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Old 06-22-2011, 10:20 PM   #1
Kooshmeister
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Am I alone in hoping there's no Nazis?

As much as I loved the Nazi bad guys in Raiders and Last Crusade, I don't want them to appear again. I really, really don't want the villains in this one to be a bunch of escaped Nazis trying to start a Fourth Reich or somesuch nonsense. I have the following reasons:

1. I do not I like the very pop-culture notion that Indiana's enemies have to be Nazis or else it isn't an Indiana Jones movie. This is the basis for my main fear of why Spielberg may cave despite his post-Shindler's List policy of depicting Nazis seriously; moviegoers demanding more Indy punching Nazis (or Indy-punching Nazis, as the case may be).

2. It's been done. In addition to two movies, practically every novel, game and comic book has had Nazis, Nazis, Nazis, to the point where I'm fairly certain Indy has taken on the entire army of Nazi Germany by this point. But I worry the failure of the Nazi-less Crystal Skull will make Spielberg and Lucas return to the Nazi well like they did with Last Crusade after people hated Temple of Doom.

3. There's just been enough of them already, and they're all already dead. Honestly if you want to have a Nazi villain it has to be a new one due to the fact they almost always, always die in the one story they're featured in.

Because of this, I feel the Nazi well has been tapped dry. So no Nazis please.

Last edited by Kooshmeister : 06-22-2011 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 06-22-2011, 11:17 PM   #2
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I agree, no more Nazis, but my one and only reason is simple- they've already been done. So let's move on and do something else. Although, I do agree that the Nazis being the enemy works really well in the Indiana Jones series.
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Old 06-22-2011, 11:27 PM   #3
Henry W Jones
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I don't see them using Nazi's in the late 50's. I wouldn't worry too much about that. It doesn't fit the time line.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:19 AM   #4
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The 1957 Communists were a stand in for Nazis, but only because they made more historical sense. It's just a tag for a villainous enemy regime.

In fact, having the boys from Brazil, and the girls from Bolivia would be relief from yet another group of uniformed villians (as a potential next movie could have Mao's Communists).

In all seriousness we only saw one real Nazi unit in the Indy movies: Vogel's LAHSS. Other than that it was just Toht, and the few Gestapo in both ROTLA and TLC. For the '30s the German war machine was an obvious choice, as were the Russians in the '50s.

However, there is always the Temple of Doom option: a cult inhabiting a place far away from ordered and protected civilization.
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Old 06-23-2011, 02:55 AM   #5
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I think this is one of the reasons why an older Indy, set in the 1950's, is constrained by its own design. WWII Germany Military/Nazi's are cinematic shorthand for 'villains'. Historically, Nazi's work as great baddies because there is a universal understanding of what they represented i.e. the personification of institutional evil. Film makers have found it easy to use this association to create largely 2-dimensional (but cinematically effective) villains (similar to how Native Americans were used in early Hollywood cinema). I mean, what other military regime/nationality would cinema goers happily see being blown to smithereens?

It is however, understandably, not as politically correct to depict Russian Soldiers as 'evil'. Therefore any intended automatic sense of villainy doesn't translate as effectively as Nazi's once did... and it isn't as politically correct seeing Russians blasted into oblivion (IMHO). Ultimately I personally felt that although the Russians were the obvious villains in KOTCS, they didn't have the nefarious resonance of the Germans from Raiders or TLC (largely because they weren't depicted in the same evil way).
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:21 AM   #6
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Didn't Russia or parts of it anyway get really mad about KOTCS and ban it, because it depicted "untrue things" that the Russians did? I don't know, maybe that was something else...
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:37 AM   #7
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No, you're not.

I knew one person who thought all Indiana Jones films needed to have Nazis. I never understood this train of thought. There's just too many good possibilities out there than to just rely on Nazis(besides, I never thought they were really threatening in Last Crusade as they were in Raiders).
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Old 06-23-2011, 07:27 AM   #8
Montana Smith
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
It is however, understandably, not as politically correct to depict Russian Soldiers as 'evil'. Therefore any intended automatic sense of villainy doesn't translate as effectively as Nazi's once did... and it isn't as politically correct seeing Russians blasted into oblivion (IMHO).

Stalin was slaughtering many years before Hitler jumped on the dictatorship wagon. I see the German soldiers in ROTLA as similar to the lot of many Russian soldiers: not as villains, but rather pawns in a game beyond their control. After all, Stalin had a novel method of clearing enemy minefields. Force solders to march across it arm in arm, singing, while commissars stand back at a safe distance ready to shoot 'deserters'.

The 'Nazi' tag is so overused, that it no longer applies to the 1933-1945 era, but to all the individuals employed during it. For movie-makers and writers that "automatic sense of villainy" becomes a short-hand get-out clause, which permits a 'hero' to commit murder.

For me, however, that gives Indy's character more depth. He's morally compromised and more interesting for it.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:51 AM   #9
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I wouldn't mind seeing and opening scene where he comes across a Nazi hiding in Argentina...

Reference some films other than their own...
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:01 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Stalin was slaughtering many years before Hitler jumped on the dictatorship wagon. I see the German soldiers in ROTLA as similar to the lot of many Russian soldiers: not as villains, but rather pawns in a game beyond their control. After all, Stalin had a novel method of clearing enemy minefields. Force solders to march across it arm in arm, singing, while commissars stand back at a safe distance ready to shoot 'deserters'.

The 'Nazi' tag is so overused, that it no longer applies to the 1933-1945 era, but to all the individuals employed during it. For movie-makers and writers that "automatic sense of villainy" becomes a short-hand get-out clause, which permits a 'hero' to commit murder.

For me, however, that gives Indy's character more depth. He's morally compromised and more interesting for it.

Of course agreed... it doesn't really matter what the historical/factual truth may be, but how audiences perceive and respond to it. One could easily argue that the way Spielberg et al have portrayed Nazi's/Gestapo/SS, in those earlier movies, actually undermines the reality/horror of what that regime actually did... and you are spot on, using Nazi's in the context of an action movie just gives the hero carte blanche to maim and murder without question (certainly in the context of Indy movies). Still, they make for great bloody movie villains (even if a somewhat overused and cheap trick).
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:10 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
I wouldn't mind seeing and opening scene where he comes across a Nazi hiding in Argentina...

Reference some films other than their own...

It would have to be Otto Skorzeny, a man whose life almost rivaled Indy's for far-fetched adventure!

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Old 06-23-2011, 10:19 AM   #12
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Was Spielberg ever quoted to not use Nazis again in an Indy movie or just KOTCS?

I'm on board as to whatever makes for a more compelling movie, regardless if it's been tapped dry.
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Old 06-23-2011, 02:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by INCUBUSRATM
Didn't Russia or parts of it anyway get really mad about KOTCS and ban it, because it depicted "untrue things" that the Russians did? I don't know, maybe that was something else...


Ya, I remember this also.... I dont think KOTCS was realeased there at all due to this. Indy's world wide box office would have been even bigger if it didnt have Communists and was released there. I bet it would have hit 1 billlion or very close to it.
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Old 06-23-2011, 02:26 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Rivers
Ya, I remember this also.... I dont think KOTCS was realeased there at all due to this. Indy's world wide box office would have been even bigger if it didnt have Communists and was released there. I bet it would have hit 1 billlion or very close to it.

KOTCS was released in Russia.

And, no, the Russian market does not generate in excess of $200 million in box office!
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:16 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
KOTCS was released in Russia.

And, no, the Russian market does not generate in excess of $200 million in box office!

Yeah, I wasn't sure that it did in fact occur, but I know it happened to a movie due to its content concerning Russian history. Maybe it didn't happen to KOTCS but was talked about that it could happen? But good to know our Russian friends got to experience it, too!
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Old 06-24-2011, 01:26 AM   #16
Montana Smith
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
Of course agreed... it doesn't really matter what the historical/factual truth may be, but how audiences perceive and respond to it. One could easily argue that the way Spielberg et al have portrayed Nazi's/Gestapo/SS, in those earlier movies, actually undermines the reality/horror of what that regime actually did... and you are spot on, using Nazi's in the context of an action movie just gives the hero carte blanche to maim and murder without question (certainly in the context of Indy movies). Still, they make for great bloody movie villains (even if a somewhat overused and cheap trick).

I missed this post yesterday while responding to Rocket, Darth. I'm with you on all those points.

The only real menacing Nazi was Toht. In TLC, while we do get an SS unit, it's lead by a man who fits Dietrich's description from Campbell Black's ROTLA novelization of the "black suited clowns". Vogel cavorts around in his parade uniform, camping up the role. This was very much like the real thing, when you see some of the film from the time or read accounts. In his favour, Vogel was a veteran of the last war, but so many played dress-up without any military experience, passing orders to send millions to their deaths. Himmler would be the greatest example of that.

In terms of Indy villains it looks like the time has passed for the truly evil. We had Toht and Mola Ram, and then a softening with TLC and KOTCS.

One good inclusion in TLC was Elsa's divided conscience. She wasn't a Nazi, but she knew that they offered a route to the Grail. Allying herself with their cause, even superficially for her own ends was an expression of those who acquiesed between 1933-1945, seeing personal fortunes over the greater picture. It's a human condition, and will arise in any place where a figurehead with absolute power prevails.

However, with Indiana Jones moving forward in time, the only room for Nazis now lies with those who escaped in 1945. Either the real escapes to places such as South America, or the fictional ones to 'that fortress' in Antarctica. I don't think Spielberg would want to tackle the first, with unavoidable links to Simon Wiesenthal's mission. And to go the fantasy route to the icy south would either bring back UFOs (which seem to get attached to that idea), or recreate some James Bond lair.

There's also little in the way of archeaology down there. Unless, Indy uncovers the Predator's Xenomorph breeding program complex...
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Old 06-24-2011, 02:00 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
KOTCS was released in Russia.

And, no, the Russian market does not generate in excess of $200 million in box office!



Yes... You are correct.... I stand corrected.... It made 16.8 million in Russia. But I too remember reading an artical where some county refused to relase it. Any one remember which one??
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Old 06-24-2011, 02:36 AM   #18
Montana Smith
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Yes... You are correct.... I stand corrected.... It made 16.8 million in Russia. But I too remember reading an artical where some county refused to relase it. Any one remember which one??

The Communist Party called for it to be banned:

Quote:
The Communist Party of the Russian Federation called for the film to be banned, accusing the production team of demonizing the Soviet Union. Party official Andrei Andreyev said: "It is very disturbing if talented directors want to provoke a new Cold War."[135] Another party official commented, "(I)n 1957 the USSR was not sending terrorists to America but sending the Sputnik satellite into space!"[136] Spielberg responded that he is not unfamiliar with Russia. He explained: "When we decided the fourth installment would take place in 1957, we had no choice but to make the Russians the enemies. World War II had just ended and the Cold War had begun. The U.S. didn't have any other enemies at the time."[137] The film's depiction of Peru also received criticism from the Peruvian and Spanish-speaking public.[138][139]

135. "Indiana angers Russian communists". BBC News Online. 2008-05-24. Retrieved 2008-05-25.

136. "Indiana Jones and the Propaganda Machine". Russia Today. 2008-05-23. Retrieved 2008-05-26.

137. "Steven Spielberg: "I'm Russian. But that doesn't explain a thing."". Komsomolskaya Pravda. 2008-05-24. Retrieved 2008-05-26.

138. "Califican en Perú de ofensivos errores en Indiana Jones". El Universal. 2008-05-30. Retrieved 2008-05-26.

139. http://www.filmaffinity.com/es/reviews2/1/301570.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana..._Crystal_Skull
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Old 06-24-2011, 03:37 AM   #19
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LOL... I was just Googling this. Sounds like most of Russia actually enjoyed the film!!
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Old 06-24-2011, 03:44 AM   #20
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That's it! The Communist party called for it to be banned... Thanks for clearing that up!

If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that everything is going to upset somebody.
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Old 06-24-2011, 01:44 PM   #21
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I wouldn't particularly want Nazis in the movie either. I think it limits Indy too much to keep recycling the same enemies. In fact, I'd prefer that he didn't go up against ANY kind of political enemy.

However, IF George and Steven felt like they really wanted to include nazis one last time, it might be kind of interesting to open the movie during WWII, when Indy was working for the CIA. A younger Indy could be done through either a good make-up job on Harrison, or possibly some CGI wizardry (which I know the purists would hate.)
Anyway, in this opening adventure, Indy could be trying to sneak into one of Hitler's strongholds during the war to recover some military plans. As he's doing this, he comes across an interesting painting that he thinks might be good for the museum, so he steals that, too. Then we get a daring escape from the stronghold, with Nazis hot on his trail. Of course he makes it out alive with the stolen art, and that ends the opening adventure.

The main part of the movie then takes place fifteen or so years later. Somebody at the museum has analyzed the stolen artwork and realized that Hitler himself had painted them (since Hitler was an artist, this would be believable.) But what makes this painting particularly interesting is that there seems to be some kind of code or map hidden in the painting. Indy is called upon to examine it more closely, and to make a long story short, it turns out that Hitler was close to finding Atlantis, and had hidden clues to its location in his artwork (since Hitler actually did want to find Atlantis, this too would be somewhat believable.)

I haven't quite figured out yet what the conflict would be-- for example, why would Indy need to find Atlantis, who else would be trying to find it, etc, etc. But I think this would be one reasonable way to have some nazis in the film for old times sake, but at the same time, NOT to make them the main villains (we wouldn't see any more nazis after the opening adventure.) Maybe Indy could be pitted against a rival archeaologist (played by Tom Selleck?) who wants to find Atlantis for some nefarious reasons.
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Old 06-24-2011, 02:15 PM   #22
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^I really like your idea of WW2 era prologue, but I take Spielberg at his word when he says he won't do Nazis again, which I would have to believe extends even to this context.

Can the audience now accept a "scaled down" Indy adventure where he ISN'T facing off a foreign military? I would love to see it myself. Can't he just go against a bunch of well-equipped mercenaries or something led by some kind of charismatic fanatic? Dunno....
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Old 06-24-2011, 07:23 PM   #23
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Wouldn't want the Nazis again but I like the ideas of the Nazis being onto something (not Atlantis thank you) but they lost war before they could do anything about it. Let's say they had found some kind of map device to... something.

In the aftermath, the device is seperated between the four nations occupying Germany (USA, UK, France and USSR) who take their pieces back home. America's section eventually ends up at the branch of the National Museum on the campus of Marshall College.

Some fifteen or so years later Dean Jones has an itch to scratch now that he's chasing paperwork. One night he catches a charismatic thief (who I'll name drop as Tom Selleck for the benefit of this post) breaking into the museum. However, the man manages to slip away with the map but for Indiana Jones the game is on.

This is why I don't write movies. But man, I wish Crystal Skull had kept Indy breaking his stuff out of the museum.
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Old 06-25-2011, 04:19 AM   #24
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^I really like your idea of WW2 era prologue, but I take Spielberg at his word when he says he won't do Nazis again, which I would have to believe extends even to this context.

Can the audience now accept a "scaled down" Indy adventure where he ISN'T facing off a foreign military? I would love to see it myself. Can't he just go against a bunch of well-equipped mercenaries or something led by some kind of charismatic fanatic? Dunno....

I think the natural progression is to take a leaf out of TOD's book and give us a more modern take (as in terms of cinematic use) on the thuggee cult... More modern in terms of suit and tie as opposed to face paint and daggers etc. a la Free Masons/illuminati. Not particularly original I know (following Dan Brown's books), but it would be fitting as Indy finds himself in the latter half of the 20th century i.e. the enemies within.
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Old 06-25-2011, 03:34 PM   #25
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Wouldn't want the Nazis again...
How about Neo Nazis?

Ed Norton could be a quality Villain...

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