Why do all the good threads get locked down?

Is there an area on this forum for any open discusion that can go one and not get locked down each time ren enters the thread bashing folks for having a differing opinion?

Are we men or mice ? Can folks not have a difference of opinion and still talk about it? What good is a forum that only allows people to talk if they agree? Can a new section be added here or is he current owners of this forum willing to take free server space I will donate and open a free for all discussion group?

This is bordering bizzare ( at least for me ) when intelligent and for that matter obviously non intelligent people try to have an intelligent discussion and it is locked each time due to the ones with no intelligence or respect or common courtsey butting in with with distorted facts and bashing the person they did not understand.

I, for one, am deeply hurt by Renderking. I've had a lot of rejection and criticism in in my life from people, no matter how nice I try to be. You'd think I'd be used to it by now. Guess not. I guess that'll teach me to express myself like any other decent human being has a right to. It's downright invalidating.

I'm taking a hiatus from the Raven as of now. If I can't be treated decently, there is no reason for me to express myself here. Disagreement is one thing; personal attacks are another. The pain is not worth it. It's enough to make me give up on humanity altogether.

Goodbye everyone.

The mods need to loosen up, and so do the posters here. I read and commented on the CF situation. Talk about overblowing an issue. Geez!

People in that thread seem to be extremely defensive about what I view as "phantom attacks", attacks that really aren't attacks at all.

And little gets resolved when the mods close a thread too soon. Loosen up on that trigger finger.

Four threads were locked in the past few days. Two involved political discussions which are not appropriate here at the Raven and have been discouraged. That is not to say they do not have there place or can not be discussed here. But they typically end in a situation where personal attacks become the basis for discussion. That is the reason the other two threads were closed. Personal attacks are fast approching a zero-tolerance policy here at the Raven.

Bear in mind, the moderating staff is reviewing the current events and closeings to ensure that the appropriate actions are being taken, both on behalf of the moderating staff and the members of the Raven Message board.

I sure did not know other topics excluded oter topics so I will not repeat this mistake. I fully concur with the staff that if you have "friendly" board where everone is only supposed to post on topiccs they agree on then a no bashing policy should be enforced. In fact I cannot understand why any one needs to bash any one in orderto debate any subject. I guess ia m really lost however when a thread gets closed due to people bashing other people. would it not be better for the person doing the bashing to be admonished and their post with bashing deleted and allow the topic to continue. I found the CF topic facinating and colorful, thoughtful and helpful in all its content EXCEPT for the bashing that occured. Why have forum if you have to close every thread that people really take an interest in? I said it before and I will say it again. I will gladly doneate free of charge server space and admin rights to any one including the current admin of this site for a forum space that is a bit looser. My God it is America that I live in and free speech is supposed to be an inherent right. My past experience is that the forum mods on oter forums have back door meetings and decide to ban me for speaking boldly and then they privatly message all the " main " members and tell them thier side of it all and then I never get to post any thing to rebutt it. While indyoligist is not banned , she still has no further oppertunity to defend her position. So I am behooved to ask yet again, if other topics is not for other topics then what is it for?

Now ever one has an oppertunity here to do the back door pm thing or to come out and make a statement . If you really believe you need a place to voice strong opinions you may should ask for it as did Indy Benson. If you never tell your desire then it sure will never be granted.

To quote another forum:

Pale Horse said:

<ul>
<li> All topics and posts must be related to Indiana Jones and the World of
Indiana Jones.</li>
<li>As a family-friendly board, we ask that you keep your language clean. If
you wouldn't say it in front of your dear old Grandma, you probably don't
want to say it here.</li>
<li>Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can
disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered
form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.</li>
<li>We cannot provide a comprehensive list of "Things Not To Say". Posts that
are contrary to the above policies, or to the intent of The Raven, may be
edited or deleted at our sole discretion. Membership may be revoked if such
a step is deemed necessary by us. We're a private venture enabled by an all-volunteer
staff. Please treat this venue as a polite discussion in a friend's home and
respect the wishes of the hosts. A note on FREE SPEECH: The Raven is private
property and requests that members adhere to all forum policies. It is a contract
agreed to by all who become members of The Raven. Those who break forum rules
cannot invoke censorship or freedom of speech - a contract broken is a contract
broken. If you do not like the rules of conduct or the acceptable topics,
seek out a new venue to frequent or start your own board. </li>
</ul>

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Our stance is clear.

Pale Horse said:

To quote another forum:



Our stance is clear.

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Your stance is very clear for the other sections of the forum but I find it rather confusing here:

Off Topic
Here you can talk with your fellow Indyfans about something completely different.

What is the Off topic section for if it is not for topics unrelated to Indy but among the forum users? Please ?

Pale Horse said:

Four threads were locked in the past few days. Two involved political discussions which are not appropriate here at the Raven and have been discouraged.

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I'm a somewhat interested spectator and am curious as to how this is going to turn out. Are these the four threads:
(1) the 'Indy: Democrat or Republican?" thread (which I think would have been interesting had it been limited to facts from the film and historical facts/influences up to and including 1938).
(2) the 'What About our President" thread.
(3) The GL/SP/HF visiting the Raven thread.
(4) The Child-Free Thread.

*After reviewing Ren's comments to me.

1) I think it is in the best interest of the forum for you and Charlie to find the things you can agree on, rather than the things that separate you. As the two of you work toward this here, the other members who read your posts will learn much about lids, and about the ability to look past differences.

2) The CF thread showed the Raven community another side of many members. They only thing I will say right now in response to that, is a quote from Eleanor Roosevelt: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." I think it applies to all sides of the discussion we were in.

3) Political debates (I enjoy them) draw deep lines in the sand. Yet even the most politically opposite men maintained a peacable discussion of politics, religion and philosophy through letters to each other. Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. If both sides here can maintain such a peacable and venerating relationship with another member whose ideas and beliefs may differ, than the political threads will stay open longer. The moderating staff is made up of conservative and liberal men and women, we all have to work together to do what is best for the Raven Community.

4) Attack the argument, not the arguer. "Rap is very divisive to our youth and their morals. The constant discord of syncopated rhythms and monotone lyrics creates disharmony in my home, and causes a restless spirit in my cat whenever I play it. My bonsai tree is dying from the constant rhythmic bass disrupting the root system. In addition, I find that the lyrics promote the self centered nature and insecurity that comes from a breakdown in the home either through divorce or death. I'd rather relax to a good Mancini album, rather than endure a constant musical assault on my moral code that come when I chose to listen to rap." That arguement is less likely to offend it's presenter than saying that "it s**ks!" We all know that.

But ultimately, everything above only represents my personal view of how to handle individual situations. As a moderator, I submit myself to an internal committee and member review. If I am now or have ever acted inappropriately, let myself, or a trusted member of the moderating staff know.

Pale Horse said:

"Rap is very divisive to our youth and their morals. The constant discord of syncopated rhythms and monotone lyrics creates disharmony in my home, and causes a restless spirit in my cat whenever I play it. My bonsai tree is dying from the constant rhythmic bass disrupting the root system. In addition, I find that the lyrics promote the self centered nature and insecurity that comes from a breakdown in the home either through divorce or death. I'd rather relax to a good Mancini album, rather than endure a constant musical assault on my moral code that come when I chose to listen to rap."

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If only all arguments could be so eloquent and yet so hilarious...

Pale Horse, I for one agree 100% with EVERY word you wrote on this post. I could only wish to not only write so well as you but to have it obviously come from the heart as well. Now I have wasted or spent half a day and my wife is complaining as she needs help getting 5 hats ready to ship out.

Regardless of what may come of me or anything elese here in future. I cannot retract these words.

Well put in every detail.

Good Posts all around -- and I especially like any reference to the big guys like Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.

Since things are verging on a Taster's-Choice-Moment-Between-Guys here, what's the chance of getting the "Indy -- Democrat or Republican?" thread opened, subject to content in the movies and history up to 1938?

Where's the love people?

Pale Horse said:

*
4) The constant discord of syncopated rhythms and monotone lyrics creates disharmony in my home, and causes a restless spirit in my cat whenever I play it.

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What? You play rap in your home? Loud? I always thought that you were too smart to listen to rap. You see, personally, I think that eventually, rap beats your brains out.

Tennessee R said:

What? You play rap in your home? Loud? I always thought that you were too smart to listen to rap. You see, personally, I think that eventually, rap beats your brains out.

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That commentary was a fictional arguement meant to demonstrate a point about effective arguing (though by no means is it an example of what is good.) I was being respectful of the original heart of the thread.

A true scholar is versed in all forms of communication

Joe Brody said:

Since things are verging on a Taster's-Choice-Moment-Between-Guys here, what's the chance of getting the "Indy -- Democrat or Republican?" thread opened, subject to content in the movies and history up to 1938?

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Sorry, but there are some taboos, and one of them is to mix Indiana Jones with politics. It's okay to discuss them separately and you can have your opinions about the political stance of our favorite man in the hat (which in many ways, I have a feeling, are nothing but a reflection of your own), but do not bring them out here. Trust me when I say that politics, no matter with what they're mixed and from what viewpoint they're looked at, can never be discussed with completely objective analyzes.

<small>Note people, the biggest reason here is actually between the brackets.</small>

<small>Greegah! Me moderator. You member. You very humble member now. Which part you didn't understand?</small>

And Ren... it happens to all of us. I bet many people of this world liked GWB better when he wasn't a president.

Finn said:

. . . .(which in many ways, I have a feeling, are nothing but a reflection of your own)

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O.K. Finn, I think that's totally unwarranted, and I'd like you to back that allegation up. Since you're so astute, I'd love to see you draw -- based on my many posts here -- a profile of my political beliefs AND instances where I've wrongly inserted my political opinions in an Indiana Jones related discussion. I've never been so sold short in my life and I'm not going to sit here and take it from the likes of you.

Frankly I'm tired of you and the change you've wrought to the atmosphere of this board since you've once again become a moderator. Your repeated bragging about how you manage to get away with things and how you have talked about viewing pornography on what is purportedly a family site. I don't know if you get it -- but as a moderator you're a quasi-role model figure here and some of your posts are flat out inappropriate.

Finn on the 'The Great Book Report Movie Thread' on July 15 said:

How many of you here actually have seen this thing [the Hilton Video] (and dare to admit it)?

I have. _0/

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I've stayed silent on this but as a member and a father, I think this and other conversations as a moderator are totally out of line. Kids read these posts and you may well be leading kids to seek out what you're referencing. I think this is doubly irresponsible because you've got a lot of knowledge and position yourself here as an authority. To make posts like the one above is out of line.

If my post here is the sort of thing that will get me banned or sanctioned then so be it. I stand by my posts here over the past ten months. If an entity like the Raven is going to keep punks like Finn on as a moderator then I don't want any part of it.

I do not know you Finn, Nor Brody, I do know Brody seems a nice guy and once ask where the love is. Where is the love? I am attacking th e argument here and not the arguing parties. Is it not ok for Finnto present him self in terms of what he post how ever he likes? Should we not attack his point of view if we do notagree with him and just send him pm if we do not agree with him personally ? Just a thought. Maybe I am too old to be on forums and maybe I am just out classed by smarter people than I.

Finn do you think you abuse your power as a MOD?
The other MODS do you think finn abuses his powers?

I am not saying I am just asking.

Without attacking Finn can any one tell me why they think Finn is abusing his postion here?

Ren, you're right. There are two Finns. There's a Finn who posts and there's a Finn who uses the moderation authority.

The Finn who posts may get over the top sometimes, but most of the time he's making fun of no one but his own intelligence. Especially you who have been here a loong time know this Finn. And you hardly complained.

Then there is now one new Finn, a Finn who has access to the tools of moderation. This Finn however kicks in only when he has to. This Finn's not a mad tyrant. He is not going to lock a single thread or edit a single post with no absolutely good reason.

There is one thing that bonds both Finns... they're standing behind their every word, even those that are jokes (and apparently lousy ones).

Ren, if I were to give you a <i>serious</i> note about something, would I imitate Tarzan speech?

I'm sarcastic. It lives in my nature. As far as I recall, the core idea of sarcasm (and irony) is to say the complete opposite of what you mean (Pale Horse or Deadlock, please confirm this so I'm not giving a wrong definition to the word). Please, don't raise a mess about what I say but what I do. If you notice mishaps there, in my serious mod notes or thread lockings (there's been some, I know), you can come to me or Gilles or the whole upkeep as much as you want. But please, do not pick on things I'm posting "off-duty".
---
And as Ren said, if you need to keep on discussing this, do it in the thread he pointed out. Now back on topic (of <i>this</i> thread).

Finn said:

There are two Finns. . . . .But please, do not pick on things I'm posting "off-duty".

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I couldn't diagree with that more. Every post you make has the moderator tag beside it. Mods are set apart with special Avatars. I say again: you are in a position of authority and every post you make reflects on this forum. I submit that you can't expect an eleven year old to appreciate the distinctions that you are trying to make. . . or to dwell on and dissect the finer points of sarcasm. And I say again, you as a moderator should be held to a doubly higher standard because you hold yourself as an authority. You have impressive knowledge and you frequently weigh-in on a wide range of topics. My hypothetical 11 eleven-year old is going to view a post from you differently than from the generic member here.