, that's the impression I got when it first aired but was never sure.) What do y'all think?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Che
Oh I don't agree with everything he does either, but he does give an official answer.
Concerning Anna's cause of death, I think I'll go with what Indy says and not Mr. Chee.
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:32 PM   #33
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It's threads like this that make me sad because I do not have the Young Indy DVDS, nor have I seen any of them.
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:51 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Concerning Anna's cause of death, I think I'll go with what Indy says and not Mr. Chee.

What? Both flu and scarlet fever?
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Old 11-13-2009, 11:12 PM   #35
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good eye Stoo, and Alberta is not that far away from Wyoming where the episode takes place. New York however is quite a hike from Wyoming so that was kind of a strange license plate choice.
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Old 11-14-2009, 03:53 PM   #36
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I wonder where it was actually filmed. They had to find a place with a lot of snow for the story. Also, I found it kinda funny when Indy got out of the crashed truck and had his whip attached to his hip but unfortuneately he didn't have his pistol when he needed it against those guys in the cabin. But still with Indy, it worked out good in the end.
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Old 11-14-2009, 04:26 PM   #37
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here are some nice paintings by the famous Native American artist Howard Terpning I found with peace pipes in them:

http://www.artcountrycanada.com/imag...%20legends.jpg

http://www.artcountrycanada.com/imag...20ceremony.jpg

http://www.artcountrycanada.com/imag...e%20holder.jpg

http://www.artcountrycanada.com/imag...ine%20pipe.jpg

http://www.artcountrycanada.com/imag...f%20wisdom.jpg
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Old 11-16-2009, 08:37 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by indyartist
I wonder where it was actually filmed. They had to find a place with a lot of snow for the story...

If I remember correctly, it was filmed on Harrison's property in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
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Old 11-16-2009, 02:00 PM   #39
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Ooo! I love these paintings! Thanks for putting these up!
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Old 11-16-2009, 04:57 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Che
What? Both flu and scarlet fever?
With what SPF-as-Indy says. The death of Anna Jones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by indyartist
but unfortuneately he didn't have his pistol when he needed it against those guys in the cabin.
If you watch closely, you can see Indy has his holster during the snowstorm...then it disappears (along with another piece of gear!)

Bill, thanks for posting those links to the paintings. They are absolutely beautiful. Some of them remind of N.C. Wyeth (one of my faves)! I'm sure your familiar with his stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior Jones
If I remember correctly, it was filmed on Harrison's property in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
Yeah, I've got some making-of footage that I'll have to dig out and post in one of the "Mystery of the Blues" threads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.jones1986
good eye Stoo, and Alberta is not that far away from Wyoming where the episode takes place. New York however is quite a hike from Wyoming so that was kind of a strange license plate choice.
Thanks, '86. New York is indeed far but this gives a clue as to the lengths the villains were willing to travel within the unknown backstory of the chase for the pipe! Anyone other opinions on the possible Grey Cloud/Alberta connection?
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Old 06-11-2010, 07:47 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
With what SPF-as-Indy says. The death of Anna Jones?
If you watch closely, you can see Indy has his holster during the snowstorm...then it disappears (along with another piece of gear!)

Bill, thanks for posting those links to the paintings. They are absolutely beautiful. Some of them remind of N.C. Wyeth (one of my faves)! I'm sure your familiar with his stuff.
Yeah, I've got some making-of footage that I'll have to dig out and post in one of the "Mystery of the Blues" threads.
Thanks, '86. New York is indeed far but this gives a clue as to the lengths the villains were willing to travel within the unknown backstory of the chase for the pipe! Anyone other opinions on the possible Grey Cloud/Alberta connection?

If you look close, he doesn't have his gun in the holster--it actually looks like a walkie talkie.
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Old 06-12-2010, 02:53 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
If you look close, he doesn't have his gun in the holster--it actually looks like a walkie talkie.

That discussion, with photos, is here:

http://raven.theraider.net/showthrea...t=11710&page=3
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Old 07-15-2018, 06:19 AM   #43
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I so wish that the adventure with Grey Cloud could be expanded on somehow, like into a comic or something, that shows the whole thing. Even though he has limited screen time I actually like Grey Cloud the best out of Indy's companions/allies (including Sallah and Mac). The actor did a great job and gave a pretty obscure character gravitas. The whole snowbound early 50s setting in Wyoming somehow feels exotic even though Indy is in the heart of the States. Something about it (perhaps the Native connection?) reminds me of the Utah, 1912 segment from LC. I actually wish Indy could have a full adventure which he Native religion at its core. It would be something new.
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Old 07-15-2018, 06:35 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Here's my reason for believing that Grey Cloud lives in Alberta, Canada and is, possibly, a Crow. The attention to detail with regards to the license plates in the Indy films ("Crusade" and "Skull", specifically, since I haven't checked out the other 2) is always spot-on and I don't believe it's any different for Young Indy either.

This is only shot in "Blues" where you can see the truck's plate before it gets covered in snow. I checked the 1950 license plates from ALL 50 states and it didn't resemble any of them but it is a PERFECT MATCH to 1950 Alberta! (As usual in the Indy movies, the bad guys have period New York plates.)

The truck also has a rifle rack in the cab behind Indy and Grey Cloud which is a clue that the vehicle belongs to GC and Indy is at the wheel simply because he's the better driver. (For some reason, that's the impression I got when it first aired but was never sure.) What do y'all think?




Concerning Anna's cause of death, I think I'll go with what Indy says and not Mr. Chee.

Couldn't it also be that Indy simply swiped the car at some point during a quick getaway? Given the presence of Indy's beard I see this adventure as taking a big longer than usually and perhaps he and Grey Cloud travelled a fair distance before ending up in Wyoming. I also wonder what the nature of the bad guy is - is he simply an unscrupulous collector of Native artifacts? A gangster?
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Old 07-15-2018, 07:37 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Couldn't it also be that Indy simply swiped the car at some point during a quick getaway? Given the presence of Indy's beard I see this adventure as taking a big longer than usually and perhaps he and Grey Cloud travelled a fair distance before ending up in Wyoming. I also wonder what the nature of the bad guy is - is he simply an unscrupulous collector of Native artifacts? A gangster?
Both options are completely possible, and the good thing is that they're at least somewhat compatible to each other, but it's probably more likely that Indy boarded Grey Cloud's car back in Canada. As for the unnamed baddie in the episode playing a Toht expy, he probably is some sort of antiquities dealer with connections to local mobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I so wish that the adventure with Grey Cloud could be expanded on somehow, like into a comic or something, that shows the whole thing. Even though he has limited screen time I actually like Grey Cloud the best out of Indy's companions/allies (including Sallah and Mac). The actor did a great job and gave a pretty obscure character gravitas. The whole snowbound early 50s setting in Wyoming somehow feels exotic even though Indy is in the heart of the States. Something about it (perhaps the Native connection?) reminds me of the Utah, 1912 segment from LC. I actually wish Indy could have a full adventure which he Native religion at its core. It would be something new.
Completely agree. Saginaw Grant brought a believability to his character that reminded me a bit of John Rhys-Davies' portrayal of Sallah, and it would've been great to see an expansion of those bookends (imagine if they had made a TV movie back then for it). I think Indy dealing with Native American culture would be great for a lot of stories in the expanded universe, especially if he traveled with Grey Cloud.
Edit: Also, Stoo, great work on matching the plates to their locations/issue dates.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:00 AM   #46
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By the way, do we think the adventure takes place in early 1950 (IE January - March 50) or toward the end of the year (like Nov - Dec 1950)?
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Old 07-17-2018, 03:20 AM   #47
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Dig More Clues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Couldn't it also be that Indy simply swiped the car at some point during a quick getaway? Given the presence of Indy's beard I see this adventure as taking a big longer than usually and perhaps he and Grey Cloud travelled a fair distance before ending up in Wyoming.
That's less 'simple'. What you're suggesting is either:

A) They crossed the U.S. border in a stolen truck.
B) They stole ("Crusade"-style) a Canadian truck that happened to be in Wyoming at the time.

My belief is that this was Grey Cloud's truck and he did all the driving up until the "getaway" because that appears to be the first time he saw Indy behind the wheel. The indicator is in this exchange:

Grey Cloud: Good driving!
Indy: It's not my first time, y'know.

Why would Indy say that if they'd been travelling around together for a lengthy amount of time? Surely, Indy would've already done some driving in some other vehicle that didn't belong to Grey Cloud. (He could mean that it wasn't his first time in a car chase but that's not the way I interpret it.)

As for your beard theory? No, because his hair is even longer. Take it as just Indy's look at the time. In my mind, this adventure was brief. Otherwise, we'd be down to this:

Indiana: Cloudy, where's my razor?
Grey Cloud: You keep asking me that, Dr. Jones! Buy a new one!
Indiana: Not enough time. We need to get that pipe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFirebird1
Stoo, great work on matching the plates to their locations/issue dates.
Thanks, Firebird. See below for more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
By the way, do we think the adventure takes place in early 1950 (IE January - March 50) or toward the end of the year (like Nov - Dec 1950)?
Based on the Alberta license plate, it's between January - March 1950. As you can see from this photo, their plates expired on 31 March of each year. By winter late 1950, it would've been a different colour scheme. (As a wee lad, I remember a similar system in early '70s Quebec.)

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Old 07-19-2018, 12:39 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
That's less 'simple'. What you're suggesting is either:

A) They crossed the U.S. border in a stolen truck.
B) They stole ("Crusade"-style) a Canadian truck that happened to be in Wyoming at the time.

My belief is that this was Grey Cloud's truck and he did all the driving up until the "getaway" because that appears to be the first time he saw Indy behind the wheel. The indicator is in this exchange:

Grey Cloud: Good driving!
Indy: It's not my first time, y'know.

Why would Indy say that if they'd been travelling around together for a lengthy amount of time? Surely, Indy would've already done some driving in some other vehicle that didn't belong to Grey Cloud. (He could mean that it wasn't his first time in a car chase but that's not the way I interpret it.)

As for your beard theory? No, because his hair is even longer. Take it as just Indy's look at the time. In my mind, this adventure was brief. Otherwise, we'd be down to this:

Indiana: Cloudy, where's my razor?
Grey Cloud: You keep asking me that, Dr. Jones! Buy a new one!
Indiana: Not enough time. We need to get that pipe.

Thanks, Firebird. See below for more.

Based on the Alberta license plate, it's between January - March 1950. As you can see from this photo, their plates expired on 31 March of each year. By winter late 1950, it would've been a different colour scheme. (As a wee lad, I remember a similar system in early '70s Quebec.)


Good eyes old friend, and I agree with your conclusions. I actually wish we had gotten more early 50s Indy adventures. I like his longer hair and beard look; it makes him look more like a grizzled old adventurer, more of a rogue.

By the by, do you have any idea why MotB is not included in the Amazon Prime streaming version of the show? It is the only episode missing.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:07 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
That's less 'simple'. What you're suggesting is either:

A) They crossed the U.S. border in a stolen truck.
B) They stole ("Crusade"-style) a Canadian truck that happened to be in Wyoming at the time.

My belief is that this was Grey Cloud's truck and he did all the driving up until the "getaway" because that appears to be the first time he saw Indy behind the wheel. The indicator is in this exchange:

Grey Cloud: Good driving!
Indy: It's not my first time, y'know.

Why would Indy say that if they'd been travelling around together for a lengthy amount of time? Surely, Indy would've already done some driving in some other vehicle that didn't belong to Grey Cloud. (He could mean that it wasn't his first time in a car chase but that's not the way I interpret it.)

As for your beard theory? No, because his hair is even longer. Take it as just Indy's look at the time. In my mind, this adventure was brief. Otherwise, we'd be down to this:

Indiana: Cloudy, where's my razor?
Grey Cloud: You keep asking me that, Dr. Jones! Buy a new one!
Indiana: Not enough time. We need to get that pipe.

Thanks, Firebird. See below for more.

Based on the Alberta license plate, it's between January - March 1950. As you can see from this photo, their plates expired on 31 March of each year. By winter late 1950, it would've been a different colour scheme. (As a wee lad, I remember a similar system in early '70s Quebec.)

First off, that's fantastic detective work, Stoo! . Second, I agree with your conclusions completely. As for when it's set, the heavy snow would probably suggest early-to-mid February (when winter is usually the harshest here in the States).
And Raiders, I agree. It'd be cool to see Indy having some more adventures in the late forties-early fifties (maybe even a final saga with his father).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
By the by, do you have any idea why MotB is not included in the Amazon Prime streaming version of the show? It is the only episode missing.
Noticed this too. Perhaps unforeseen copyright issues are to be blamed, but that seems like a stretch. I'd attribute it more to human error.

Last edited by TheFirebird1 : 07-19-2018 at 01:13 PM.
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